Author Topic: Long-Term Outcome Studies  (Read 18417 times)

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Offline Whooter

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #75 on: September 25, 2009, 05:11:06 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Whooter's "interpretation" of HIPAA is so astoundingly ignorant, one must wonder if he recently took a sever blow to the head.  Let me educate you, Whooter.  HIPAA covers facilities, not individuals.  And any individual who works for the covered entity, from the janitor to the director is forbidden from disclosing anything that happens with any client of that facility.  Get it now?

And so far as this lawsuit is concerned, the judge simply sated that if Aspen provides no treatment, then HIPAA doesn't apply.  If that's the case, fine, disclose client information whenever you want.  The problem is that this facility performed therapy with its clients and the therapists are not licensed.  Providing therapy (or counseling) when unlicensed to do so is a crime, plain and simple.  Like practicing medicine without a license.  Same deal.

So we clearly see Aspen is guilty of at least one criminal/tortious action.  They either provided therapy without a license to do so (a crime) or they were licensed and violated HIPAA (a tort).  Either way, they're guilty as sin.

Well so far the court system disagrees with you.  Neither you or I make or interpret the laws so we will see what happens.  So far what we know is Aspen hires Licensed therapists and they perform treatments.  So far as we know Aspen has not been found guilty of anything.  

On the other hand Matthew is in jail, so that should tell us about who is guilty and who is not.  But if anyone finds any more info lets throw the links up here and take a look at them.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #76 on: September 25, 2009, 06:51:21 PM »
I don't think anyone was arguing whether Matthew was guilty or not.  And what you continuously fail to understand, obviously deliberately, is that people are arguing that treatment and counseling by the unlicensed is illegal, immoral and unethical.  That one doctor on site performing it may be legal, but if others who are not licensed are performing it, that is illegal.  And it is clear to all of the anti-program people this site is here for, everyone will agree that Aspen and North Star are using both a licensed professional and unlicensed hacks, the second group being used to give illegal treatment and counseling.  And the parents who are suing them, are alleging that the hacks were performing treatment.  And that the school itself has suggested through their vague brochures that they offered this place as a treatment facility when North Star is now claiming they did not offer that.  

Your continued efforts to not grasp this are obvious to all.  You are not just dumb, you are intentionally dumb, which is peculiar.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #77 on: September 25, 2009, 07:32:54 PM »
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
I don't think anyone was arguing whether Matthew was guilty or not.  And what you continuously fail to understand, obviously deliberately, is that people are arguing that treatment and counseling by the unlicensed is illegal, immoral and unethical.  That one doctor on site performing it may be legal, but if others who are not licensed are performing it, that is illegal.  And it is clear to all of the anti-program people this site is here for, everyone will agree that Aspen and North Star are using both a licensed professional and unlicensed hacks, the second group being used to give illegal treatment and counseling.  And the parents who are suing them, are alleging that the hacks were performing treatment.  And that the school itself has suggested through their vague brochures that they offered this place as a treatment facility when North Star is now claiming they did not offer that.  

Your continued efforts to not grasp this are obvious to all.  You are not just dumb, you are intentionally dumb, which is peculiar.

That was never proven.  No everyone in a doctors office is a doctor or nurse.  They are not all licensed. Not everyone who works on your car is a licensed mechanic... not everyone is a licensed plummer...etc....  some are there to help out or to learn, apprentice etc.....  you are looking for fault where there is not any.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #78 on: September 25, 2009, 07:46:35 PM »
Again, you seem to be the only posting and again you seem to not be able to form a cohesive, logical argument.  A nurse in a doctors office has a degree in nursing.  The doctor holds a doctorate degree, the nurse usually a Masters.  They are fully licensed and trained.  I cannot believe everyone on planet earth but you knows this, so again I am forced to conclude that you just like post even if you have nothing useful to add to a conversation.

Auto mechanics require licensing on some level.  The amateur in his garage does not.  But if that amateur attempts to smog check his own vehicle, he will soon find out what not being licensed is all about.

If Aspen Group is using unlicensed staff to perform mental health treatment and counseling on teens, they are breaking the law.  You can keep trying to work your ignorant circle-logic, but nobody here is going to buy it.  The court case is not over and at no time does it appear that the judge ruled on whether Aspen is using unlicensed staff to treat mental illness or offer counseling to minors.  

I will now wait another four minutes to respond to your next useless argument and go to another thread and respond to your latest useless argument there.  See you shortly...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2009, 07:52:33 PM »
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
Again, you seem to be the only posting and again you seem to not be able to form a cohesive, logical argument.  A nurse in a doctors office has a degree in nursing.  The doctor holds a doctorate degree, the nurse usually a Masters.  They are fully licensed and trained.  I cannot believe everyone on planet earth but you knows this, so again I am forced to conclude that you just like post even if you have nothing useful to add to a conversation.

Auto mechanics require licensing on some level.  The amateur in his garage does not.  But if that amateur attempts to smog check his own vehicle, he will soon find out what not being licensed is all about.

If Aspen Group is using unlicensed staff to perform mental health treatment and counseling on teens, they are breaking the law.  You can keep trying to work your ignorant circle-logic, but nobody here is going to buy it.  The court case is not over and at no time does it appear that the judge ruled on whether Aspen is using unlicensed staff to treat mental illness or offer counseling to minors.  

I will now wait another four minutes to respond to your next useless argument and go to another thread and respond to your latest useless argument there.  See you shortly...

Besides the nurse and doctors the other staff are not licensed... the ones taking your blood pressure, filling out your chart are not.  If they start playing doctor then they will go to jail and if the nonlicensed staff in a program start to write scripts for meds or perform psycotherapy then they will go to jail to...but this hasnt happened.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #80 on: September 25, 2009, 07:59:27 PM »
Yes it has.  And it has happened at all of these programs.  The person taking your blood pressure is a nurse or medical assistant.  They are trained and licensed.  You really are incredibly dumb not to know this.  Do you actually research any of the drivel you spew here or do you just make it up as you go along?  I would say get a life, but I now find I have to say, "Get a fucking intellect!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #81 on: September 25, 2009, 08:14:34 PM »
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
The court said many things, but people are taking them out of context.

Those who are not licensed, are not covered, thus they are allowed to make police reports and give information whereas someone who is licensed might not be able to do so because of patient/doctor confidentiality.  I say might, because a therapist is required by law in many cases, such as expressions or suicide by the patient, to in fact call the police and report this.  However the case is explaining that those who are not licensed are not covered by this, thus the fact North Star called the police was legal and therefore the lawsuit claim invalid.

Second, the case is suggesting that although Matthew had an actual licensed therapist, and thus receiving treatment, North Star was indeed offering treatment.  What the case did not cover is whether the other staff, who are not licensed, are allowed to offer treatment or counseling under the law.  It also did not cover whether those other staff who are not licensed health professionals were providing treatment or counseling.  We however know that they do provide it and this is not legal.  But it does not appear to have been discussed or ruled upon specifically in the court case.

HIPAA rules cover entire entities and not individuals thus by having one person covered by the rules, the entity (North Star) had to be covered.  Whether the other staff who are not licensed or trained are covered is obvious by virtue of North Star being covered for their one licensed therapist.  And if North Star, or even Aspen as a whole give their staff training in HIPAA, that's cool.  However I highly doubt they actually follow those guidelines.
.
It's even worse than that.
   Here’s the deal, Aspen was sued over the disclosure of Mathew’s confessions from a couple of roads of address:
1) The Pences argued Harless / mathew had a confidential patient/  therapist relationship because harless was offering therapeutic care to Mathew
           Aspen argued she was not a therapist, and was not offering therapeutic treatment

The judge ruled that whatever she was offering, because she was not employed by a licensed therapist, she didn't breach of the confidential patient / therapist relationship.
       
 2) The Pences argued that because Aspen Group was a healthcare provider and harless was offering therapeutic treatment,  Mathew’s confession was privileged health information.

Aspen argued that it was NOT a healthcare provider, and Mathew was NOT being provided with treatment, by either Harless or the program in general, in any legal sense of the term.

The judge ruled that it could not reach summary conclusion as to whether Aspen was a healthcare provider, as to whether Harless was offering therapeutic treatment, but, either way, because Aspen personnel took HIPPA classes, that suggests Aspen may be covered under HIPPA. He ruled that this issue would have to be settled through further legal measures.

Apsen’s defense for EVERYTHING it was accused of was that it was not offering Mathew treatment, and never promised to.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #82 on: September 25, 2009, 08:17:06 PM »
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
Yes it has.  And it has happened at all of these programs.  The person taking your blood pressure is a nurse or medical assistant.  They are trained and licensed.  You really are incredibly dumb not to know this.  Do you actually research any of the drivel you spew here or do you just make it up as you go along?  I would say get a life, but I now find I have to say, "Get a fucking intellect!"

Most people think theit is John Reuben, working (possibly hired) by Aspen to PR spin on this forum. Its very creepy--that much is sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #83 on: September 25, 2009, 08:25:28 PM »
I will read it again, but I didn't quite get that same impression.  I think Aspen was saying that they did have at least one licensed mental health practitioner on site, who I also gathered did provide counseling once a week to students.  Aspen was merely arguing that the specific person who provided information to the police was not licensed and therefore was not covered by the rules for confidentiality and also that this person in no way offered any treatment or therapy, despite having a title that suggested she did.  

The court was correct, in my opinion in stating that she was not covered because she was not licensed.  But, the court is not clear on whether she was performing therapy without a license or not and this is what they were planning to address later in the case.  That Matthew received treatment from at least one licensed professional on his "team" I don't think is in dispute.  But if he received any treatment for mental health, counseling or whatever from any unlicensed staff, this would be illegal, likely a breach of contract, and might end up supporting earlier arguments about a breach of contract and a violation of patient/doctor confidentiality.  Though this last part, having been ruled upon already, may not come up again.

But the Pence family need only win on one or two points to succeed in their case.  And with Aspen already admitting the staff were not licensed or trained, and that they were not providing treatment, if it can be shown that they were in fact providing treatment, I think Aspen is screwed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #84 on: September 25, 2009, 08:28:15 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
Yes it has.  And it has happened at all of these programs.  The person taking your blood pressure is a nurse or medical assistant.  They are trained and licensed.  You really are incredibly dumb not to know this.  Do you actually research any of the drivel you spew here or do you just make it up as you go along?  I would say get a life, but I now find I have to say, "Get a fucking intellect!"

Most people think theit is John Reuben, working (possibly hired) by Aspen to PR spin on this forum. Its very creepy--that much is sure.

You are really now suggesting that people think I am John Reuben?  With the name Rocky Mountain Academy Survivor?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #85 on: September 25, 2009, 08:47:52 PM »
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
Yes it has.  And it has happened at all of these programs.  The person taking your blood pressure is a nurse or medical assistant.  They are trained and licensed.  You really are incredibly dumb not to know this.  Do you actually research any of the drivel you spew here or do you just make it up as you go along?  I would say get a life, but I now find I have to say, "Get a fucking intellect!"

Most people think theit is John Reuben, working (possibly hired) by Aspen to PR spin on this forum. Its very creepy--that much is sure.

You are really now suggesting that people think I am John Reuben?  With the name Rocky Mountain Academy Survivor?
I think guest means "theit" is John d Reuben. Though, TheIt has alleged long time posters are really him. It's purpose does seem to be nothing more than irritate survviors of torture (that's his cue to announce when we say 'torture', we mean is not having a cell phone ha, ha, ha,)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Whooter

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #86 on: September 25, 2009, 08:50:01 PM »
Ha,Ha,Ha,  no that wasnt me that posted that.  See, RMA,  I am not the only guest poster.  There are hundreds here (maybe not tonight).  I dont think you are JohnR.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #87 on: September 25, 2009, 08:51:34 PM »
Did we even have cell phones in 1984? I so fucking old I don't remember.  All I remember is that it was uphill both ways to the main house.  Literally.  Torture for me was not having a cell phone.  It was not having Mountain Dew.  If it is ever listed as a drug, I can say I was an addict.  And wouldn't that have made RMA happy as hell?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RMA Survivor

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #88 on: September 25, 2009, 08:52:54 PM »
My apologies.  You Guests can be hard to differentiate sometimes.   My bad.  And I am not John Reuben.  And I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline try another castle

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Re: Long-Term Outcome Studies
« Reply #89 on: September 25, 2009, 09:03:31 PM »
Quote from: "RMA Survivor"
Did we even have cell phones in 1984? I so fucking old I don't remember.  All I remember is that it was uphill both ways to the main house.  Literally.  Torture for me was not having a cell phone.  It was not having Mountain Dew.  If it is ever listed as a drug, I can say I was an addict.  And wouldn't that have made RMA happy as hell?


cell phones? Amazingly enough, the "brick" came out in 83, and was disgustingly expensive.

A bit before that was the cordless phone.


But before that, there were bag phones and  walkie talkies. From as far back as the 40s or 50s, I think.


So, essentially, the mobile has been around for quite some time.

I've wanted a bag phone for a while.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »