Ellen Behren's Industry Study Funded by AEG

[DannyB II]

In other words, you're throwing out quotes from a bogus source, because it's all you have.

Now Pile, I have stayed out of the mix because you have. As a matter of fact you were begging DJ, to stop this early last week. Now if you are going to persist on being in the mix then I will have to bring my considerable sources here to bear down on you. This is not a reaction I would feel comfortable doing. I am asking you to reconsider your actions here and step away from the debate.
Thank You

[Whooter]

Yep, another way to say that is "it showed the program doesn't work."

We know it works from the results of phase I.  The question, now, is what happened to Phase II and how long do the results last and the percentage of the kids who stay on a healthy path.



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[Troll Control]

No we don't.  Phase one only tells us that kids in programs say they are better.  

But you say all the time their word can't be trusted because they are "manipulators."  You even say it's reasonable to deny them medical care because too often they lie about their condition.  Of course they report being better.  They just want to get out!  

You can't believe them when they say they're DYING, but you can believe them when they're reporting progress??  :rofl:  :roflmao:

Phase two might have proven that it worked, but they deep-sixed it after paying for it.  Must have not been good news!

[Whooter]

No we don't.  Phase one only tells us that kids in programs say they are better.  

Welcome to the world of studies.  They can report on what people say...  At least you admit that the kids said they are better.



...

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Now Pile, I have stayed out of the mix because you have. As a matter of fact you were begging DJ, to stop this early last week. Now if you are going to persist on being in the mix then I will have to bring my considerable sources here to bear down on you. This is not a reaction I would feel comfortable doing. I am asking you to reconsider your actions here and step away from the debate.
Thank You

A bitch says what, now?

[elangraduate]

Danny fuck you.

[Troll Control]

Oh yes, they said they were better.  It's the only way to get out of the program - "Fake it until you make it."

However, you have stated hundreds of times that what they say can't be believed because they are manipulators and now because they said something you wanted to hear you want the rest of us to sit back and say nothing of your incredible hypocrisy?  

Aspen says right on their website not to trust what your kid says because they're trying to convince you to take them out of the program.  

Now they want people to believe the opposite just because what the kid is saying could make money for the program?  No way, man.  That just doesn't make sense.  Either they're lying manipulators or they aren't.  

You make a living off claiming they are lying manipulators that need to be in programs because they lie and manipulate and now you're trying to make a living off claiming they're not lying manipulators.  It goes against everything you've represented the entire time you've been here!

Flip :flip: Flop :flip:   No credibilty there, Whooter.  None at all.

[Whooter]

The marketing campaign is polished, it just lies about the study results.

And the study clearly states that the length of stay has no effect on the outcome.  The obvious conclusion is if the results are the same, keep the stay as short as possible and the cost as low as possible.  It's a stunning find by Behrens that there's no diference in outcome for kids who left early against program advice and kids who stayed for the full program.  Kinda blows holes in the whole "kids who don't finish the program fail" theory, huh?  You've said that many times.

I see it a little differently.  The kids who leave early  (say 6 months) may report the same results as the kids who stay the entire time.  This is due to that the majority of the change has occurred by then and the child appears to be better.  The time in the final phase of the programs is used to solidify the childs changes and prepare the child for the transition home.

Great discussion, DJ, I found this finding interesting myself.  I would like to see the kids fill these out at 3 month intervals to see if there is any variance from the onset to the 3 month mark and then again from the 6 month mark to the end of the program  (just purely from a reporting perspective to see how the kids feel they are benefiting and at what time along the time-line they wee this effect).

However, in this case, those who left against program advice left, on average, during
the last stage of treatment. Clinical staff in private residential care often devote the last few
weeks or months to consolidation of gains and transfer of skills. In essence, this last phase is
typically designed to solidify change. Parents and adolescents who discharge against program
advice during this last phase may not appreciate the need for continued care because problems
appear resolved.

p.14
Residential Treatment Outcome-Study



...

[Troll Control]

Oh yes, they said they were better.  It's the only way to get out of the program - "Fake it until you make it."

However, you have stated hundreds of times that what they say can't be believed because they are manipulators and now because they said something you wanted to hear you want the rest of us to sit back and say nothing of your incredible hypocrisy?  

Aspen says right on their website not to trust what your kid says because they're trying to convince you to take them out of the program.  

Now they want people to believe the opposite just because what the kid is saying could make money for the program?  No way, man.  That just doesn't make sense.  Either they're lying manipulators or they aren't.  

You make a living off claiming they are lying manipulators that need to be in programs because they lie and manipulate and now you're trying to make a living off claiming they're not lying manipulators.  It goes against everything you've represented the entire time you've been here!

Flip :flip: Flop :flip:   No credibilty there, Whooter.  None at all.

FIRST: "Don't believe a word of what those lying manipulators say, even if they say they are dying.  They're faking it."

SECOND: "This study based on lying manipulators' statements prove programs are effective.  They're telling the God's honest truth!"

In order to believe the second proposition, you must invalidate the first.  Your whole line of reasoning goes up in smoke here.

[Anne Bonney]

No we don't.  Phase one only tells us that kids in programs say they are better.  

Welcome to the world of studies.  They can report on what people say...  At least you admit that the kids said they are better.

Because they know what will happen to them if they tell the truth.  They''re desperate (edited to add: and will say whatever they need to in order to get out.  That's what I did.  

Oh....and those of you who think I'm a raging bitch?.......Guess where that came from?  I was the most timid, shy little thing you'd ever meet before being sent away, but after Straight got through with me?  Bitch on wheels.  And I mean BITCH!!  I swore that I would never let anyone speak to me again the way that those sadists did.  And nobody does anymore, without getting a verbal shitstorm raining down on them.  Straight certainly taught me how to go for the emotional juggular at people.  I can unequivocally say (and my mother and even my dad would confrim this) that I was much, much worse when I came out than when I went in.

Ever heard how criminals in prison end up feeling like they're in a training camp for being a criminal?  That's quite similar to how I felt after "graduating".

[Whooter]

FIRST: "Don't believe a word of what those lying manipulators say, even if they say they are dying.  They're faking it."

SECOND: "This study based on lying manipulators' statements prove programs are effective.  They're telling the God's honest truth!"

In order to believe the second proposition, you must invalidate the first.  Your whole line of reasoning goes up in smoke here.

I have to disagree here.  I believe we should not try to diminish or cover-up the feed back we get from survivors.  DJ, you may feel that survivors are not telling the truth when they speak about their experiences but we need to listen to all the stories not just some of them.

There may be those which we believe are the truth and those which we choose not to believe, but they should still get an equal voice in my opinion.



...

[Troll Control]

No, it's not that I don't believe survivors.  It's that you, for many years, have been saying that kids in programs lie and manipulate - so much so that you have excused their being killed by staff who refused to call 911 because they belived the kids were "faking it."  Only now you want everyone to beliueve the opposite - that program kids are honest.  

It has been your argument all along, not mine.  All I'm saying is the obvious, which the researcher herself included in the work; that kids are highly motivated (biased) to report progress in order to get out of the program.  This is the same argument you've been using here since you came on this board for why they SHOULD NOT be believed - "They'll say anything to get out of the program!"  Now you're asking everyone to believe the opposite.  It's illogical.

[Whooter]

No, it's not that I don't believe survivors.  It's that you, for many years, have been saying that kids in programs lie and manipulate -

If you really worked around kids like you claim you did you would know that some kids do lie and manipulate.  You need to guard against this and take it into consideration.  I think where many people here on fornits (yourself included) get tripped up is if you experience or read an event you apply it to all events.

Some kids will lie and manipulate but this doesn't mean that all kids lie and manipulate.  Do you see what I mean?  The study sampled 1,000 kids.. did any of them lie?  Who knows maybe.  But that is the beauty of pulling a large sample like this is to insure you are getting  representative feedback.



...

[Troll Control]

The problem is that it's a large biased sample, as Behrens admitted when she was unable to explain why kids who went for one day did as well as kids who went for 24 months.

[Whooter]

The marketing campaign is polished, it just lies about the study results.

And the study clearly states that the length of stay has no effect on the outcome.  The obvious conclusion is if the results are the same, keep the stay as short as possible and the cost as low as possible.  It's a stunning find by Behrens that there's no diference in outcome for kids who left early against program advice and kids who stayed for the full program.  Kinda blows holes in the whole "kids who don't finish the program fail" theory, huh?  You've said that many times.

I see it a little differently.  The kids who leave early  (say 6 months) may report the same results as the kids who stay the entire time.  This is due to that the majority of the change has occurred by then and the child appears to be better.  The time in the final phase of the programs is used to solidify the childs changes and prepare the child for the transition home.

Great discussion, DJ, I found this finding interesting myself.  I would like to see the kids fill these out at 3 month intervals to see if there is any variance from the onset to the 3 month mark and then again from the 6 month mark to the end of the program  (just purely from a reporting perspective to see how the kids feel they are benefiting and at what time along the time-line they wee this effect).

However, in this case, those who left against program advice left, on average, during
the last stage of treatment. Clinical staff in private residential care often devote the last few
weeks or months to consolidation of gains and transfer of skills. In essence, this last phase is
typically designed to solidify change. Parents and adolescents who discharge against program
advice during this last phase may not appreciate the need for continued care because problems
appear resolved.

p.14
Residential Treatment Outcome-Study



...