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Offline Stonewall

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How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« on: June 18, 2010, 11:05:33 PM »
How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey

There was a time when Turkey was a modern example to the rest of the Muslim world. And there was one fundamental reason for that. It was because Turkey realized that it could either be a backward Muslim colony of Europe, or it could put Islam in its place, and reform in order to try to keep up with Europe. And there is also a fundamental reason why that brand of reform has not come to the rest of the Muslim world. It is because they never had to learn that same lesson.

While the Ottoman Empire had once threatened Europe when both were getting by on the remnants of skills and knowledge from the Roman days, but as Europe progressed, the conquerors of Byzantium could not keep up. And so the Ottoman Empire became the Sick Man of Europe, and the nations of Europe fought major wars over who would have first dibs on carving up its territory. The last of those conflicts was World War I. And so Turkey was faced with a decision. To try and compete with Europe by becoming like the Europeans, or becoming just another colony.

But while Turkey modernized, the Muslim nations of the Middle East instead followed a completely different paradigm. And they succeeded for two reasons. Oil. And the willingness of First and Second World powers to pander to them. Where Turkey had to learn to do things the hard way, to separate mosque from state and try to build modern institutions, a bunch of backward desert sheiks were lucky enough to take control of barren regions where infidel geologists found oil. Those sheiks were also lucky enough to stumble into a perfect era of infidel infighting that allowed them to play Americans against the Europeans against the Russians. Not long after the sheiks had more money than they could count, which meant that they didn't need to modernize, instead they could buy all the American and European technology they wanted, and even import actual Americans and Europeans to do the work for them.

Of course the Saudi, Emirati or Kuwaiti way was none too feasible for Muslim countries without a whole lot of oil under their feet-- but that didn't matter. Because money bought them a whole lot of cultural warfare. While US troops guarded the fat sheiks from any neighbors who were investing their money into building a military-- the Saudis spent their money on foreign investments and on building up the Islamic takeover of Europe and America. Where post-war terrorism by Muslims had begun as Soviet proxy attacks on Britain, America and Israel-- it discarded its red Marxist outer shell to reveal its green Islamist interior. Not long after the the USSR fell, Middle Eastern terrorism was swiftly taking on a wholly Islamist coloration. A coloration heavily funded by oil money.

The Saudi model showed that modernization did not require modern thinking. It showed that Muslim countries could still be Islamist, and still have all the benefits of modern living. All it took was money. While Turkey was busy being Europe's backward cousin, the Saudis were gorging themselves on Western delicacies, importing foreign architects and landscape planners, models, entertainers and huge numbers of slaves from Southeast Asia. In doing so they made their larger point, which is that Western civilization was a commodity that could be bought, and that it was possible to have it all, the raw meat of Islam and the fruits of the West on one plate. Western civilization was for sale.

Turkey had reformed because civilization had proven to be the strong horse, and Islam the weak horse. When the balance shifted, civilization was revealed as the weak force, and Islam as the strong force. And not only did we not try to turn the tide, our governments affirmed this with everything they did, both in their domestic policies toward Muslim immigrants, and their foreign policy toward Muslim nations. Call it appeasement or dhimmism, what they did not only devalued them individually and nationally, it devalued the very idea that civilization was superior to medieval barbarism, and destroyed the very forces that might have modernized the Muslim world.

A generation later, the tide of Muslim immigrants to Europe learned the same lesson as well. After some initial fuss about integration, they could also combine Islamism and Western civilization. It was possible for them to be doctors, dentists, lords and engineers-- while at the same time believing they had a duty to force their new hosts to bow to the god of Islam, first seen by Mohammed on a three day bender in the desert. And if they had any qualms about it, their local petrodollar mosques were sure to fix that. And if not them, then their children.

Turkish guest workers saw this all firsthand. Which made the idea that Turkey had to be secular in order for Turks to benefit from the modern world seem all the more absurd. That sort of thinking might have made sense back in the day when Her Majesty's Armies were administering an empire, but not when Islamist preachers were hectoring the masses and jeering at returning soldiers in the heart of her kingdom.

Western civilization had not only shown itself to be for sale, but its secularism and modernity were instead revealed to be weaknesses. Any Muslim in Europe could not help but realize that it was the very lack of principles that made it so ripe for the plucking. The way of Ataturk had ceased to make sense. The way of the House of Saud on the other hand was looking pretty good. Or even the Way of Bin Laden.

European tolerance for Islam eliminated any real reason for Turkey not to become Islamist. As Erdogan has demonstrated, it is possible to run a country that continues to deny genocide, oppresses minorities and has jails filled with political prisoners. That openly supports terrorism and Islamism-- and yet is on track for membership in the European Union. Erdogan does not need to dig up Ataturk and turn him upside down-- the Great Tolerators of Europe were already doing it for him.

Where Ataturk knew that Turkey had to modernize, the Islamist believes that modernity is a sham. That Islamic science has already discovered everything worth discovering and that what the West calls modernity is nothing more than an excuse for wanton immorality and a lack of principles. The modern European Muslim is increasingly coming around to that way of thinking. And thought that way of thinking may be a sham, it is a reasonably successful one, because Europe itself is propping up its underlying assumptions.

Where the Sick Man of Europe had to choose between modernity and Islam-- the modern Muslim need make no such choices. He can listen to Islamist preachers ranting on YouTube, compel patients at his medical office to comply with Islamic laws and have his wife cover her face when she goes outside.

Progress comes from challenges. Challenges demand that you overcome the obstacles holding you back. The Muslim world no longer has challenges. Instead the door has been thrown open for them with no demands or expectations. Islam is not held accountable in the way that other religions are. Muslims are not held accountable for one of the world's largest and longest ongoing killing sprees. Muslim countries are not held accountable for everything from the genocide of millions to barbaric acts of torture and mutilation.

This is the soft bigotry of low expectations. Nothing is expected from Muslims, which only helps the Islamists make the case that Western civilization is hopelessly decadent and weak, and that imitation it would be a mistake. All the fawning praise directed at the "Religion of Peace" feeds that cycle, reaffirming the Islamists' arrogance and sense of destiny as those they think of as enemies foolishly give way to them. That is the attitude Hitler had as he realized that the nations that seemed overwhelmingly powerful were not going to stop him. It is the same attitude you can easily see among Islamists, whose sense of cultural invulnerability is running at an all time high.

Build a mosque near Ground Zero, and you prove that the West does not even value the graves of its martyred dead. Set off a bomb in a crowded cafe and snicker as the governments of the dead rush to assure you that they hold no ill will toward the same ideology responsible. Cover your wife from head to toe on pain of death and watch feminist organizations assure the public that it is the feminist thing to do. To Muslims, Western civilization has gone from a bogeyman to a pathetic joke. Which meant that the Islamization of Muslim countries that had made some concession to Western civilization was a foregone conclusion.

Paradoxically enough it was European tolerance that helped Islamize Turkey, as it has helped Islamize its own resident Muslims. Its tolerance has only fed intolerance. By acting like the conquered, they have only attracted conquerors. By failing to challenge Islam, they discredited their nations and their way of life in the eyes of men faced with a choice between honorable barbarism and dishonorable accommodation to civilization's burdens. And the children of those men are murdering them in the streets of their own cities today.

http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2010/06 ... urkey.html
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Offline Antigen

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2010, 01:48:27 PM »
Welcome, Stonewall.

Interesting argument. But I think it rests on a premis that is accepted in Israel but rejected soundly in this part of the world since before the day Columbus and his crew were found cast away on our eastern shore. That being that theocracy in any form is a legitimate form of government.

I have two responses to the issue of Islamist violence.

First, the civilized world has to recognize and quit the practice of turning a blind eye toward violence, coercion and theft perpetrated by religious fanatics with whom we generally agree. I doubt the Muslim radicals would have anywhere near the sway that they have among the general public in their parts of the world if the League of Nations had not colluded to dispossess the people of Palestine behind some kooky religious doctrine conceived by Moses during his bender up on a mountain centuries ago. I think that if the sane people of the world can come together and quit, to the extent that hairless apes are capable, fucking with the common folk in Muslim lands it would be much harder for the core zealots to convince them to kill all the infidels.

Second, continually piss them off over the stupid shit that should not draw a violent response from any civilized human being or institution.
http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=313170

I'm not sure this sort of muck raking really does a lot of good, but it sure is fun!
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2010, 02:06:24 PM »
Quote from: "Antigen"
Welcome, Stonewall.

Interesting argument. But I think it rests on a premis that is accepted in Israel but rejected soundly in this part of the world since before the day Columbus and his crew were found cast away on our eastern shore. That being that theocracy in any form is a legitimate form of government.

I have two responses to the issue of Islamist violence.

First, the civilized world has to recognize and quit the practice of turning a blind eye toward violence, coercion and theft perpetrated by religious fanatics with whom we generally agree. I doubt the Muslim radicals would have anywhere near the sway that they have among the general public in their parts of the world if the League of Nations had not colluded to dispossess the people of Palestine behind some kooky religious doctrine conceived by Moses during his bender up on a mountain centuries ago. I think that if the sane people of the world can come together and quit, to the extent that hairless apes are capable, fucking with the common folk in Muslim lands it would be much harder for the core zealots to convince them to kill all the infidels.

Second, continually piss them off over the stupid shit that should not draw a violent response from any civilized human being or institution.
http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=313170

I'm not sure this sort of muck raking really does a lot of good, but it sure is fun!


Palestine; 1946 "The Exodus" yes how England and America rationalized displacing 1 million people. A entire people kidnapped from their country, replaced by Europeans.
Menachem Begin was once considered a terrorist by the Allies.

http://www.ou.org/chagim/yomhaatzmauth/begin.html
Menachem Begin, writer Sidney Zion noted in 1983, “was run out of Poland by the Nazis, imprisoned by the Soviets, hunted by the British and nearly murdered ...

Inculcate I am not a anti-Semitic, it is impossible for me to be that. I state facts like many Israelis.

Interesting thoughts Antigen.

danny
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Offline Antigen

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2010, 04:19:17 PM »
Thanks
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Offline Stonewall

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2010, 06:00:06 PM »
Quote from: "Antigen"
Welcome, Stonewall.

Interesting argument. But I think it rests on a premis that is accepted in Israel but rejected soundly in this part of the world since before the day Columbus and his crew were found cast away on our eastern shore. That being that theocracy in any form is a legitimate form of government.

I have two responses to the issue of Islamist violence.

First, the civilized world has to recognize and quit the practice of turning a blind eye toward violence, coercion and theft perpetrated by religious fanatics with whom we generally agree. I doubt the Muslim radicals would have anywhere near the sway that they have among the general public in their parts of the world if the League of Nations had not colluded to dispossess the people of Palestine behind some kooky religious doctrine conceived by Moses during his bender up on a mountain centuries ago. I think that if the sane people of the world can come together and quit, to the extent that hairless apes are capable, fucking with the common folk in Muslim lands it would be much harder for the core zealots to convince them to kill all the infidels.

Second, continually piss them off over the stupid shit that should not draw a violent response from any civilized human being or institution.
http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=11&sid=313170

I'm not sure this sort of muck raking really does a lot of good, but it sure is fun!


The article is not about Israel. Has really nothing to do with Israel. Although Israel is a source of Muslim anger, so are many other things. The existence of Hindu's and Christians and Jews and Infidels, non-Muslims.

About Turkey, they tried an experiment that was bound to fail. A secular society inhabited by those of the Islamic faith. A fantasy that is always short-lived.

I see very little extremism in Muslims. Even Al Qaeda. I see them following the Islamic religion 'moderately'. It is an extreme ideology.
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Offline try another castle

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2010, 09:00:53 AM »
Im just shocked that Islam can be used as a transitive verb.
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Offline Stonewall

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2010, 09:45:50 AM »
Quote from: "try another castle"
Im just shocked that Islam can be used as a transitive verb.


Why does this shock you?
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Offline try another castle

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2010, 05:39:20 AM »
Quote from: "Stonewall"
Quote from: "try another castle"
Im just shocked that Islam can be used as a transitive verb.


Why does this shock you?


I'd never heard the term "Islamize" before, that's all. I don't doubt that it's a valid term, (I actually  bothered to look it up). I guess it seems as strange to me as using the name of any religion this way. Christianize, Islamize, but they are valid words and they do indeed exist. Kinda makes me nauseous, because it's all about forcing some bullshit religion onto people who couldn't care less.
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Offline Antigen

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2010, 09:03:31 AM »
Quote from: "Stonewall"


The article is not about Israel. Has really nothing to do with Israel. Although Israel is a source of Muslim anger, so are many other things. The existence of Hindu's and Christians and Jews and Infidels, non-Muslims.

About Turkey, they tried an experiment that was bound to fail. A secular society inhabited by those of the Islamic faith. A fantasy that is always short-lived.

I see very little extremism in Muslims. Even Al Qaeda. I see them following the Islamic religion 'moderately'. It is an extreme ideology.


Well, I checked the source. Greenfield's an interesting commentator. Bright and bold, but definitely influenced heavily by his upbringing as we all surely are. In this day, it's Israel primarily. In days past the other crusades. I don't think it matters that much how radical the rhetoric of any particular religion. Any religion can be radicalized. See
Soldiers of God or Culture Wars or talk to folks around here who have spent years being broken in Mormon camps. It's when whatever religion becomes the law of the land that we have trouble.

Remember that the Islamic world was the crib of civilization. When Europeans were just playing with the idea of scratching a figure on a rock those 'sand niggers' as some around here call them had libraries, astronomy, advanced mathematics and engineering down pat.

There's a good book out there that touches on that era of history, url=http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Saved-Civilization-Hinges-History/dp/0385418493]How the Irish Saved Civilization[/url] by Thomas Cahill. Essentially, it's a history of Irish culture but also touches on how the people of that island, with inside help from their primary emissary from the Roman Empire, managed to take the literacy and tech offered by their conquerors while resist becoming very Romanized. (yes, a transitive verb LOL)
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Offline Stonewall

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2010, 05:47:48 PM »
Quote from: "Antigen"
Quote from: "Stonewall"


The article is not about Israel. Has really nothing to do with Israel. Although Israel is a source of Muslim anger, so are many other things. The existence of Hindu's and Christians and Jews and Infidels, non-Muslims.

About Turkey, they tried an experiment that was bound to fail. A secular society inhabited by those of the Islamic faith. A fantasy that is always short-lived.

I see very little extremism in Muslims. Even Al Qaeda. I see them following the Islamic religion 'moderately'. It is an extreme ideology.


Well, I checked the source. Greenfield's an interesting commentator. Bright and bold, but definitely influenced heavily by his upbringing as we all surely are. In this day, it's Israel primarily. In days past the other crusades. I don't think it matters that much how radical the rhetoric of any particular religion. Any religion can be radicalized. See
Soldiers of God or Culture Wars or talk to folks around here who have spent years being broken in Mormon camps. It's when whatever religion becomes the law of the land that we have trouble.

Remember that the Islamic world was the crib of civilization. When Europeans were just playing with the idea of scratching a figure on a rock those 'sand niggers' as some around here call them had libraries, astronomy, advanced mathematics and engineering down pat.

There's a good book out there that touches on that era of history, url=http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Saved-Civilization-Hinges-History/dp/0385418493]How the Irish Saved Civilization[/url] by Thomas Cahill. Essentially, it's a history of Irish culture but also touches on how the people of that island, with inside help from their primary emissary from the Roman Empire, managed to take the literacy and tech offered by their conquerors while resist becoming very Romanized. (yes, a transitive verb LOL)



The Islamic World began in the 7th Century... 1400 or so years ago.  While the Middle East may have at one time been the cradle of civilization.... that was long before Muhammad. And, the religion he created has certainly stifled whatever progress might have been achieved there. Or, maybe it was not the Islamic religion, maybe just a coincidence.

The State of Israel is not a modern day Crusade.

If it were, there would be very few Arab Muslim Nations on the earth. As it is there are Arab States from the Persian Gulf to the Atlantic Ocean. With the exception of the State of Israel, it is one long chain of Arab States. Not bad considering 1400 years ago, there was one Arab State... Arabia. So, it is kind of hard to wish for another Arab State, which will surely be another failed State.  I doubt it would be the lone exception of the Arab World. The one winner. Palestine. I don't think so.
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Offline ajax13

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2010, 02:46:21 AM »
Stonewall, you're hilarious.  I appreciate a send-up of an ignorant hate-monger as much as anyone, so my hat is off to you and your talent for parody.  I too have immense respect for the history of Islam.  Philosophers and scientists like Averroes.  The muslim physician Avicenna influenced Western medicine for hundreds of years.  It brings to mind the United States, whose people have embraced and advanced science, came up with jazz and the Constitution, but also dropped one hundred thousand bombs in less than two weeks on the cities of Hanoi and Haiphong.
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Offline Stonewall

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2010, 06:41:35 PM »
Quote from: "ajax13"
Stonewall, you're hilarious.  I appreciate a send-up of an ignorant hate-monger as much as anyone, so my hat is off to you and your talent for parody.  I too have immense respect for the history of Islam.  Philosophers and scientists like Averroes.  The muslim physician Avicenna influenced Western medicine for hundreds of years.  It brings to mind the United States, whose people have embraced and advanced science, came up with jazz and the Constitution, but also dropped one hundred thousand bombs in less than two weeks on the cities of Hanoi and Haiphong.


I'm not hateful. It's more a hatred of hatred.

But, I am more than willing to be educated. You named two people who were Muslims who may have overcome their religion and actually made something of themselves. That does not acquit the religion. Does not acquit Muhammad.
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Offline ajax13

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2010, 11:25:50 PM »
You are on fire Stonewall.  That double-speak you use is a spot-on satire of the kind of manipulative denial used by bigotted fascists for decades.  I almost bought the idea there that you are so ignorant that you're unaware that the immense and sophisticated civilization of the Arab empire and how these muslims rescued and promoted the work of the Classic Western Civilizations while Christian Europe had degenerated into barbarism.  But then I clued in that you were just putting everyone on!  That bit about acquittal of Mohammed is clever and funny, and just as preposterous as acquitting Thomas Jefferson for the millions of Vietnamese killed during the US attack on Vietnam, or the tens of thousands of Iraqis killed in the more recent US invasion of Iraq.  Using satire the way you do is a great way to point out the incoherence of the hatred directed against millions of the world's citizens for their spiritual beliefs.  Acquit Mohammed and the Talmud, too.  Very funny stuff.
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Offline IslamIsViolent

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2010, 12:01:27 PM »
Ajax. Something you should understand is that Islam itself is inherantly violent.  Not all muslims follow their religion and are violent (just as not all Christians are peaceful) but it is accurate to say that the religion itself commands violence.  Hear me out.  Back in the beginning Muhammad was your average cult leader in Mecca.  To gain followers (and not anger those who outnumbered him) his "revelations" commanded peace and tolerance.  Often these are the verses Muslims will quote to prove their religion is like most other religions.

Eventually Muhammad moved to Medina and gained power.  At that point his "revelations" started to command violence.  He became a warlord.  He raided, he plundered, he pillaged, he personally beheaded between 600 and 900 jews.  Some more on his life here.  How did he explain god's change of heart to his followers?  The Qur'an states in chapter 2, verse 106 (and elsewhere):

Quote
"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"

This is similar to concepts in other religions, but the difference is that while in christianity for example, where God suddenly became a pacifist in the New Testament, in Islam God became a tyrant.  When reading the Qur'an, realize that it is not arranged chronologically, but from biggest book to smallest.  The final chapter, chronologically, is Sura 9.  You can read it for yourself but basically what it commands is that Unbelievers be given a choice:  Christians and jews have the choice to either convert to Islam or submit to Islamic rule (follow all islamic laws) and pay tribute (Jizya).  If they refuse to pay tribute they are killed.  Atheists, agnostics, pagans, and everybody else on the other hand have only the options of conversion or death.  This is not up to interpretation. The chapter is crystal clear on what it commands and if you read it for yourself you'll agree.  Chapter 9 is hardly the only example.  Here are some more.

Islam commands husbands to beat their wives.  Islam commands hatred of Christians and Jews (but especially jews).  I realize you're Canadian and dislike "hate speech" but you should understand that the Qur'an itself, by any standard, is just that.  The danger of Islam is not that some extremists will take things out of context and blow themselves up.  The danger is when people interpret it correctly and follow all it's commands as "Allah" very clearly and explicitly orders.

It's not fair to judge muslims by Islam as many are casual in their beliefs and do not know fully what it commands.  Often this is because the Qur'an must be recited in arabic and while many memorize, not all understand or care to.  Other muslims simply choose to ignore the violent parts.  Some Muslims are only Muslims because apostasy in Islam is a crime punishable by death.  In the same respect it's idiotic to judge Islam itself by the peaceful Muslims you know.
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Offline IslamIsViolent

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Re: How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2010, 12:15:50 PM »
Quote from: "ajax13"
hatred directed against millions of the world's citizens for their spiritual beliefs.

It isn't hatred of a people.  It's not even fear of a people.  It is fear of an ideology.  Islamophobia is a misnomer because a "phobia" implies an irrational fear.  It is entirely rational to fear of an ideology that commands such violence and intolerance.
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