General Interest > Tacitus' Realm

How European Tolerance Islamized Turkey...

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grapeape:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

IslamIsViolent:
Ajax.  I could care less what some blatant and open antisemites have to say about what happened on the Marmara.  The facts are that:

* Other ships were boarded without incident.  The Israelis were admittedly naive enough to believe that the Marmara would be the same and therefore were not well prepared.  That being said there is no reason to believe the situation wouldn't have been as bad even with greater numbers and more preparation.
* When the Marmara was boarded the passengers attacked the soldiers with pipes and kitchen knives.  This is on video and indisputable.  The soldiers only fired back with lethal force when every other option was exhausted.  Metal pipes are lethal weapons and nobody should be expected to just sit there and be beaten to death by a mob.
* They were given the option to dock at Ashdod and have their goods shipped to gaza by truck. If their goal had actually been to provide aid they would have done this.  (note the comments such as "go back to Auschwitz" on the radio).
* Their open and publicly stated primary goal was not to provide aid but to breach the blockade (a military blockade).
* Many of the passengers as well as the organizer of the event declared their desire to be martyred on video.  This was nothing less than suicide by cop to make the Israelis look bad.  Their desire was to force the Israelis into a situation where they would be required to fire on "peaceful protesters".
* The Israelis have good reason to block shipments of what could potentially be rockets.  Every time they give the Palestinians what they want, life gets worse for them.  For example, immediately after Israel withdrew from Gaza, rocket attacks increased dramatically and stayed that way.  Short of flattening gaza and everybody in it, a blockade was the only way to stop the attacks (unless you can think of a more humane way).

* The ultimate desired outcome for the Marmara protesters was to make Israel look bad so international pressure would force them to lift the Gaza blockade, allowing shipments of weapons and rocket attacks to resume.
* Palistinian leaders have openly admitted to using women and children as human shields.  The engineered suicide of a few protesters is hardly a reach.

ajax13:
Sockpuppet, the video to which you refer has been disputed since the moment Israeli intelligence released it and began distributing it through the Hasbara.  Certainly the on-camera execution of one of the passengers by IDF forces is indisputable.  And it is indisputable that former US Marine Ken O'Keefe was present when the Israeli commandos were seized after executing passengers.  I couldn't hope to guess what it is that "the Palestinians" want, since there are a few million of them.  


http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq

"The Significance of the Iraqi Death Estimate

The Lancet study already demonstrated that, as of July 2006, the deaths caused by the U.S. invasion of Iraq rivaled the death toll of the 1994 Rwandan genocide. Our update suggests that it has now surpassed even high estimates of deaths in Rwanda. (Note that this does not even include Iraqi deaths attributable to the 1991 Gulf War or the sanctions imposed on the population between the two wars.)

Realization of the daunting scale of the death and suffering inflicted on Iraqis should add urgency to efforts to end the occupation and to prevent such “pre-emptive” invasions or “interventions” in the future. The American people need to rein in their government and create a new kind of foreign policy, one based on cooperation, law, and diplomacy rather than violence and aggression"
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/deathcount/explanation

IslamIsViolent:
Iraq was wrong. I won't dispute that.  It was not a threat and had little if anything to do with terrorism.  As far as the Marmara goes.  Are you trying to argue that just because a person was a marine that they're incapable of lying?

ajax13:
Sockpuppet, it's hilarious that you brush off the invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation, and the ensuing chaos that has cost the lives of millions of Iraqis, not to mention a few thousand Americans, and sum it up with it was "wrong'.  Clearly US imperialism is a much more lethal force than any Islamic terror.  The curious thing about this terror, is that it always leads back to Western intelligence.  A fellow whom I knew for many years was blown to pieces outside a nightclub in Bali by one of these "muslim" terror groups.  But like all such cases, this terror group had curious links to US intelligence.  The tendency is for a small group of terrorists to commit an act, or series of acts, and then lo and behold it is incumbent upon an Imperial entity to respond with military force to the terror act.  Works the same all over the world.  The Russians do it, the Chinese, the Americans, the British, the Frenche, etc.  
I couldn't tell you whether or not Ken O'Keefe is a liar.  I do know that his account is more in keeping with the known facts, specifically that Israeli commandos used fire-arms to kill people on the Marmara; some of the IDF soldiers were seized by the passengers; none of the IDF soldiers was executed by heavy iron bar, edged weapon nor mop.

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