Author Topic: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado  (Read 15278 times)

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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2010, 05:47:47 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
You may not agree with the comparison I made and that is a different issue.  But the events that Oz Girl described did not occur at "Open Sky Wilderness".  Its important for the readers to be aware of that.  If you feel all wilderness programs are the same that is okay and is your opinion.  But we need to be clear on the facts.


I never said that they're all the same.  Waht I said was that the programs that utilize the confrontative, peer and emotional pressure tactics are dangerous.  Please pay attention.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2010, 05:49:31 PM »
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
And just to be more clear, we're talking about things that the exact same people (Emily Demong and Laura Lollini) working at one facility were involved in, before moving to another facility. Exact same people, exact same environment, exact same "therapy"; the only difference is the name.


Case in point!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2010, 05:52:21 PM »
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
And just to be more clear, we're talking about things that the exact same people (Emily Demong and Laura Lollini) working at one facility were involved in, before moving to another facility. Exact same people, exact same environment, exact same "therapy"; the only difference is the name.

So if the same principal from Columbine moved to your district you would be worried?  If the principal from some of the schools where the teachers raped their students moved locally then we should all be concerned?  
You haven't demonstrated that "Open Sky wilderness" utilizes the same tactics.  Maybe they use a different method?

See what I mean?  You are just assuming and bring no facts to the table to support your views.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Joel

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« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2010, 05:52:37 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 12:15:10 PM by Joel »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2010, 05:56:42 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
And just to be more clear, we're talking about things that the exact same people (Emily Demong and Laura Lollini) working at one facility were involved in, before moving to another facility. Exact same people, exact same environment, exact same "therapy"; the only difference is the name.

So if the same principal from Columbine moved to your district you would be worried?  If the principal from some of the schools where the teachers raped their students moved locally then we should all be concerned?  
You haven't demonstrated that "Open Sky wilderness" utilizes the same tactics.  Maybe they use a different method?

See what I mean?  You are just assuming and bring no facts to the table to support your views.



As are you.....and the histories of these places more supports our assumptions that most of them work off of the same fundamental model of peer and emotional pressure tactics.
 ::deadhorse::
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2010, 05:58:57 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Does either party have proof that could validate their claim and/or establish (1) who (2) what (3) where (4) why (5) when and (6) how?

Exactly,  we cant take events that occurred in one place and assume they are occurring someplace else without some sort of evidence.



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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2010, 06:03:25 PM »
Joel, we're talking about two people who have gotten their start in this place and now work, as upper management, somewhere else.

http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title ... nt_Academy

If you really want to you can search for "brat camp" on Youtube and watch the sick fuckery for yourself. (Edit: No you can't. The episodes *were* on YT, but have since been deleted. Shit.)

You wouldn't trust someone trained in phrenology to do brain surgery, and no reputable hospital would hire a phrenologist. You wouldn't trust someone educated in creationism to teach bioscience, and no reputable college would hire one as a science teacher. Why the fuck would you trust someone quite literally trained in child abuse to take care of your kids, regardless of where they work?

It's like the Catholic Church moving abusive priests around between parishes instead of defrocking them. If you take the exact same people who were doing something, and you put them in the exact same environment, with very similar ideas of what "therapy" is, why would you expect them to do anything different than what they did before?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 06:58:24 PM by Pile of Dead Kids »
...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...

Offline Whooter

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2010, 06:33:36 PM »
Quote from: "Joel"
Whooter what proof say you?

Exactly, Joel, where is the proof?  All those events occurred at a different wilderness.  Maybe the director of Open Sky wants to take it into a different direction like many people do when switching places.  Maybe she wants to make it the same as the old place she was at.  Maybe she wants to make it religious or have more clinical staff.  Maybe she wants less clinical staff than that place she worked before so she can realize a bigger profit.  Maybe she wants more abuse to occur!!  Maybe less.

Would the principal of Columbine run her new school a little different?  Would the principal of the school which allowed the teachers to rape students make changes?  or would they look forward to the same events?

So I agree with Joel here that we need proof that Open Sky has incorporated a modality that reflects abuse.  But so far we haven't seen that and from the searches I have made the place seems very successful and the parents and kids seem to have benefited from their stay there.



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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2010, 06:43:17 PM »
A pedophile and his assistant go around in a windowless white van marked "free candy". The pedophile gets arrested for obvious reasons. The assistant gets away with it.

A few days later the assistant is seen driving his own windowless green van marked "free toys".

We should give the former assistant a chance, right? I mean, how do we know for sure that he's doing the same thing as his boss used to? Heck, the assistant has a website talking about all the good experiences kids have had in his van, and there's testimonials all over his website and everything talking about how great of a person he is and how much he can be trusted. Why wouldn't we let this guy have our kids?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...

Offline Whooter

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2010, 06:49:57 PM »
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
A pedophile and his assistant go around in a windowless white van marked "free candy". The pedophile gets arrested for obvious reasons. The assistant gets away with it.

A few days later the assistant is seen driving his own windowless green van marked "free toys".

We should give the former assistant a chance, right? I mean, how do we know for sure that he's doing the same thing as his boss used to?

Exactly, good analogy, People are not pedophiles by association, Pile.  If you hang out with gay people for a few years it doesn't mean you will become gay.


...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Joel

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« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2010, 06:56:44 PM »
Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 12:16:20 PM by Joel »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2010, 07:06:48 PM »
This isn't specifically related to Open Sky, so I apologize for the threadjack but I'll tie it in at the end.

You're never going to be able to really get it Who.   You have no idea what it feels like to be in the clutches of that kind of shitstorm, with the ignorant, blind blessing of your parents.  You've got to have a marketing background because you spin like a pro.  You do your best, and way too often succeed, to paint such a rosy, rational picture of what goes on and how these places work, but what it all boils down to is that you have zero experience of what it's like behind closed doors.  You want so badly to believe that you did the right thing with your kid (and it doesn't really matter if you're actually telling the truth about this daughter you've spoken about or if you're John Reuben, drumming up business for STICC) that you justify or rationalize away any criticisms.  I mean, virtually anything negative, you dismiss or spin.  It's either an isolated incident, or necessary 'tough love', or just a bad apple in the bunch, or an exaggeration.....anything to not have to either face up to what you did, or cut into your income or both.


What you'll never be able to get - never be able to truly understand or even begin to appreciate - is the psychic/soul devastation that can, and very often is brought upon these kids.  The emotional and peer extortion puts your soul and your mind through a macerator and then tries to install ones more to their liking.  

Quote from: "maruska"
When I look at the students of the University where I work..well half of them would probably qualify for a program:)...maybe because it is a Performig arts university:))  
When I look at my own children, how they matured and how our relationship is getting better day by day...they know they can trust me, because I never betrayed their trust. That is a strong foundation.

Parents should realize that being a parent is not walk in a park, it is the hardest job ever. Sometimes you would be desperate, sometimes you would feel you are losing your child , but do not believe anybody can do a better job then you!

And the reward is priceless...


That post really struck a nerve with me.  It is so true.  I'm not saying that there aren't any kids who truly need help because there are...but...in my opinion and belief, based on actual experience in being subjected to this form of "treatment" and some fairly extensive research over these last 10 years or so,  first - the number of kids who actually need inpatient, residential help isn't who ends up in these places. (Edited to add:  and, I believe, pretty goddamned small)  Most are kids who are acting up (I refer you to Maruska's post above...PARENTING IS HARD!!!) and the parents are at their wits end.  I get that.  Belieeeeeeeeeeve me, I get that.  Remember, I've also got two grown kids of my own.  One of which scared the living hell out of me for a very long time.  But second - these types of programs are NOT helpful to kids who actually DO need help and, very often again, are even more damaging.

Now, tying it all back into what we were talking about, we recognize things that you wouldn't.  We can see through the charade because we've actually lived it.  You've been a mere observer, even in addition to your capacity of a parent.  When we hear certain buzzwords and phrases that are common in this type of LGAT/emotional blackmail, we see it for the crap that it is.  You don't. When we see programs shuffle staff around, change names because of bad publicity or actual abuse charges, we question it.  You don't.   At MOST you've got some weekend "personal fulfullment workshop" and your cursory exposure as a parent.  Well, that and your market analysis of the goldmine that is the rehab/therapy culture/industry.

So, g'head and sit up there on your high horse, believing that you have any fucking clue.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Oz girl

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2010, 07:27:08 PM »
Isnt this supposed to be the forum where people just provide information that may be relevant???? Sad just in case the info was missed in whooters tomfoolery. 2 key staff members worked for a program with a history of abuse. One was working for it at a time when it was quite open about using pain compliance techniques. I would assume any reasonable parent would want to ask questions about that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Whooter

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2010, 07:30:06 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
You're never going to be able to really get it Who. You have no idea what it feels like to be in the clutches of that kind of shitstorm, with the ignorant, blind blessing of your parents. You've got to have a marketing background because you spin like a pro. You do your best, and way too often succeed, to paint such a rosy, rational picture of what goes on and how these places work, but what it all boils down to is that you have zero experience of what it's like behind closed doors. You want so badly to believe that you did the right thing with your kid (and it doesn't really matter if you're actually telling the truth about this daughter you've spoken about or if you're John Reuben, drumming up business for STICC) that you justify or rationalize away any criticisms. I mean, virtually anything negative, you dismiss or spin. It's either an isolated incident, or necessary 'tough love', or just a bad apple in the bunch, or an exaggeration.....anything to not have to either face up to what you did, or cut into your income or both.
What you are saying is the polar opposite of dismissing all the kids who did well as being “Brainwashed” because no kids could possible benefit from these places.
Quote
What you'll never be able to get - never be able to truly understand or even begin to appreciate - is the psychic/soul devastation that can, and very often is brought upon these kids. The emotional and peer extortion puts your soul and your mind through a macerator and then tries to install ones more to their liking.
Actually I do.  I have read extensively and read first hand of the horrors some of these kids went thru.  I have also seen the many kids who benefitted form the programs.  Can you honestly say the same thing?  Or do you only possess information from one side?  How could you possibly draw  a balanced conclusion?

Quote
That post really struck a nerve with me. It is so true. I'm not saying that there aren't any kids who truly need help because there are...but...in my opinion and belief, based on actual experience in being subjected to this form of "treatment" and some fairly extensive research over these last 10 years or so, first - the number of kids who actually need inpatient, residential help isn't who ends up in these places. Most are kids who are acting up (I refer you to Maruska's post above...PARENTING IS HARD!!!) and the parents are at their wits end. I get that. Belieeeeeeeeeeve me, I get that. Remember, I've also got two grown kids of my own. One of which scared the living hell out of me for a very long time. But second - these types of programs are NOT helpful to kids who actually DO need help and, very often again, are even more damaging.
I raised (raising) several kids myself without the help of a program so I know how hard parenting is and I understand the successes and failures.  99.999% of the kids and parents do very well and get thru tough patches on their own.  But a very small percentage of them need help.  If you haven’t walked in their shoes then you do not know the decisions they had to make or how hard they all worked.
I know from reading your posts that you have not had any experience with kids who have been helped by the programs.
Quote
Now, tying it all back into what we were talking about, we recognize things that you wouldn't. We can see through the charade because we've actually lived it. You've been a mere observer, even in addition to your capacity of a parent. When we hear certain buzzwords and phrases that are common in this type of LGAT/emotional blackmail, we see it for the crap that it is. You don't. When we see programs shuffle staff around, change names because of bad publicity or actual abuse charges, we question it. You don't. At MOST you've got some weekend "personal fulfullment workshop" and your cursory exposure as a parent. Well, that and your market analysis of the goldmine that is the rehab/therapy culture/industry.

So, g'head and sit up there on your high horse, believing that you have any fucking clue.
Sorry, Anne, but anyone who just read your post would say you are the one on the high horse.  I am just posting based on my experiences.  I have seen first hand the successes of the programs and you have not.  Its plain and simple, you have zero experience with todays programs and the experience you do have is all one-sided.  Your knowledge is from 30 years ago based on a program that is long closed and no knowledge of any kids who did well in a program.

I have the advantage of being able to see both sides of the industry.  The good and the bad so I have a better perspective than you do and I can tell you that you are way off in your thinking.  But I wouldn’t want you to rock your world by seeing more than you experienced in straight.  I am sorry you are stuck in the past and had such a bad experience.



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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: Open Sky Wilderness in Colorado
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2010, 07:31:51 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
A pedophile and his assistant go around in a windowless white van marked "free candy". The pedophile gets arrested for obvious reasons. The assistant gets away with it.

A few days later the assistant is seen driving his own windowless green van marked "free toys".

We should give the former assistant a chance, right? I mean, how do we know for sure that he's doing the same thing as his boss used to?

Exactly, good analogy, People are not pedophiles by association, Pile.  If you hang out with gay people for a few years it doesn't mean you will become gay.

I'm not going to reply. I'm just going to quote this so it doesn't get edited away. You might continue the argument with Anne, but I'll just let you have the final say between you and me with this one, Whooter. I've also screenshotted it.

Oz Girl: I don't know, I think Sad's gotten quite a bit of information available with this conversation. Namely, the fact that this is actually how these people think and that she has sent her daughter to them. But, yes, this is the basis of the link between Aspen Achievement Academy and the place she (apparently) sent her daughter to:

Quote from: "Oz Girl"
2 key staff members worked for a program with a history of abuse. One was working for it at a time when it was quite open about using pain compliance techniques. I would assume any reasonable parent would want to ask questions about that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...