12 steps

[DannyB II]

I have a question for people who attended alcoholic anonymous meetings.  Do licensed chemical dependency counselors oversee these meetings?

Not where i am from. But in fairness i have heard that some 12 step based treatment centres have more professional staff

Joel are you really this naive, I mean this is what I have to deal with here. Joel just a few months ago you were such the scholar on AA. You knew about everything to do with AA. You argued, posted surveys, studies and quotes from the OJ papers.
The truth will always prevail. :roflmao:

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Anne Bonney]

Ok, again. If you criticize AA then there must be something wrong with you, right?

Exactly!!!!  He cannot handle anyone daring to say anything disparaging about his beloved program.

I have tried more then most to understand why Anne, yourself and others have this outdated idea of AA.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

Bull-fucking-shit!!!!!!

No you haven't.  You just believe that we're wrong about AA and you're bound and determined to try and help us "see the light".  (Proselytizing to an evangelical extreme)


 

As I have said to Anne, Ginger you carry your baggage and try to pass this off with a intellectual argument from Dr. Robert J. Lifton.

What??  Lifton was talking about thought reform, not specifically AA.....it just happens that AA has a lot of the characteristics of cult-like entities.

Well I am sure if Dr. Lifton included your bias in his essay then we would get a objective opinion

What?
.

7) Doctrine over Person
  If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to
  feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always
  "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the
  questions answered directly.
http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf

Nice try Ginger, why are you acting like you are in denial of what you and your site does to folks who don't agree with you.

There's that "D" word again.  The fact is, Danny, that many of the people who frequent Fornits HAVE been damaged by either programs, AA or both.  I know that threatens your entire belief system, but it's true.

You post here trying to be genuine in your rebuttal but really you are not because you can't get past your anger at AA.

Not speaking for Ginger, but there's a difference between still being angry and trying to educate people regarding things about AA that they won't tell you.

Your stuck Ginger and have been for years.

Projection again!  (And it's the contraction," you're"....as in" you are")  :deal:

Invited to meetings, no one is invited.

What???  Are you serious???  I was invited to plenty of meetings.  

This is what the problem is here is all this misrepresentation of AA and what AA is about. You clearly have no idea, just because some folks in your family are affiliated with AA, does not mean you can ride shot-gun and understand the complexities.

Well, there's her own experience combined with a dozen or so years of research.  

Ginger you really have no idea, I am beginning to be believe that you are one lazy individual who one has never worked on herself (so easy to blame others)

Again.....if someone complains about AA then there must be something wrong with them, because AA is perfect in every way!!  

and has yet to identify your own bio.

Why do you keep demanding to know everyone's "bio" while refusing to disclose yours?  Did you tie a girl to a van and drag her around as punishment while working at Elan?

The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.

This stopped being true many years ago, just keep reading.

How would you know?  You've only been here for, what, a year or less?

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[DannyB II]

"Anne Bonney" wrote:
A lot of us have been damaged by AA & you're dismissal & mocking of it says quite a bit. I guess that's that famous AA compassion.

No Anne you were damaged by a treatment facility called Straight INc, that used a twisted concept of the 12 steps as it's behavioral method. You left Straight damaged, tried attending AA on the outside, found that you were not a Alcoholic and made a decision to not attend. Found fornits several years later where you heard folks bashing AA and jumped on the band wagon.
How am I doing so far.....

Not well.  You make up reasons for my disdain for AA because it threatens your viewpoint.  

Anne I quoted everything I said from your posts. Don't you remember anything you say. Oh, I know when I say it back to you, it does not sound familar.  Ya I get it.

[/color]  



 

Yes Anne you are right there are a few people here that agree with your total dramatic version of AA.

 And there are a few people here that think AA is the be-all, end-all....the salvation, such as yourself.

No Anne just you, Anne this is all you baby, all your perceptions from your damaged emotions. I feel for ya.
You are right about one thing, if AA was like they way you describe it I would not have had anything to do with it.  

[/color]

It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do.

No Anne only you and would you please back up this comment with some hard facts, please.
No never mind, I'll just go with your warped mind, for statistics.

You're a perfect example Danny.  You absolutely cannot tolerate any criticism of AA at all.  You pretty much go off the deep end whenever someone points out the faults of AA.

Anne are you looking in a mirror right now, if not, reach inside your purse pull one out and look at yourself. Yes the person looking back is who you are talking about, stop projecting your crap on me.

[/color]

As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.

Jeesh Anne if you were so secure in your belief that AA is damaging, why do you feel compelled to call people names and try to disrespect people who post with positive comments.

I don't call people names because they believe in AA.....I call YOU names because you're rude and treat people who disagree with you as if you're still 'on staff'.

Anne we have covered this before, if you want to call me names and fuck with me, then my rebuttal with be with as much force that I can muster, It will feel like you just got ran over.
Oh and btw I am not/was not staff and as DJ pointed out (Not meant to be offensive DJ, just like your example)I was never a professional employee. Thanks DJ, I believe that had been my point all along.
So please let Sharon and Felice handle that department, Anne.

[/color]  

 

I don't care if someone goes to AA & finds it helpful. What I DO have a problem with is how much its infiltrated the 'treatment' industry & how evangelistic its become.

Anne you are a little late for this campaign, it was 30 years ago, girl. Oh btw AA is 75 years old as of a couple of days ago. So we have been doing it a while.

 
Uh huh.....that's pretty much my point.  They've infiltrated the entire treatment industry, despite their own findings of a "success" rate of 5%.

Bla, Bla, Bla....AA only has 5% success rate, who gives a shit, I don't. I was reading this with about 10 other folks who are affiliated with AA and we just laugh. Nobody, I mean nobody really cares about the shit that you do.
Surveys, success rates, ect.....AA is one Alcoholic helping another with the 12 steps. That's it, all this other bullshit is for you folks to haggle about.
I came in about 22 years ago, I sat for 3 days with 15 other members I have know for all of that time. They have went to college, excelled in their jobs, had children, bought houses, started businesses ect.......
 
Anne you are a sad bitter women when it comes to AA, who has not figured out how to shun her resentments so they leak out all over this site. Your in good company, your feeling are validated and you have support. Continue using your intellect as a crutch for your other short comings, once again your in good company.
I am surprised you have not quoted the OJ papers are another Doctor, as your buddy Ginger loves to do. Better to quote outside/detached sources then to actually share your experiences. To vulnerable I guess.
Good luck....

[DannyB II]

Danny,

Listen here!  When  Anne Bonney says "jump" you will respond "how high?'  Do you understand Mr. Bennison?  :roflmao:

Joel please, are you looking to get your ass handed to you again like they did at Eckels. When are you finally going to get honest about how you got your ass jacked up at that facility in Rhode Island.
As I heard the story, Mr.Tuff guy here tried to pull his shit there and had his ass handed to him. This I believe was part of the reason you had to go. Mr. I understand from working at these places how it works.
So keep correcting my English there dude and if you have any free time, please explain the above. Oh and do you know a former Staff by the name of Bob, Joel. He sure knows alot about you.
Just say'in, Joel.

[DannyB II]

Ok, again. If you criticize AA then there must be something wrong with you, right?

Exactly!!!!  He cannot handle anyone daring to say anything disparaging about his beloved program.

Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.

[/color]

I have tried more then most to understand why Anne, yourself and others have this outdated idea of AA.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

Bull-fucking-shit!!!!!!

No you haven't.  You just believe that we're wrong about AA and you're bound and determined to try and help us "see the light".  (Proselytizing to an evangelical extreme)

Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.

[/color]

 

As I have said to Anne, Ginger you carry your baggage and try to pass this off with a intellectual argument from Dr. Robert J. Lifton.

What??  Lifton was talking about thought reform, not specifically AA.....it just happens that AA has a lot of the characteristics of cult-like entities.

Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.

[/color]

Well I am sure if Dr. Lifton included your bias in his essay then we would get a objective opinion

What?

Exactly, haven't a clue.

[/color]
.

7) Doctrine over Person
  If one questions the beliefs of the group or the leaders of the group, one is made to
  feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to even question -- it is always
  "turned around" on them and the questioner/criticizer is questioned rather than the
  questions answered directly.
http://www.cultrecover.com/pdfs/lifton8criteria.pdf

Nice try Ginger, why are you acting like you are in denial of what you and your site does to folks who don't agree with you.

There's that "D" word again.  The fact is, Danny, that many of the people who frequent Fornits HAVE been damaged by either programs, AA or both.  I know that threatens your entire belief system, but it's true.

Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.

[/color]

You post here trying to be genuine in your rebuttal but really you are not because you can't get past your anger at AA.

Not speaking for Ginger, but there's a difference between still being angry and trying to educate people regarding things about AA that they won't tell you.

Well you are speaking for Ginger, the only time your not is when your mouth is on her ass.

Your stuck Ginger and have been for years.

Projection again!  (And it's the contraction," you're"....as in" you are")  :deal:

Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.

[/color]

Invited to meetings, no one is invited.

What???  Are you serious???  I was invited to plenty of meetings.

Your a idiot, this does not even deserve anymore elaboration.

 
 

This is what the problem is here is all this misrepresentation of AA and what AA is about. You clearly have no idea, just because some folks in your family are affiliated with AA, does not mean you can ride shot-gun and understand the complexities.

Well, there's her own experience combined with a dozen or so years of research.

Who in the fuck are you kidding....you have now entered into the stupid zone.
First off she has no personal experience she is riding her brothers coattails on this one and there is no research to research, why is it that you can be such a ditz.
Anne dust yourself off, go get a shot and grab a joint and please get the fuck out of this conversation.

[/color]

Ginger you really have no idea, I am beginning to be believe that you are one lazy individual who one has never worked on herself (so easy to blame others)

Again.....if someone complains about AA then there must be something wrong with them, because AA is perfect in every way!!  

Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.

[/color]

and has yet to identify your own bio.

Why do you keep demanding to know everyone's "bio" while refusing to disclose yours?  Did you tie a girl to a van and drag her around as punishment while working at Elan?

I don't know, were you actually auditioning your ass and propositioning guys here on fornits, to get laid or are you just that disrespectful to your husband on purpose.
I think you are what you always have been a girl who loves to sell it.
Just say'in

.[/color]

The thing to remember is that all posters speak only for themselves and not any "group" regarding their beliefs about A.A., religion, Mothman, or any thing else. There is no "fornits posters" belief system.

This stopped being true many years ago, just keep reading.

How would you know?  You've only been here for, what, a year or less?

Are you so sure of that, Anne. Not many posters here would agree with you.
Been around for a while, Annie girl.

[/color]

Last note:
Hey Anne, get off your knees please, Ginger can polish her own ass.
This post was directed at her and is between her and I.
We have our own conversation, dumbass.

[Ursus]

Danny,

Listen here!  When  Anne Bonney says "jump" you will respond "how high?'  Do you understand Mr. Bennison?  :roflmao:

Joel please, are you looking to get your ass handed to you again like they did at Eckels. When are you finally going to get honest about how you got your ass jacked up at that facility in Rhode Island.
As I heard the story, Mr.Tuff guy here tried to pull his shit there and had his ass handed to him. This I believe was part of the reason you had to go. Mr. I understand from working at these places how it works.
So keep correcting my English there dude and if you have any free time, please explain the above. Oh and do you know a former Staff by the name of Bob, Joel. He sure knows alot about you.
Just say'in, Joel.

Danny, every program has someone working there by the name of "Bob." You should think of a less frequently used name. Like... "John."

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Anne Bonney]

Hey Anne, get off your knees please, Ginger can polish her own ass.
This post was directed at her and is between her and I.
We have our own conversation, dumbass.

Oh, fuck you.  You jump in on my conversations with other people all the time.

[Anne Bonney]

No Anne just you, Anne this is all you baby, all your perceptions from your damaged emotions. I feel for ya.  

Yeah, that's why you're arguing with quite a few of us here about AA.....because I'm the only one who feels that it's a sham.  Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggghhhhht.

It really seems to bother so many AAers that not everyone sees it as the savior they do.

No Anne only you and would you please back up this comment with some hard facts, please.
No never mind, I'll just go with your warped mind, for statistics.

The fact that you get so upset when we criticize AA is the "back up".  Do YOU not remember what you've said?
 

Anne are you looking in a mirror right now, if not, reach inside your purse pull one out and look at yourself. Yes the person looking back is who you are talking about, stop projecting your crap on me.

You're a perfect example Danny.  You absolutely cannot tolerate any criticism of AA at all.  You pretty much go off the deep end whenever someone points out the faults of AA.

As with religion, if you're secure in your beliefs about it then something some anonymous person posts on a message board shouldn't bother them as much as it apparently does.

Jeesh Anne if you were so secure in your belief that AA is damaging, why do you feel compelled to call people names and try to disrespect people who post with positive comments.

You're pretty much the only one I call names and that's because you're just an asshole...not because you think AA is some kind of savior of the people.
 
 

Anne we have covered this before, if you want to call me names and fuck with me, then my rebuttal with be with as much force that I can muster, It will feel like you just got ran over.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:



 

Oh and btw I am not/was not staff and as DJ pointed out (Not meant to be offensive DJ, just like your example)I was never a professional employee. Thanks DJ, I believe that had been my point all along.
So please let Sharon and Felice handle that department, Anne.

Didn't you brag about being an Assistant Director?

Bla, Bla, Bla....AA only has 5% success rate, who gives a shit, I don't.

Obviously.  You don't care about pesky facts....you only know what you "believe" and you mistake your "belief" for absolute truth.


 

I was reading this with about 10 other folks who are affiliated with AA and we just laugh. Nobody, I mean nobody really cares about the shit that you do.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:   You damn well DO care or you wouldn't waste so much of your time here defending your savior.

Surveys, success rates, ect.....AA is one Alcoholic helping another with the 12 steps. That's it, all this other bullshit is for you folks to haggle about.

That statistic came directly from AA's own study, moron.


 

Anne you are a sad bitter women when it comes to AA,

Yup...I am.  I hate shams that take advantage of vulnerable people.

I am surprised you have not quoted the OJ papers are another Doctor, as your buddy Ginger loves to do.

I have....you just choose to ignore actual research.

Better to quote outside/detached sources then to actually share your experiences. To vulnerable I guess.
Good luck....

Can you not read???  I've "shared" my experiences with AA and the various forms of it....OA, GA, SA, etc. etc. etc.  Why don't you get to another Warrior meeting.....sounds like you need it.

[Ursus]

Oh and btw I am not/was not staff and as DJ pointed out (Not meant to be offensive DJ, just like your example)I was never a professional employee. Thanks DJ, I believe that had been my point all along.

Really? Then what are we to make of these other statements you have also made:

Originally posted on Thu Dec 10, 2009:

I was an ex-staff and Director and I have experienced some hostility from ex-residents. Now to be honest I can't say I have handeled the conversations well especially the passionate ones. Now I was 17,18 and 19 when I was staff...

Originally posted on 11 Mar 2010:

The other fact here Felice you knew I was a Director  so what is your fucking point.

Originally posted on 15 Mar 2010:

...I was Staff from 3/77 - 1/78 then I became a Ass. Director 1/78 - 11/78.

Originally posted on 17 Mar 2010:

...I also worked in Parsonfield back when Peter McCann was director, it was Rick Rosenhaus, Larry Smaller, Peter and myself. When did these riots happen? I was the Ass. Director of Elan 7...

Originally posted on 03 Jun 2010:

Jeesh is a staff/Ass. Director not supposed to say these things, wow does this mean I am abusing you. Please tell me the rules because I am going to break them all...

Originally posted on 19 Jun 2010:

Awake I know you have found the Double Bind Phenomenon and this is a great piece of info yet does it apply in all TC's without exception. I found at Elan it really depended on the Director  and staff, this could change found house to house, at least while I was a employee.

Originally posted on 20 Jun 2010:

Elan 4 was a lock down facility, with a electric lock switch controlled in the staff office. The mens and womens dorms were upstairs. I don't remember any cells being upstairs on either floor.
I worked there for 14 months from 10/76 till 2/78 with Peter McCann Director, Rick Rosenhaus Assistant Director, Larry Smaller, Steve Smith and myself as staff...

Originally posted on Sat Jul 03, 2010 (elanalum.com):

Thank you very much, My name is Daniel L. Bennison, I was in Elan from 6/75-1/77, Staff 1/77-2/78, Ass.Director 2/78-11/78. Worked with Marty, Jeff, Peter, Marc R., Rick R., Ken Z., Janet R. ect..... So there is enough folks to validate my employment and residency.
Fornits is much different then this site and I have always respected this site for it's authenticity and its commitment to Elan people.
If more Elan folks would just come here and share there thoughts, opinions no matter what they are and stay away from bashing one another, I believe they would find healing here through others words.

danny

[/list]

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Awake]

I posted a couple of things on the double bind and A.A. over here.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=30
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30423&start=45  .

It may be relevant to the conversation on this thread. One argument against A.A. that I have is, is it acceptable to prescribe, or enforce a process of therapy that relies on maintaining lies, or a false interpretation of itself in order to achieve therapeutic results? If, when the reasons for success are openly shown, the process does not really work, can we classify it as treatment?

"…the alcoholic finds himself, no matter what he does, in a double bind: if he does not drink, has he really won? Or rather, has he lost because he has avoided the provocation?.....


How does the alcoholic in his contact with A.A., come to accept a definitive complementary position vis a vis the bottle? According to Bateson, the philosophy of A.A. is that an alcoholic can be helped ONLY when he has hit the very bottom, and has been reduced to the point of asking for help. Only then can he accept the humiliating sentence of A.A.: Once an alcoholic, always and alcoholic…..


In this insistence that the alcoholic touch the bottom before coming for help, and therefore in the explicit prescription that he do so, we can recognize the essential thrust used by A.A. to change the alcoholic. This time it is against A.A. that the alcoholic has to measure himself IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE THE FALSENESS OF THE HUMILIATING SENTENCE. In order to succeed he has only one choice: He will no longer be an alcoholic. He thus becomes symmetric in regard to the clear definition A.A. has given of him: Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. He accepts the complementary position in relation to the bottle in order to be symmetric with the definition (to reject it).


The therapeutic paradox consists of having forced the alcoholic to adopt the following position: “To show you (A.A.) that you are wrong, that is, that I won’t always be an alcoholic like you say, I don’t care anymore about the bottle. We can even say it is stronger than I am, that doesn’t matter. The important thing is that I show you that I am not what you say I am: always an alcoholic. ”….


Paradox and Counter-Paradox
A New Model in the Therapy of the Family in Schizophrenic Transaction.
c1978 Palazzoli”

[reformed12stepper]

yeah i found the once an addict always an addict thing a bit much. i prefer to define myself as someone who used to do drugs but who now does not. I think defining yourself as an addict is kind of limiting. But my real issue is that there can be a 1 size fits all approach. Like one thing i found genuinely useful was the idea of a moral inventory and i guess embracing humility as i can be a bit of an arrogant asshole at times. But i met a woman in rehab (it was not 12 step based) who found that more of a hinderance as she had like zero confidence. So 12 steps was totally inappropriate for her. She was also made to feel like she lacked appropriate commitment