Author Topic: The Mothman of WV  (Read 8308 times)

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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2010, 02:46:45 PM »
Quote from: "BuzzKill"
I think it is demonic - as are many other strange creatures (and "hauntings")often encountered - including "aliens".  I'm willing to consider alternative POV - but I have to say, I can't see the "psychic echo" induced by moonshine, and hillbilly ignorance theory as more plausible than accepting there are demons and they do have an interest in interacting with people, misleading people, and tormenting people.


Occam's razor

http://www.2think.org/occams_razor.shtml

A real life example of Occam's Razor in practice goes as follows:
Crop circles began to be reported in the 1970s. Two interpretations were made of the circles of matted grass. One was that flying saucers made the imprints. The other was that someone (human) had used some sort of instruments to push down the grass. Occam's Razor would say that given the lack of evidence for flying saucers and the complexity involved in getting UFOs from distant galaxies to arrive on earth (unseen and traveling faster than the speed of light I suppose) the second interpretation is simplest. The second explanation could be wrong, but until further facts present themself it remains the preferable theory. As it turns out, Occam's Razor was right as two people admitted to making the original crop figures in the 1990s (and the rest have apparently been created by copy-cats). Despite this fact, some people still ignore Occam's Razor and instead continue to believe that crop circles are being created by flying saucers.

The simplest model is more likely to be correct--especially when we are working with unusual phenomenon.





Quote
The History channels monster quest did an episode on wolf-man with some describing a large upright standing "dog". One witness is an artist who did a large puppet like figure of what he saw. I was amazed at his rendition as it looked exactly like the demon peering over the man's should in the now well know photograph. I can't find a link to the episode but you can see the picture by Googling "Demon leering over man's shoulder".  The picture has passed forensic scrutiny. No one will claim what is seen is "real" but the picture is not faked.


I liken it to the "alien abduction" phenomenon.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/200 ... alien.html

Alien abduction claims explained
Sleep paralysis, false memories involved
By William J. Cromie
Harvard News Office

Many of the people who believe they have been abducted by aliens are bombarding Susan Clancy with hate e-mails and phone calls. The Harvard researcher, who has spent five years listening to the stories of some 50 abductees, has described her (and their) experiences in a new book to be published in October.

Clancy, 36, likes most of these people. "They are definitely not crazy," she says. But they do have "a tendency to fantasize and to hold unusual beliefs and ideas. They believe not only in alien abductions, but also in things like UFOs, ESP, astrology, tarot, channeling, auras, and crystal therapy. They also have in common a rash of disturbing experiences for which they are seeking an explanation. For them, alien abduction is the best fit."

As you might guess, the people behind all that hate mail and the phone calls don't buy that. They were there, she wasn't, they insist.

In her book, "Abducted: How People Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by Aliens," to be published by the Harvard University Press, Clancy describes a typical reaction. "Can you believe the nerve of that girl (Clancy)," one abductee says. "She comes to me, like, 'Oh, I believe you've been abducted! Let me interview you to learn more.... Oh, what really happened [she says] is sleep paralysis.' Riiight! How the - - does she know? Did it happen to her? There was something in the room that night! I was spinning. I blacked out ... it was terrifying.... I wasn't sleeping. I was taken. I was violated, ripped apart - literally, figuratively, metaphorically, whatever you want to call it. Does she know what that's like?"

Paralyzing dreams

Abduction stories are strikingly similar. Victims wake up and find themselves paralyzed, unable to move or cry out for help. They see flashing lights and hear buzzing sounds. Electric sensations zing through their bodies, which may rise up in levitation. Aliens with wrap-around eyes, gray or green skin, lacking hair or noses, approach. The abductee's heart pounds violently. There's lots of probing in the alien ship. Instruments are inserted in their noses, navels, or other orifices. It's painful. Sometimes sexual intercourse occurs.

Then it's over, after seconds or minutes. The intruders vanish. Victims are back in their own beds and can move again.

Clancy, Richard McNally, a professor of psychology at Harvard, and other researchers tie such horrifying happenings to sleep paralysis, a condition where the usual separation between sleep and wakefulness gets out of synchronization.

When you dream, you are paralyzed. It's a natural adaptation to prevent people from lashing out, jumping out of bed, walking into doors or windows, and otherwise injuring themselves. But it's possible to wake up while still paralyzed.

"We can find ourselves hallucinating sights, sounds, and bodily sensations," Clancy says. "They seem real but they're actually the product of our imagination." One researcher describes it as "dreaming with your eyes wide open."

Bizarre effects aside, sleep paralysis is as normal as hiccups. It's not a sign of mental illness. About 25 percent of people around the world have experienced it, and about 5 percent get the whole show of sight, sound, tactile hallucinations, and abduction.

Some of these people become completely absorbed by what happened and seek an explanation of it. That can lead them into a grab bag of different techniques well known to those with a rich fantasy life and a distaste for scientific explanations.

Such techniques include hypnosis, guided imagery, regression, and relaxation therapies. "These all work in roughly the same way," Clancy comments. "The therapist lulls the abductee into a suggestive state, in which normal reality constraints are relaxed, and then asks the person to vividly image things that might have happened." Or might not have happened.

Hypnosis, she says, "is a bad way to refresh your memories. Not only that, it renders you susceptible to creating memories of things that never happened, things that were suggested to you or that you just imagined. If you (or your therapist) have pre-existing beliefs or expectations, you're liable to recall experiences that fit with these beliefs, rather than events that actually happened."

False memories

Clancy knows all about false memories; they got her into studying abductees in the first place. When she arrived at Harvard to work on a Ph.D. in 1996, she was fascinated by the political, legal, and social impacts of people who suddenly recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse. Using standard laboratory tests, she found that women who reported recovering such memories were more likely to remember things that never happened than women who always remembered such abuse.

That result, however, does not prove whether or not the woman with recovered memories had actually been sexually abused. Clancy then got the idea that she could get a better scientific grip on false memories by studying people who recovered memories of events that could not, in her mind, have possibly happened, i.e., being abducted by aliens.

"Boy, was I naïve," she says in retrospect. "You can't disprove alien abductions. All you can do is show that evidence is insufficient to justify the belief, and try to understand why people have those beliefs."

On the way to doing this, she, McNally, and their colleagues made some tantalizing discoveries. Measurements of sweating, heart rate, and brain waves showed that those claiming to be abductees show the same symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome as combat veterans. The researchers did not, however, conclude that the abductees had experienced combat-type trauma. Rather, they believe, it is the emotional significance of a memory, whether it is true or not, that causes sweaty hands and rapid heartbeats.

Earlier this year, Clancy and McNally reported on another study that found those who recalled childhood sexual abuse or abduction by aliens experience higher rates of sleep paralysis than those who do not make such claims. Strikingly, the first group also scored high on underlying traits of fantasy proneness, paranormal interests and experiences, and inability to relate socially to others.

Add to this mixture a recurring interest in aliens expressed in books, in movies, and on television, as well as true discoveries of more than 150 planets orbiting other stars in our galaxy. Overwhelmed by this hurricane of sleep paralysis, false memories, and fantasy, some people seek explanations and succor in ghosts, reincarnations, and multiple personalities. Others find that alien abductions provide answers and peace of mind, says Clancy.

"It probably doesn't matter much to the abductees whether they are right or wrong," she comments. "They simply feel better because of what they believe."

Clancy is finished with space abduction studies. She now works in Central America, teaching, continuing research on trauma and memories, and writing a book on recovered memories of childhood sexual abuse. You can bet that book will bring another high wave of hate mail.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Froderik

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2010, 03:14:24 PM »
Yeah, but... {wait for it}

What's your point???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2010, 03:42:22 PM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
Yeah, but... {wait for it}

What's your point???

 :roflmao:  :cheers:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Froderik

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2010, 07:10:33 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Froderik"
Yeah, but... {wait for it}

What's your point???

 :roflmao:  :cheers:
:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl: :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2010, 04:00:15 PM »
Quote from: "BuzzKill"

The History channels monster quest did an episode on wolf-man with some describing a large upright standing "dog". One witness is an artist who did a large puppet like figure of what he saw. I was amazed at his rendition as it looked exactly like the demon peering over the man's should in the now well know photograph. I can't find a link to the episode but you can see the picture by Googling "Demon leering over man's shoulder".  The picture has passed forensic scrutiny. No one will claim what is seen is "real" but the picture is not faked.


Ya mean this one?  http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=44386  From World Nut Daily?



Brian Bonner of the Rocky Mountain Paranormal Research Society said most such cases are explained relatively simply. But for this one, he said, there's not enough evidence  to support a conclusion.

A photographic expert, John Davenport of Roach Photo, told the station the picture did not have evidence of tampering.

"It doesn't look like it was double-printed or spliced in," he said. "The grain is uniform."




Accidental double exposure.


And hey!!!   Look!!!  This guy didn't need AA to help him quit drinking....he just needed his talisman, the picture.  Precisely my point about AA.  It's not AA that gets people sober, just as it's not this "demon".  It's the individuals that keep themselves sober.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Froderik

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2010, 05:12:00 PM »
I finally watched the movie last night, and am now a staunch believer in The Mothman Prophecies.

Too many uncanny, eerie occurrences not to be true...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline BuzzKill

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2010, 06:06:15 PM »
Well, I think it is apparent Something out of the ordinary was taking place.  One theory is as good as the next as to what it was, but it was clearly Something. I stand by my theory as the one that fits the facts best.

The photo of the leering demon. . . I can't see what you posted but assume it is the photo I mean from the type you copied. It isn't a double exposure. In the TV segment the local station did on this, the photographic expert went into more detail - and there was no double exposure  - and no tampering. Double exposures quite simply look like double exposures. Images bleed into one another and over lap in a way this does not.

Some have said it must just be an actual dog - keep in mind this is a wedding photo. No strange dog would be clamoring about the reception - and on the tables apparently, to look over a mans shoulder like that. And if it were a family dog, there would be no mystery - it would just be a cute photo.  Also, I think you'd agree, while it looks like a dog - it is somehow obviously not a dog.
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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2010, 08:00:49 AM »
Hmm, let's see the alternatives here.

On the one hand, we could surmise that this was done with photographic editing techniques such as, well, PHOTOSHOP (note that the source of the photograph is not mentioned once). Or some dude was pulling a bunny-ears style prank on them.

On the other hand, we could conclude that HOLY SHIT AN ACTUAL DEMON AAAAAAAAHHH!!!

Buzzkill, you really are fucking gullible, aren't you?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...

Offline BuzzKill

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2010, 02:58:09 PM »
Well, here's the thing on the photo that you are missing - I saw the original filmed interviews of the people involved. This was carried by the local TV stations and could be viewed on their web site. The link is now dead - you know how the media web sites do - after awhile the story is gone. It might be on some archived site some-where but I wouldn't know how to find it. Anyway, they went into far more detail than is given in this print account. The TV station hired forensic experts to look at it. Had it been photo-shopped they would easily have discovered this. I am sure this is exactly what they expected to find.  However, they could find nothing of the sort. In every way they can examine and investigate this appears to be a non-tampered with photograph - excepting the startling image.  No one would say what is seen is real, but both forensic experts agreed the photograph was genuine - as in not altered or tampered with or double exposed.  One admitted to being a little shook up about this.  It was pretty interesting.  So, sure, I might be gullible.  But in this case, I am no more gullible than the forensic experts who did all they could trying to prove this was an altered image and couldn't do it.
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Offline Froderik

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2010, 04:58:27 PM »
Anyway, wasn't the photo produced (and documented?) before Photoshop existed?

Some things in this world you just can't explain...  :o
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Offline justonemore

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2010, 05:46:49 PM »
Boy Howdy you are right! some things are just mysteries, and deep mysteries at that.
More than a million people , among them journalists, lawyers, medical officers of colonel rank in the army, former state prosecutors, forensic examiners, all kinds of people, all want to know where is the actual birth cerfificate for the occupant of the white house. ( see Jack Cashill, for more detail) Well?
Where is it?
I recently had to produce my birth certificate to renew my driver licence. Even though my prints are on file many places, federal state and local. I've been investigated and back-gound checked by the state i live in, and the F.B.I. around 30 times over the years. Still, I had to produce evidence of identity.......
so.... where is it?
J.O.M.
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Offline BuzzKill

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2010, 06:50:52 PM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
Anyway, wasn't the photo produced (and documented?) before Photoshop existed?

Some things in this world you just can't explain...  :o

The story broke several years ago and the photo is several years older than that - but I don't know any dates. I am sure there were photo altering programs in use, tho no doubt primitive by today's standards. They were looking for over-laid or spliced alterations, even tho the photograph was a little aged.

A photograph can be dated by the paper it is printed on and degree of fading and so on. For example, I once had a court case against me dismissed b/c the accuser brought in old photographs as evidence - it doesn't always take an expert to tell whats old from whats new.

Another interesting aspect of this story not mentioned in these print articles:
The man and his wife said when the pictures of the wedding were new, they didn't notice this thing. The pictures were put in an album and no one noticed it. It was later (a number of years I think they said) when looking through the photo album that they then noticed the thing. They spoke of being very upset - and as is described in the article, it was startling enough to give the man the motivation needed to break some long standing bad habits.  He certainly thinks what is in the photo is real and significant.

For me the mystery is why would a spiritual being (demon, angle or what have you) want their picture taken? Surely, if it is demonic, it didn't intend to frighten the man straight into the arms of Christ? What motivated it - what ever it is? As you say, some things you can not explain.
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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2010, 12:53:28 AM »
Sure I can. It's some kid standing behind the groom holding up a stuffed dog's head.

But you just keep on pretending with your demons and your Christ and the rest of us can keep on cleaning up after you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...

Offline BuzzKill

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2010, 07:48:00 AM »
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
Sure I can. It's some kid standing behind the groom holding up a stuffed dog's head.

But you just keep on pretending with your demons and your Christ and the rest of us can keep on cleaning up after you.


Gosh - I dunno. . . Don't look much like a plush toy to me. But if it makes you more comfortable to think so - then so be it.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: The Mothman of WV
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2010, 12:11:53 PM »
Quote from: "BuzzKill"
The photo of the leering demon. . . I can't see what you posted but assume it is the photo I mean from the type you copied. It isn't a double exposure. In the TV segment the local station did on this, the photographic expert went into more detail - and there was no double exposure  - and no tampering.

He said there was no tampering or obvious hoaxing.  Nothing was said about organic anomolies, IIRC.



Quote
Double exposures quite simply look like double exposures. Images bleed into one another and over lap in a way this does not.

I beg to differ....very often they look exactly like the picture in question.  In fact, I have a few of them that I took myself that look very much like this picture.

Quote
Some have said it must just be an actual dog - keep in mind this is a wedding photo. No strange dog would be clamoring about the reception - and on the tables apparently, to look over a mans shoulder like that. And if it were a family dog, there would be no mystery - it would just be a cute photo.

Ok, still doesn't make a case for "demonic" possession.

 
Quote
Also, I think you'd agree, while it looks like a dog - it is somehow obviously not a dog.

It's a dog.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa