Hmmmm...
@ Whooter, you said "So in essence as the industry improves and becomes more and more effective and less abusive the stronger the groupthink here on fornits will become driven by its greater isolation."
I dont deny the industry has made improvements and has become more and more effective and less abusive, I have worked in them. Crisis Units, Detox's, State Institutions and Private Institutions. Only an idiot would proclaim the lack of need for some individuals that despeately need help, either in a physical sence or a mental/emotional sence. And I have stated that many times without retaliation or rebuttal. Yes, it goes against "group thought", but so what, it is only my opinion.
Also, there is an abundance of literature offered at the top of every page on fornits covering a wide variety of thought on the subject. So with information comming in, and as people like myself speak thier minds, as there are "Gatherings"....I would like to see how Fornits (if you could illustrate how), and I am only guessing you mean all of us, are further isolated
If you have a fixed ideation, regarding Fornits and the survivors that gather here as being easily subjected to Group Thought, you are only partialy accurate. It is my experiance, as one furthers themselves from Straight Inc, a stronger sense of self, slowly begins to develop. As that happens people speak thier own minds more and more. Granted, this stirs the preverbal pot making for heated dialouge/debate. Considering this is a forum of discussion, this is inevitable, if not encouraged and most definately predictble. Open, Un-Moderated forum. Un-Moderated as I understand it means we are free to speak our minds and as such are also free to change our minds when we see fit, as individuals. That is the spirit of this forum, is it "Group Think", most probably. Is it organized, run, dictated by any one individual, I think not. It is a forum that attracts individuals to gather and try to come to some sense of peace with atrocities which we endured. We all have that in common, thus makes us a group. Most recognise the abuse for what it was/is and are extremly sensitive to that which occured, to this we can agree, so yes, there is a degree of Group Think. Our motives may be dissimilar, our methods range from gentle to abrasive, comical to tragedy. Our voices reflect our experiance, our memories of that experiance, our anger, our confussion and our sense of loss. What may be seen as Group Think in totality, is a collective experiance and a voicing of that experiance. Although similar, we are all different. It is a tall order to Celebrate our Diversity, yet I have found it simpler to accept and tolerate those differances.
It is not a question of "discrediting" a thought or the person presenting the thought, stereotyping as you mentioned. It is offering a counter point to an idea. Point-Counter Point as I see it is not a common occurence in Group Think as I understand it. You earlier wrote "Stereotyping those who oppose the group by tagging them as weak, evil or biased or name calling like programmie or sockpuppet (in this specific case) is common with all groups which developed groupthink."
We, and my assumption is that you also have come from a Group Think environent, such as Straight Inc. (perhaps not). Each of us are at various stages, or degrees of change/growth/healing. 'In this specific case', we are coming out of a disastrious scenario of Group Think, it is understandable that there are elements of Group Thought tendencies remaining. If after one falls into a pile of shit and while in route to cleanse onself off is ridiculed for smelling like shit....doesnt it seem absurd, and doesnt this seem to further isolate the individual from cleansing themself? This seems like a system based on exclusion rather than inclusion...a by-product of Group Think?
Am I engaging in Group Think if my thoughts are similar to the Guest who wrote after you? I think not, I simply agree. No harm, No foul.
@ Withdraw...In regard to the Victmhood issue pertaining to you.....Good!
Pertaing to others, I can only think of yet another teaching from Buddhist literature. It seems appropriate to me, but I may be off my mark...if it makes sense to you, wonderful....if not, disregard. The teaching says in effect:
The total amount of happiness
that exists in the world has come from wanting to make others happy.The total amount of suffering that exists in the world has come from wanting to make yourself happy.
What need is there for many words?
The children of the world work for their own sake; the Enlightened Ones do their labour for the sake of others. Come and see the difference. Come and make the difference!
The "balance", is for you to find, your experiance, your heart and your sense of what is right will have to guide you. This is your story, your book and sadly there are no ghost writers to assist you. You have come this far and despite any hardhips, appear to be fairing well. Keep on Keeping on!
Anat & Physiology where amoungst my favorite courses, but like you I would have difficulty dissecting cats (I have three beloved Maine Coons) I would rather work with cadavors.
@ Another Guest, or Same Guest- you wrote"Show me a long term, independent, peer reviewed, published study that supports your view. See what I mean? The shoe is on the other foot. The programs help thousands of kids every year and you can find one or two a year who didn’t do well. Do you need a study to tip the scales?
You are immersed in the “Group think”, my friend, which is obvious by your post. Try to open your mind a little and see all the people that are being helped and the direction the industry is going."
What is the need for "a long term, independent, peer reviewed, published study that supports your view" when the vast majority of us have lived the subject of this study ? I agree there are thousands of programs that indeed offer a life saving service. However, there are shit holes mixed in with that group as well...and we have acted on those shit holes and they have since been closed....not because of us, but due to unscrupulious individuals who can give a fuck about a childs welfare and dignity...Children do have the right to dignity, do they not?
Draw a comparrison to the Catholic Church, no doubt thousands have found relief in the sacred halls of symbolisim and hope and the church has done them a great service. But there are others that found thier butts in the air pointing directly at a priest's penis. Now, I have nothing against the Church as a whole, but I have issue with pedophilic priests. Do these individuals make the church bad? Perhaps in some eyes they do. Yet the church persists in helping people and it is unfortunate that there is pure evil in its midst. Same with the mental health care industry. Watch Dog groups are formed everyday for just this reason. Are we any different? Is that saying your Group Think can kick our Group Thinks ass? Absurd!
Sociologist tell us of the ancient needs for man to gather, rudimentary rules and regulations were set and followed, or face explusion from the group. Families, Clans, Tribes, Nations.....ultimately civilization, despite our best efforts, there is, was, will always be a degree of Group Think, it is intinctual and in part holds society together, such as it is.
Now, Back @ Withdraw-- It would be interesting, if only to myself, to know what your instrutor/professor has to say about this discussion. Print this discussion out and discuss it with them privately and request confidentiality, that the discussion be held between yourself and the intructor/professor.
"Group Think" as I see it (not pretending to know the academic deffinition) is a sociological phenomina, that takes place amoungst the masses, naturally without any pretense, it simply occurs. Problem comes when a charismatic individual enters the picture with an appealing rhetoric that on the surface agrees with the masses. The masses, as individuals think, yes, this individual thinks as I do, then evolves into 'thinking" as we do. Like herd animals we follow this seeming logic directly to a slaughter house. I forget who said it, but I think it is a wonderfull quote appropriate to this conversation.And the quote is as follows:
The snare of all great thought is the uncritical acceptance of irrational assumptions.A few of these charismatic people come to mind, Adolf Hitler, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Helen Peterman, Mel Sembler, George Ross, Miller Newton. Each of these people have or had a charismatic personality that knew how to work a crowd into a state of frenzy with an alarming ability to use fear as motivation, either on a national level, religious level or a parental level.
National pride is not at issue, religious zeal is not at issue, genuine parental concerns for thier off spring is not at issue. Yet the charismatic individuals, with thier own agendas sway the masses into following thier rhetoric, the irrational assumptions goobled up by a desperate group of individuals looking to be "saved" and so accept the rhetoric uncritically and suddenly (over time) find themselves in a desperate quagmire of destruction.
Again....Hmmmmm, much more could be said, but to what end. I must really set aside time during my normal waking hours to give this any further thought, 5 hours of sleep, 2 cups of coffee, makes more of a ramblin than a cohesive discussion. The irony is I care more for Withdraw and his/her struggles in shaking off the filth of Straight Inc than I do about whether Fornits is a Group Think tank or not. Psycologically speaking, my biggest question in regard to Group Think in Fornits is....So?
Much Pece
Much Healing
woof
OBTW...What does 85DJ have to do with any of this?
