Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado

[DannyB II]

"Pile of Dead Kids"]Anne: Pearls before swine. Having any kind of real argument with Whooter is pointless, and you know damn well he doesn't give half a shit what you say because what happened to you in Straight was THIRTY YEARS AGO and HE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE ( :rofl: ). Bullshit, but familiar bullshit to him and that's basically an auto-answer.
I just maneuver him into saying something completely, irredeemably stupid and then stop. I just had no idea how irredeemably stupid he could be.

This happened while I was still a resident. Matt also picked up kids as a resident

That's fucked up. Happened in Straight too, right? Two supposedly disparate programs doing similar things. Gee, I wonder if THAT happens today, with the same staff moving around between them and all?
 
BTW Danny, learn how to use the quote function. Your quotes are all fucked up half the time.

Dig Dig.......thanks.

And I say again that what the kids are willing to endure to run away from the place speaks volumes about it. One kid tried to hang himself to escape the program. Another kid ran away and wandered around Utah getting dehydrated for days, to escape the program.  And those fifteen-year-old girls were willing to stay with a 35-year-old trucker- why? Same reason. To escape the program.

Nope wrong again Pile that is not the truth. Those girls were in the famous program in Chicago that Marvin Schwartz was privy to yanking kids out of to send to Elan. The reason for being there was drugs, skipping school, running away from home. They ran away from the program in Chicago individually. They could have cared less if it was Elan or Elderberry High School they wanted to be on there own. Personally I know that feeling well. So sorry dude go run your analogy somewhere else this time.

If being under hellishly dangerous conditions is better than the program, what does that say about the program?

Sometimes alot sometimes it doesn't matter kids just want to be free of parent abuse and program abuse. Pile I tell ya it seems your parents did a job on you. I've had similar experiences. Just say'in dude.

Danny

[SUCK IT]

O This place has a long history of disturbing incidents. One boy tried to hang himself. Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days. The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper.

I cant imagine what they do to kids behind closed doors.

This is a problem with fornits. None of these incidents is a treatment program harming kids. These are wrong choices made by the kids themselves, period. The treatment program employees try their best to respond to these incidents. These incidents are proof of why their parents sent them away to get help in the first place. Of course incidents occur when you are dealing with troubled teens, but they are incidents of the teens making poor choices.

One boy tried to hang himself.
But I thought treatment wasn't necessary for these kids who don't have problems? The extremist on fornits believes that this wilderness program is so evil that it drives a completely innocent go lucky kid to try to hang themselves. That is not realistic, obviously this kid had problems and needed help thereby justifying the choice of his parents.

Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days.
Bad choice on the part of these troubled teens. Fornits will argue that programs are too restrictive, but then criticize another treatment program for being more open with the kids and allowing the the freedom of being outdoors, and yes, running if they so choose to. These kids chose to run, that decision is on them. Would the posters on fornits suggest that these kids should of instead be sent to a locked treatment center?

The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper.
Just another innocent, nice teenager who was sent to treatment for no reason, right? She sounds like a lovely kid, I can't imagine why her parents would sent her to get help. If fornits posters had shoes being thrown at their heads, how would they react? Letting a troubled teen take advantage of adults and do whatever they want is bad parenting and will only hurt the kid in the long run, some kids just need to have someone finally say no to them.

[DannyB II]

O This place has a long history of disturbing incidents. One boy tried to hang himself. Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days. The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper.

I cant imagine what they do to kids behind closed doors.

This is a problem with fornits. None of these incidents is a treatment program harming kids. These are wrong choices made by the kids themselves, period. The treatment program employees try their best to respond to these incidents. These incidents are proof of why their parents sent them away to get help in the first place. Of course incidents occur when you are dealing with troubled teens, but they are incidents of the teens making poor choices.

One boy tried to hang himself.
But I thought treatment wasn't necessary for these kids who don't have problems? The extremist on fornits believes that this wilderness program is so evil that it drives a completely innocent go lucky kid to try to hang themselves. That is not realistic, obviously this kid had problems and needed help thereby justifying the choice of his parents.

Another incident involved some boys running away and wandering alone in the utah desert in the dangerously hot summer months for days.
Bad choice on the part of these troubled teens. Fornits will argue that programs are too restrictive, but then criticize another treatment program for being more open with the kids and allowing the the freedom of being outdoors, and yes, running if they so choose to. These kids chose to run, that decision is on them. Would the posters on fornits suggest that these kids should of instead be sent to a locked treatment center?

The british version of brat camp also depicted one girl getting into a an argument with her admissions counsellors and throwing her shoe at them in temper.
Just another innocent, nice teenager who was sent to treatment for no reason, right? She sounds like a lovely kid, I can't imagine why her parents would sent her to get help.

If fornits posters had shoes being thrown at their heads, how would they react?

Letting a troubled teen take advantage of adults and do whatever they want is bad parenting and will only hurt the kid in the long run, some kids just need to have someone finally say no to them.

Well we already do know they hurl insults and false accusations back at you. They gang up and call you a troll, schill, staffer, Ass. Director ect.........lol

Danny

[SUCK IT]

 I have read extensively and read first hand of the horrors some of these kids went thru.  I have also seen the many kids who benefitted form the programs.

I have the advantage of being able to see both sides of the industry.  The good and the bad
...

No matter what somebody's position might be on programs, nobody can honestly claim what Whooter is saying  here is a lie . These are factual statements being made,  yet they drive the average fornits poster into a frenzy. I wonder why this is. Here is someone acknowledging that while some bad things happen unfortunately in treatment programs there are also many, many kids who are benefiting from treatment. This is not a controversial position, it is very much a common sense approach and based on facts. But it drives people here crazy. Why would someone pointing out the simple fact that one experience does not translate into everybody's experience make people so angry?  In that answer is the solution to the riddle of what fornits is all about, and it's not about truth.

[Anne Bonney]

Anne: Pearls before swine. Having any kind of real argument with Whooter is pointless, and you know damn well he doesn't give half a shit what you say because what happened to you in Straight was THIRTY YEARS AGO and HE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE ( :rofl: ). Bullshit, but familiar bullshit to him and that's basically an auto-answer.
I just maneuver him into saying something completely, irredeemably stupid and then stop. I just had no idea how irredeemably stupid he could be.

And you're excellent at it, but we all have our own ways.  I was sooo angry for sooo long and I vented it regularly here.  It wasn't until I shook off the last little bit of the wash (AA) that I finally started to heal and be happy.  You're assuming, regarding me, that I'm posting in an attempt to convince him of something.  I'm not.   I try to be an honest person though and I must admit that he is intelligent enough to rope in the "marks".    My replies to him aren't really to him, per se.  They are a counter.  And it has an added benefit for me personally too.  The more he talks, the more I learn about he mindset of what allows this atrocity to live on.  Kinda like Scientology.  It's taken a while for shit to trickle out, but it's coming.

Now Danny, on the other hand......he's just irresistibly fun to play with.   Is that wrong?   :seg:  :rofl:

They are the personification of the cause and effect of this whole deal.

[Anne Bonney]

 I have read extensively and read first hand of the horrors some of these kids went thru.  I have also seen the many kids who benefitted form the programs.

I have the advantage of being able to see both sides of the industry.  The good and the bad
...

No matter what somebody's position might be on programs, nobody can honestly claim what Whooter is saying  here is a lie . These are factual statements being made,  yet they drive the average fornits poster into a frenzy. I wonder why this is.

**DOUBLE FACEPALM**

Seriously....you're kidding, right?   What "facts" did he state?  That he's "read about" horrors?  That he's "seen" kids?  Jesus-mother-fucking-christ!!!  Do you people fucking HEAR yourselves??




 

Here is someone acknowledging that while some bad things happen unfortunately in treatment programs there are also many, many kids who are benefiting from treatment. This is not a controversial position, it is very much a common sense approach and based on facts.

Yep, which kinda negates your strawman argument. [extreme eye rolling]  Nobody is saying that *some* people don't benefit from *treatment*.  The discussion is about who actually *needs* *help* and what *constitutes* said *help* [/extreme eye rolling].

Please try to keep up.

Are you people just functionally retarded or what?  I'm seriously starting to wonder.

[Whooter]

Seriously....you're kidding, right? What "facts" did he state? That he's "read about" horrors? That he's "seen" kids? Jesus-mother-fucking-christ!!! Do you people fucking HEAR yourselves??

I believe what he may be referring to are the statements that kids do very well in programs and some kids do not do well.  Most of the focus and energy (here on fornits) is placed on kids who didn’t do well ignoring the ones who benefit greatly from programs.
I think it is a good idea to keep them all in perspective.  At least that is what I offer here.

Yep, which kinda negates your strawman argument. [extreme eye rolling] Nobody is saying that *some* people don't benefit from *treatment*. The discussion is about who actually *needs* *help* and what *constitutes* said *help* [/extreme eye rolling].

So you do agree that kids benefit from treatment.  This is the first time I have heard you say this, Anne, which is great.
I think your second statement we can agree on partially, if we can dissect it.  I do believe that the programs could do a bit more in differentiating those who would benefit from the program from those that may not.  A third party screening I think would help go a long way in keeping kids out of programs who do not belong there.
I believe the definition of help and success needs to be defined individually (for each child).  If you review some of the more current studies they do a good job tackling some of the broader topics and define success rates rather well, I think.  These have been a big help to prospective parents in determining the type of program their child may be a good fit for (or not a good fit for).



...

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Anne, I don't know if you're providing a counter to that one or what, but that's a genuine 100% troll, in the original reply-grabbing sense. He doesn't believe what he's saying, he's just trolling for the fun of it. I agree that countering Whooter is sometimes necessary to not let his bullshit go unopposed, but (speaking of many derailed threads) it does start getting lengthy, dueling-banjos, and tl;dr. Which is what he's hoping for.

Sad: I don't know if you're still reading this. But this insanity you see before you, the kind of person who literally insists that any of this is necessary and you really could trust your kids with a pedophile's assistant (!)- these people are who you have your daughter with right now. They can give you a fuckton of happy-sounding lies over the phone. They can probably make your daughter do the same thing.

But what they can't do is provide real treatment, or therapy, or care, because they're not qualified or intelligent enough and they don't care.

For God's fucking sake. Before you ask another question gathering 'all your options' for where to send her next, go get your daughter OUT of this business before they do something irreversible.

[DannyB II]

Anne: Pearls before swine. Having any kind of real argument with Whooter is pointless, and you know damn well he doesn't give half a shit what you say because what happened to you in Straight was THIRTY YEARS AGO and HE HAS EXPERIENCE WITH BOTH SIDES OF THE ISSUE ( :rofl: ). Bullshit, but familiar bullshit to him and that's basically an auto-answer.
I just maneuver him into saying something completely, irredeemably stupid and then stop. I just had no idea how irredeemably stupid he could be.

And you're excellent at it, but we all have our own ways.

and what is yours ways Anne, please do indulge us.

I was sooo angry for sooo long and I vented it regularly here.

Anne read please....you still are.

It wasn't until I shook off the last little bit of the wash (AA) that I finally started to heal and be happy.

AA was not ever a source of therapy for you that choice was made while you were still unconscious, your pathology made sure you would never select AA as a source of help. Straight, killed any idea of AA as being a benefit for you Anne.

You're assuming, regarding me, that I'm posting in an attempt to convince him of something.  I'm not.

Oh yes you are, I hate to admit that for you because you don't see it yet. So therefore you will defend it. " Your heartfelt post you wrote to whooter said as much what your trying to convince him of. I don't see anything wrong with that Anne. Tell him more, really I'm serious. I love this type of posting when people speak there truth

I try to be an honest person though and I must admit that he is intelligent enough to rope in the "marks".

Whooter is extremely intelligent. I have been saying this for a while. Sometimes it is OK just to listen it doesn't equate to submission.

My replies to him aren't really to him, per se.  They are a counter.  And it has an added benefit for me personally too.  The more he talks, the more I learn about he mindset of what allows this atrocity to live on.  Kinda like Scientology.  It's taken a while for shit to trickle out, but it's coming.

I don't think you really do this. I think you either one just thought this up or two someone told you this in a conversation at some point. Your not that multi-talented Anne.

Now Danny, on the other hand......he's just irresistibly fun to play with.   Is that wrong?  

No I don't think so. I have somewhat shown myself to be a clown. I will say though it is a double edge sword. Don't be to pretentious.

They are the personification of the cause and effect of this whole deal.

Explain please.....

Results definition: personification
1. attribution of personal qualities especially representation of a thing or abstraction as a person or by the human form
2. divinity or imaginary being representing a thing or abstraction
3. embodiment incarnation

Danny

[Whooter]

Pile, I think Sad has probably figured out via your foul language and use of the term pedophile that you are just trying to scare her because you lack any factual evidence which shows Open Sky Wilderness to be ineffective or dangerous.  We are all adults and realize that pedophiles exist.  Your logic is a little off and I think you are off the mark a bit to try to convince us that working with pedophiles will turn you into one.  I dont see the logic in that the same as I dont see how working with Gay people would turn a person gay.  Most of these traits are hardwired into people and cannot be changed or rub off on others.
Secondly I dont see how hiring a pedophile with kids around would be good for business, if indeed these places are profit driven.  See what I am saying?

I think we can all agree that the best thing to do (to gain factual  information) is contact the program directly and ask to speak with some parents and kids who have gone through the individual program(s) and find out first hand if the program works.   Most parents do this and, hey, you get to ask some real direct and hard questions.
The program may or may not be a good fit for her daughter.  It’s a good way to find out.



…

[SUCK IT]

**DOUBLE FACEPALM**

Seriously....you're kidding, right?   What "facts" did he state?  That he's "read about" horrors?  That he's "seen" kids?  Jesus-mother-fucking-christ!!!  Do you people fucking HEAR yourselves??

For every 1 person who goes through treatment and complains it was 'abusive' there are at least 50 people whose lives were saved by it. Here on fornits nobody will hear from the 50 people who owe their life to treatment. They only hear from the 1 person, who spends a lot of energy propagandizing the negativity of all treatment from adolescent programs to alcoholics anonymous. This 1 person naturally omits any incriminating choices of their own or any inconvenient truth which provides a reason why they needed treatment, or any ability to empathize with their parents and understand why it was necessary. To this 1 person the 'treatment industry' is tainted by their experience and forever condemned as evil. This extremist view requires vigilant defense because it runs contrary to common sense thought provided by posters such as Whooter.


 

Yep, which kinda negates your strawman argument. [extreme eye rolling]  Nobody is saying that *some* people don't benefit from *treatment*.  

Many posters on this forum make the argument than nobody benefits from treatment, and that anyone claiming so is brainwashed. It's refreshing to see you are not a part of this super extremist viewpoint, at least you acknowledge that 'some people benefit from treatment'. The truth is most benefit from treatment while a small, tiny percentage find it 'abusive'.

The discussion is about who actually *needs* *help* and what *constitutes* said *help* [/extreme eye rolling].[/b]

What better people are in a position to judge this than the parents of a troubled teen? Would you prefer a communist government official be provided to judge whether a parent is right in seeking treatment? But what if the teen is sly, and cons this individual, what then? Just because your friend in treatment told you they were there "for nothing", doesn't mean it's true. You claim being in treatment gives you so much credibility, but you still only have one side of the story. You don't know what people are like at home, or what their parents went through. Parents are in a perfect position to know what type of help would work. Who else would?

[Paul St. John]

SFor every 1 person who goes through treatment and complains it was 'abusive' there are at least 50 people whose lives were saved by it.


First of all, I don t know where the fuck you get your statistics. I have yet to find a single person who thinks they benefited from the place I went, when I was there, and it was only 17 years ago.  I am even referring to people who bought into it at the time.

Now, as far the people, whose lives were saved, How do you know that any of these people would be dead today if not for the program?  You don't!







 Here on fornits nobody will hear from the 50 people who owe their life to treatment. They only hear from the 1 person, who spends a lot of energy propagandizing the negativity of all treatment from adolescent programs to alcoholics anonymous.


You paint a pretty picture, but that is still all it is.


 This 1 person naturally omits any incriminating choices of their own or any inconvenient truth which provides a reason why they needed treatment,

Most did drugs.   And I bet that for every one person who ended up in a center for doing drugs, I can find 50 who did drugs, didn t end up in a center, and just grew out of it on their own.

 or any ability to empathize with their parents and understand why it was necessary.


Necessary?  It was necessary.  To say that it was necessary, is to that it worked.  If it worked, why do so many people seem so pissed off about it?  Are you saying that these centers did cure people but they just don t want to admit that they are cured.


 To this 1 person the 'treatment industry' is tainted by their experience and forever condemned as evil.


let's put you in a ring, and see how you feel.




 This extremist view requires vigilant defense because it runs contrary to common sense thought provided by posters such as Whooter.

It require vigilant defense, because there are so many people who are so good at manipulating the truth.


Paul

[Paul St. John]

Can you accept that there are a lot of dishonest people who make easy livings through deceit, in the name of helping children?

Can you accept that many of these programs are still in existence today?

Can you accept, that people who actually went to programs might have some insight into this?

Paul

[SUCK IT]

Can you accept that there are a lot of dishonest people who make easy livings through deceit, in the name of helping children?

Can you accept that many of these programs are still in existence today?

Can you accept, that people who actually went to programs might have some insight into this?

Paul

I can accept this. I can see from the point of view of the small percentage of people who end up worse off after treatment why this view would compel them to convince others of this view. Something bad happened to me, therefore I want to warn you about it. This is one of the great uses of the internet and is widely utilized for this reason. I can accept that there is a small, from my point of view, tiny risk that a troubled teen will end up worse off or 'abused'. The quotes around the term abuse is because the definition on this forum is fluid to say the least.

I think if an industry wide poll were taken the numbers would break down as I indicated in another post. 80% saved, 18% ambivalent, 1.9% worse off, 0.1% 'abused'. A lot of teens have been through some sort of troubled teen treatment program, so even though the chances are small of negative outcome, eventually over time these numbers add up. On fornits a poll was done which showed about a dozen, with an average of about 20 years from the time they were in treatment.

If a teen is left to their own devices at home without intervention due to this fear of negative result, what are the chances they might overdose on drugs? Get arrested for a crime? Drop out of school, or worse?  These are all the calculations that go on in a parent's mind as they are deciding and seeking out treatment for their troubled teen. Accurate information helps these parents in this decision, and this is where fornits goes too far and suggests that treatment is much more likely to result in a negative outcome than not, which is just not true. I really wonder how many troubled teens sent to all the various types of treatment programs end up as "the walking wounded who can't function due to their broken psyches". If this is true, where are the mental hospitals filled with drooling "survivors" mumbling about how if only my parents didn't send me to treatment I would have been fine.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

To improve the quality of trolling, I'd like to remind you that when making up statistics, you should mention all categories available. You missed one.