Civil discussion: Troubled Teen Industry

[Paul St. John]

Actually it has plenty more mileage.

Your part of it aren't you, The SICCO Operation. Well I am here to tell you your mileage is running out....lol.

No, I'm part of the non-isolated incident (NII) operation, as well as a proud member of the Village Green Preservation Society.

Frodie,  I love the Kinks. I too am a member. I cannot be a part of your (NII) operation it goes against our charter rules for SICCO.

Danny, you were at Elan...

A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.

A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery.  Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work.  her back is permanently disfigured.

A disfigured back

A dead boy

Isolated incidents, or are they connected.  They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.

Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics.  You know it to your fucking bones.  Face it!

Paul St. John

[Whooter]

You just seem to keep talking as though people are simply components that you plug into a pre-laid system, and it bothers me, because that is just not even close to how things work.  People have their own values, and more times then not, they will find a way to assert them.

Paul

.....and if they do assert them and it differs from the companies values they will be fired the same day.  We both know this.  If a company goes by the FIFO (First in first out) system and the new accountant reports on LIFO (Last in first out) then he will be retrained or fired.  If Home Depot puts their Lawnmowers out front and the guy they hired from Lowes decides he likes Gas Grills out there instead he wont last too long.  If Aspen Ranch hires a guy from Spring Creek Lodge and he spends the weekend constructing a Hobbit 40 yards outside the boys dorm he is likely to be fired.

The new employees need to conform to the new place of business and understand how they work there (not the other way around) or they will not last.



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[Paul St. John]

No one actually said that. Ursus, explicitly said, that he was not saying that.. It's more that it is just something worth mentioning...

So what is the point, Paul?  If a person that is Jewish is hired does that mean it becomes a Jewish based program?  Why isn't this ever worth mentioning?
 Should we point this out every-time?  There were thousands of accountants from Enron that left to get other jobs.  Are all those companies now tainted somehow because they employ ex-Enron employees?  Should this be pointed out to imply that their new company will follow the same path that Enron did?

It amazes me that you don't see this.

...

There is nothing to see. A lot of what was done in Enron was by the few, and in secret.  In the programs, it was done by the many.. It was policy, and it was not a secret.

Paul

[Whooter]

Whooter, before, I respond to this..

Are you or are you not aware, that you are taking what I said out of context?

Paul

I don't see that I am taking it out of context.  It actually amazes me that people actually believe this.  Companies work Extremely hard to define and build a solid bases for their product and control the quality of their output. A couple of people and their screwy ideals will not change or jeopardize this design.

Do you think a guy working at McDonalds can just show up one day and say "Hey I picked up these Turkey Burgers on the way in tonight, lets try them out on the Big Macs and see how people like them?"


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[Paul St. John]

You just seem to keep talking as though people are simply components that you plug into a pre-laid system, and it bothers me, because that is just not even close to how things work.  People have their own values, and more times then not, they will find a way to assert them.

Paul

.....and if they do assert them and it differs from the companies values they will be fired the same day.  We both know this.  If a company goes by the FIFO (First in first out) system and the new accountant reports on LIFO (Last in first out) then he will be retrained or fired.  If Home Depot puts their Lawnmowers out front and the guy they hired from Lowes decides he likes Gas Grills out there instead he wont last too long.  If Aspen Ranch hires a guy from Spring Creek Lodge and he spends the weekend constructing a Hobbit 40 yards outside the boys dorm he is likely to be fired.

The new employees need to conform to the new place of business and understand how they work there (not the other way around) or they will not last.



...

For the most part, I agree with you, but it all depends on a few things...


The first is whether or not this new program is really all that different in orientation to begin with.  We are assuming that it is here, but that is really part of what is questioned.  Why did they choose to hire this person.. Again, in my mind, the difference between hurting and helping people is bigger then where you put the lawnmowers, and whether or not you use special sauce.

The second has to do with just how large the company is.. It ia very large well-defined company or not so much so..

Because, if it is very large, there is a question as to how often the head honchos pushing the culture poke their head in...
If it is not that large, and the head guy is always there, it is a question as to how strong this person's will is, and whether or not, they have as much experience as the new bad seed counselor.  Can the head person be swayed, because prgram people of the breed that I familiar are master swayers.



and now, I d like to just make a point.. I can t tell you how much a person's attitude can subtly spread across a single location of any company.  If a person, in their heart hates kids, I swear to you, that if they are not fired, their attitude can spread, to an extent, and will.

[Paul St. John]

Whooter, before, I respond to this..

Are you or are you not aware, that you are taking what I said out of context?

Paul

I don't see that I am taking it out of context.  It actually amazes me that people actually believe this.  Companies work Extremely hard to define and build a solid bases for their product and control the quality of their output. A couple of people and their screwy ideals will not change or jeopardize this design.

Do you think a guy working at McDonalds can just show up one day and say "Hey I picked up these Turkey Burgers on the way in tonight, lets try them out on the Big Macs and see how people like them?"


...

LOL!  Whooter, we are not talking about McDonald's.  They have been defining their culture for quite some time, but it would not amaze me, if in their first few years, things just as you said, did in fact happen.  Although, I don t think that they had turkey burgers then..


Paul

[Paul St. John]

You just seem to keep talking as though people are simply components that you plug into a pre-laid system, and it bothers me, because that is just not even close to how things work.  People have their own values, and more times then not, they will find a way to assert them.

Paul

So based on your thinking why close down Spring Creek Lodge?  Why not keep all the employees employed except one and replace that one with a person right out of school who has great moral values.  This way the whole culture will change at Spring Creek Lodge and the good of this one person will spread.
Would the average fornits poster then agree that Spring Creek Lodge would be free from abuse?



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Since, you do not think that you are taking it out of context, I will respond to it..

First of all, I said "could"..

second of all, I said "raise the tone quite a bit"..

Thirdly, it is easier for a bad person to break down synergy, towards a purpose, or value-representation, then it is for a good person to bring about positive change..

Creation is very difficult.... Destruction is very easy.

Paul

[Paul St. John]

Gotta crash, Whooter.. I will have to respond to anything else tomorrow.

[Whooter]

I am sure that the people at CEDU didnt pre screen their employees to find only those who hated kids.  They probably convinced really good people that their tough love approach was helpful.  I dont think that you could convince any rational person that all the employees were evil.  How would you screen for that?



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[DannyB II]

Paul wrote:

Since, you do not think that you are taking it out of context, I will respond to it..

First of all, I said "could"..

second of all, I said "raise the tone quite a bit"..

Thirdly, it is easier for a bad person to break down synergy, towards a purpose, or value-representation, then it is for a good person to bring about positive change..

Creation is very difficult.... Destruction is very easy.

Paul

Paul this would be a "isolated incident" this one bad person purposely being destructive. This is what I am talking about. I don't believe they sit down and have staff meeting and discuss how they are willingly and knowingly going to abuse the kids this week. I do see that one staff member with psychological problems could go out for that week and create problems. (Isolated Incident)

[Whooter]

Since, you do not think that you are taking it out of context, I will respond to it..

First of all, I said "could"..

second of all, I said "raise the tone quite a bit"..

Thirdly, it is easier for a bad person to break down synergy, towards a purpose, or value-representation, then it is for a good person to bring about positive change..

Creation is very difficult.... Destruction is very easy.

Paul

Well, you make a good point, something to think about.  Good talking to you.  We can catch up later have a good night.



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[DannyB II]

Paul wrote:
 
Danny, you were at Elan...

A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.

A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery.  Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work.  her back is permanently disfigured.

A disfigured back

A dead boy

Isolated incidents, or are they connected.  They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.

Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics.  You know it to your fucking bones.  Face it!

Paul St. John

Paul before we go to far into this particular conversation you must know my position on these incidents. First off the gentleman who died in the ring I have yet to corroborate this story with anyone that speaks with credibility. If you can find people who can fine but I will remain neutral on this one for now. This lady with the disfigured back, once again I can not find anyone to corroborate the story.
Paul I'm sorry to say this and will probably take a beating but as far as Elan is concerned there has been so much embellishment to so many stories that I don't have much faith.
That being said, Yes there was abuse at Elan.
Just a normal day of operation would have been abusive, do to the screaming and hollering that went on. Haircuts eg: verbal criticism for something you did wrong shouted at you by four or five people ( even for minor infractions), group therapy eg: encounter groups either being involved screaming at another or just witnessing this.
Paul everyone you have spoken to that went to Elan, knowingly and willingly participated in the abuse in one way or another. Your right at Elan it was not a isolated experience insofar as day to day operations and every house was the same to one degree or another. All of us were involved in this craziness yet there was a part of all of us that wanted it to stop but we were helpless to do it.
Sounds very sad doesn't it, it does.
The employees were fucked from the beginning because they really weren't employees, we were still residents but with a stipend. Joe still treated us no different. None of us Marty, Peter, Jeffery, Marc ect.....He controled you.
So Paul yes and no on the isolated Incident theory concerning Elan, "yes" Elan was a "Isolated Incident" to the extent that Joe controlled everything and "no" as to the many houses Elan had and they were all abusive.

[Son Of Serbia]

I am sure that the people at CEDU didnt pre screen their employees to find only those who hated kids.  They probably convinced really good people that their tough love approach was helpful.  I dont think that you could convince any rational person that all the employees were evil.  How would you screen for that?



...

@ Whooter - It's painfully obvious that Cedu did no meaningful pre-employment screening whatsoever.  Cedu gladly hired anyone who was desperate enough to work for the crummy $9.00 per hour they were offering.  Want proof?  Anyone remember James Crummel?  He was a lifelong serial child rapist & murderer who worked at Cedu RS for almost 3 years during the mid 1990's.  At the time he started working at Cedu, Crummel had already served several prison sentences for child molesting & manslaughter - and had a criminal history spanning over 3 decades!  Of course nobody at Cedu bothered to check Crummel out before giving him a job - they just figured he's a regular guy who'd fit right in.  How typical of Cedu.  The result? At least one student: Blake Presley, disappeared without a trace during the time Crummel worked at Cedu.  Coincidence? The police don't seem to think so.  Crummel is now the prime suspect in Blake Presley's disappearance, a case that remains unsolved after some 15 years.  After his employment at Cedu, James Crummel was convicted of three more murders and is currently on death row awaiting execution.

[Paul St. John]

Paul wrote:
 
Danny, you were at Elan...

A person complains of a headache due to an actual medical condition, they get put in a ring to get their head beat in, and they die.

A person has a severe back problem. A doctor notifies Elan that this person requires surgery.  Instead of surgery, this person is focred to do all sorts of "back-breaking" work.  her back is permanently disfigured.

A disfigured back

A dead boy

Isolated incidents, or are they connected.  They are connected by the mental illness of those who ran the facility.

Danny, you know that the majority of the stories told on this site are by no motherfucking means, isolated incidents. It does not require logic, debate, or semantics.  You know it to your fucking bones.  Face it!

Paul St. John

Paul before we go to far into this particular conversation you must know my position on these incidents. First off the gentleman who died in the ring I have yet to corroborate this story with anyone that speaks with credibility.

I have been hearing the story since I first started looking into all this shit about 9 years ago.. I can t say that I know for sure, but I think that even you can agree that the odds are that it is true.


 If you can find people who can fine but I will remain neutral on this one for now. This lady with the disfigured back, once again I can not find anyone to corroborate the story.

I have found three, and they are all credible.  They tell the story with such emotion too.  One of the people who told me about it is the person it happened too.  I told ya I don t gamble, and I d bet ya this one's true.  I believe it as if I had seen myself


Paul I'm sorry to say this and will probably take a beating but as far as Elan is concerned there has been so much embellishment to so many stories that I don't have much faith.
That being said, Yes there was abuse at Elan.
Just a normal day of operation would have been abusive, do to the screaming and hollering that went on. Haircuts eg: verbal criticism for something you did wrong shouted at you by four or five people ( even for minor infractions), group therapy eg: encounter groups either being involved screaming at another or just witnessing this.

All these things that you mention occurred at Daytop, and worse.(1994)  If you did something considered bad enough, you'd get your haircut in front of the whole "family", and anyone who wanted to, got a turn... you could get screamed at for over an hour.  Far worse thing happened at Elan, and you know it.



Paul everyone you have spoken to that went to Elan, knowingly and willingly participated in the abuse in one way or another.

What is meant by "willingly"?


 Your right at Elan it was not a isolated experience insofar as day to day operations and every house was the same to one degree or another. All of us were involved in this craziness yet there was a part of all of us that wanted it to stop but we were helpless to do it.
Sounds very sad doesn't it, it does.
The employees were fucked from the beginning because they really weren't employees, we were still residents but with a stipend. Joe still treated us no different. None of us Marty, Peter, Jeffery, Marc ect.....He controled you.

Someday, you will have to take responsibility, Danny...


So Paul yes and no on the isolated Incident theory concerning Elan, "yes" Elan was a "Isolated Incident" to the extent that Joe controlled everything and "no" as to the many houses Elan had and they were all abusive.

Your response was kinda weird.. but what I take from it is that you are admitting that abuse was not an isolated incident, but rather the norm at Elan.

But you do think that Elan, itself , was an isolated incident as far as an abusive program, and that this is due to Joe Ricci's controlling everything.


Well, I am, at least glad that we have established that much.  

At Elan, abuse was not an isolated incident.

You just haven t accepted that Elan wasn t the only one.  In case, you haven t noticed, there are a lot of sections to Fornits.  I d bet there are sure a lot of people who would disagree with you.

Paul

[Dr. Acula]

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