My son at Aspen Ranch

[Whooter]

You contribute so little to conversations enabling them to have some form of conclusion.  More people have to respond to you and your trite little comments than about the topic at hand.  When the topic is about Nigel, you take the topic elsewhere.  Nigel came here asking advice, you gave anecdotes that were not even your own really.  Now he has had to come back and justify himself and prove he is a father with a teenage son at the program because rather than talk to Nigel and give him constructive feedback, you and maybe some others took the focus off him and this thread and turned it in to something else.  

See you are wrong, those were not my posts.  They were your trolls you were talking about, not me.    You are trying to discredit me again because I disagree with you on many topics including the effectiveness of programs.  My posts to Nigel have been on topic and relative.  You seem to have a problem with people who disagree with you.

[RMA Survivor]

You contribute so little to conversations enabling them to have some form of conclusion.  More people have to respond to you and your trite little comments than about the topic at hand.  When the topic is about Nigel, you take the topic elsewhere.  Nigel came here asking advice, you gave anecdotes that were not even your own really.  Now he has had to come back and justify himself and prove he is a father with a teenage son at the program because rather than talk to Nigel and give him constructive feedback, you and maybe some others took the focus off him and this thread and turned it in to something else.  

See you are wrong, those were not my posts.  They were your trolls you were talking about, not me.    You are trying to discredit me again because I disagree with you on many topics including the effectiveness of programs.  My posts to Nigel have been on topic and relative.  You seem to have a problem with people who disagree with you.

My trolls?  Are you seriously trying to suggest that I post as a Guest here?  Is this where you are trying to take this argument?  Do you have anything whatsoever to further contribute on this thread to Nigel's questions and issues or are we now just discussing you?  As we seem to be on every thread.

What you consider on-topic is not actually on topic.  And you only argue minutiae.  The actual argument or topic is apparently far beyond your abilities to discuss.  This thread is about Nigel, do you have anything further to add here that relates to his original post and follow-on posts or not?  And will you shut up about other crap and focus on his topic or not?  Because you don't seem to be able to address Nigel, you only seem to be able to make inane and senseless comments about the posts of others.  And they are always a repeated performance with nothing new or original to add, or focused exclusively on some minor and insignificant issue.  

Nigel's post was about asking for help.  Can you stay focused on that or not?

[Whooter]

You contribute so little to conversations enabling them to have some form of conclusion.  More people have to respond to you and your trite little comments than about the topic at hand.  When the topic is about Nigel, you take the topic elsewhere.  Nigel came here asking advice, you gave anecdotes that were not even your own really.  Now he has had to come back and justify himself and prove he is a father with a teenage son at the program because rather than talk to Nigel and give him constructive feedback, you and maybe some others took the focus off him and this thread and turned it in to something else.  

See you are wrong, those were not my posts.  They were your trolls you were talking about, not me.    You are trying to discredit me again because I disagree with you on many topics including the effectiveness of programs.  My posts to Nigel have been on topic and relative.  You seem to have a problem with people who disagree with you.

My trolls?  Are you seriously trying to suggest that I post as a Guest here?  Is this where you are trying to take this argument?  Do you have anything whatsoever to further contribute on this thread to Nigel's questions and issues or are we now just discussing you?  As we seem to be on every thread.

What you consider on-topic is not actually on topic.  And you only argue minutiae.  The actual argument or topic is apparently far beyond your abilities to discuss.  This thread is about Nigel, do you have anything further to add here that relates to his original post and follow-on posts or not?  And will you shut up about other crap and focus on his topic or not?  Because you don't seem to be able to address Nigel, you only seem to be able to make inane and senseless comments about the posts of others.  And they are always a repeated performance with nothing new or original to add, or focused exclusively on some minor and insignificant issue.  

Nigel's post was about asking for help.  Can you stay focused on that or not?

You are the one trying to make it about me.  You have derailed this thread as well as others with your insistance that people agree with you.  I have been on topic since page one and I dont agree with all your postings.  I cant change that.  Now post something relevant to Aspen Ranch, if you have anything otherwise take it to another thread.  This isnt fair to others who are trying to follow along.

[RMA Survivor]

Wow, the exact same tactic of trying to reverse my accusations against you, back on to me.  Imagine my shock and surprise.  I find you to be of juvenile level logic, and I find your arguments to still lack substance.  And I still wait an original post on your part offering Nigel assistance to his problems and concerns for his son.  I however will not be holding my breath waiting for it to come.

[Whooter]

Wow, the exact same tactic of trying to reverse my accusations against you, back on to me.  Imagine my shock and surprise.  I find you to be of juvenile level logic, and I find your arguments to still lack substance.  And I still wait an original post on your part offering Nigel assistance to his problems and concerns for his son.  I however will not be holding my breath waiting for it to come.

Seems you havent offered any yourself in awhile you are wasting pages trolling me.  Why not try to be a little more mature and stick to the topic.

[RMA Survivor]

In a while?  Nigel made a post earlier and I responded to it.  Since then I have had to deal with you while waiting for Nigel to return.  And Nigel was kind enough to comment that he is finding my posts useful.  Something nobody is saying for you.  But I will still wait another four minutes for you to reply.  Will it be original or will it be another flip-the-box on to me, using my argument to make your point?  One original piece would be nice, but I don't hold out much hope for that.  I guess it will be just you and me till Nigel finds time in his busy quest to help his son to return here, wade through our thrilling and bland comments and give us an update.  Which I will comment on, offering him advice and insight, and then you will immediately post about my comments.

[Whooter]

In a while?  Nigel made a post earlier and I responded to it.  Since then I have had to deal with you while waiting for Nigel to return.  And Nigel was kind enough to comment that he is finding my posts useful.  Something nobody is saying for you.  But I will still wait another four minutes for you to reply.  Will it be original or will it be another flip-the-box on to me, using my argument to make your point?  One original piece would be nice, but I don't hold out much hope for that.  I guess it will be just you and me till Nigel finds time in his busy quest to help his son to return here, wade through our thrilling and bland comments and give us an update.  Which I will comment on, offering him advice and insight, and then you will immediately post about my comments.

Why couldnt you just wait instead of attacking guest posters who disagree with you, thereby stretching the thread out for pages of your crap?  There are many people here who have found this thread useful as it is without your trolling.  I dont think it is fair to them.  Some advice in the future, RMA, would be if other posters post information that you dont agree with just let it go and let the readers decide. Let Nigel decide if the information is worth reading or not.  Its better than reading all your arguments for pages.  Stop your flame war and grow up.

[RMA Survivor]

I accused you of this same thing originally.  Your entire argument is really now down to just blaming me for what I blamed you?  That people here accused you of being a troll so you are now accusing me of being one.  Nigel approved of my advice, so clearly to him it was helpful.  The only reason these pages go on and on is because you keep responding to everything everyone else has said, not contributing anything original or useful yourself, and I keep responding to your drivel for one very simple reason.  I just don't like seeing you listed as the last poster as though you have somehow won points or can claim some sort of victory.  Because I think you need that.  You appear to need to get the last post in, so I have decided to make it my job to outpost you, to shoot down your weak arguments and to point out the circle logic you continually use because you have no skills at speech and debate and this is obvious.  

I am quite content to post another two hundred times, right after you post, to see how far you can really go without saying anything useful.

[Whooter]

Well thats real mature,  I am sure Nigel will be impressed with you as the rest of us are.  If the last post is that important and gets us back on topic then have at it!!  Why didnt you say having the last post was important to you right off?  It would have saved many posts for others to sift through.

So go ahead and have it.  But try to be a little more tolerant of others opinions, It shows better character and others will go easier on you and your opinons also.....  it works both ways.

Stay happy

[RMA Survivor]

I figured if I didn't say something to rattle you, you might give up.  I can't have that now. You have addicted me to arguing with you.  I now live for it.  Whenever I see one of your posts I will be compelled against my will to respond and shoot down your arguments, such as they are.  Assuming you aren't just using my own arguments, which is really mature as you like to say now.  Did you just learn that word?  Oh wait..no, I mentioned it a couple of days ago to you.  I keep forgetting you have nothing original to say.  Maybe that is what makes you such a fascinating debater.

[Troll Control]

TheWho, fully owned again, goes back to what he knows: accusing others of being him, of being off topic and of derailing the thread which he has just finished derailing.

He got you, RMA Survivor.  He sucked you in to arguing with him, made it about you and the topic gets lost.

If it's any condolence, it just means you fully owned him and he gave up trying to win the argument.

[RMA Survivor]

I was well known at RMA for being dead right.  I was even Dudley Do-Right.  

I remember clearly the day I was blown away in a rap for three full hours for using the word circumnavigate in a sentence.  I apparently made a kid feel small by using a large word.  You would think the conversation would have lasted two minutes explaining that, I apologize, we move on... Nope.  And this Whooster guy seems to be the same breed.  Takes the most insignificant and builds it in to the significant.  

Not sure I would ever admit to being sucked in.  I knew his game.  He wants to be the last to post, to dumb-down topics and threads to a juvenile level, and as you pointed out in another read, to possibly prevent more important threads from remaining relevant and up front.  Like ones he no longer wants to argue about.  

But you can't fault me too much for wanting to trash talk him.  He so deserves it.  And I never get to have fun.

[Che Gookin]

"blown away" for those of you not in the know is where staff and kids verbally jump the shit of a person to the point where the person is in tears, and from the sounds of it they didn't stop with just that.

[NIGEL]

Hi,  My phone call with my son was moved to today (from Monday).  This was "hands down" our best phone call to date.  My son made it to the next level (Maverick).  He claimed it was no big deal, but I made sure he knew it was a big deal to me.  He seemed to understand this.  I was very impressed not only with how the therapist talked with us, but also with my son.  He wants me to send some music (I can donate CD's to the ranch as long as they don't have curse words, or violent or sexual references).  He wants me to send him some CD's by "Massive Attack" and "The Mars Volta."  If there are any musically inclined people out there----do you think these will be approved?  We talked about my visit in October and he seemed very excited about it.  He asked about his friends at home (this is where he got quite emotional as he feels he treated some of his friends very poorly and he wants to make amends).  The therapist has OK'd for him to write some letters to his friends.  

With all that being said, it is obvious he still doesn't want to be there.  I am formulating my next move.  During my visit, I am not going to make any deals with him (I'm sure he is going to ask to come home).  Instead, I am going to listen to all he has to say and then let him know that I want him to put his best foot forward, try hard in his academics, and listen to the advice he is being given and then act on it.  I will assure him that I have heard what he has to say and will continue to evaluate this whole experience every day.  I will tell him that I will bring him home when I feel the time is right.  I am hoping that I will continue to see improvement, and then I will decide when is the best time to bring him home.  

I'm sure there are more than a few of you that think my biggest mistake was sending him in the first place (I'm not discounting your opinions, and I still can't claim whether or not it was the right one), but I think I can make an even bigger mistake (now) if I bring him home before it is time and without a good game plan.  I am including him in this process.  I have talked to him about where he wants to go to school.  He is the one who has brouht up rules for our household (I'm sure his therapist has been the one to encourage this discussion).   If I think for a second that The Aspen Ranch isn't for my son, I will pull him.

If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, please respond.  I'm sure I will hear from those of you who think I work for the ranch, or I am in cahoots with "The Who".  But for those of you who are trying to give me constructive advice, I thank you very much.  If you feel I am screwing up with any of the above, let me know (like I had to ask).  Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Hi,  My phone call with my son was moved to today (from Monday).  This was "hands down" our best phone call to date.  My son made it to the next level (Maverick).  He claimed it was no big deal, but I made sure he knew it was a big deal to me.  He seemed to understand this.  I was very impressed not only with how the therapist talked with us, but also with my son.  He wants me to send some music (I can donate CD's to the ranch as long as they don't have curse words, or violent or sexual references).  He wants me to send him some CD's by "Massive Attack" and "The Mars Volta."  If there are any musically inclined people out there----do you think these will be approved?  We talked about my visit in October and he seemed very excited about it.  He asked about his friends at home (this is where he got quite emotional as he feels he treated some of his friends very poorly and he wants to make amends).  The therapist has OK'd for him to write some letters to his friends.  

With all that being said, it is obvious he still doesn't want to be there.  I am formulating my next move.  During my visit, I am not going to make any deals with him (I'm sure he is going to ask to come home).  Instead, I am going to listen to all he has to say and then let him know that I want him to put his best foot forward, try hard in his academics, and listen to the advice he is being given and then act on it.  I will assure him that I have heard what he has to say and will continue to evaluate this whole experience every day.  I will tell him that I will bring him home when I feel the time is right.  I am hoping that I will continue to see improvement, and then I will decide when is the best time to bring him home.  

I'm sure there are more than a few of you that think my biggest mistake was sending him in the first place (I'm not discounting your opinions, and I still can't claim whether or not it was the right one), but I think I can make an even bigger mistake (now) if I bring him home before it is time and without a good game plan.  I am including him in this process.  I have talked to him about where he wants to go to school.  He is the one who has brouht up rules for our household (I'm sure his therapist has been the one to encourage this discussion).   If I think for a second that The Aspen Ranch isn't for my son, I will pull him.

If anyone has any thoughts on any of this, please respond.  I'm sure I will hear from those of you who think I work for the ranch, or I am in cahoots with "The Who".  But for those of you who are trying to give me constructive advice, I thank you very much.  If you feel I am screwing up with any of the above, let me know (like I had to ask).  Thanks!

Yep, you are theit, and oddly post in tandem with another pro-program guest ("anything can be therapeutic, even a sunset"). Your a hired, torture promoting astro turfer. That people indulge your fiction is nothing new on fornits, and almost as pathetic as YOU.

reality, sworn statements
http://www.heal-online.org/aspenranch.htm


ASPEN RANCH

IN LOA, UT
SURVIVOR REPORTS
 
SURVIVOR REPORT #1 BY ANONYMOUS
I wish I knew where to begin. I will try to focus on the most disturbing experiences i can
remember but, like many other survivors of such programs i find myself having a hard time remembering everything that went on.

 For the first two weeks you arrive at Aspen Ranch you are placed on a level known as round-up.  During this period of
time you are either silent in a basement, or outside doing manual labor (changing watering pipes, building fences etc).  
You can not have any contact with your parents and get to talk to a therapist maybe once or twice.  One July morning when I refused to go outside, the sheets were ripped out from under me and I was carried and thrown onto a staircase where two men put my shoes on picked me up and dragged me to the field where I was to work.  Afraid of any other forms of punishment,I did.  Being physically threatened is a major way they get you to follow the rules.  

Every week you got to speak with your parents,  on speakerphone, with your therapist present for 20 minutes.  If you ever tried to tell your parents about the torture you were suffering through the conversation would be immediately terminated.  All letters were read before sent, all incoming mail opened read and inspected before given to you.  The only contact allowed was to your parents and had to be positive.  On top of whatever work project your team was assigned to each day you also had to participate in an hour long physical, no matter how physically drained you were.  People would sometimes pass out or break down begging to stop but, for the most part the physical went on for as long as the supervisor saw fit.  

The psychological abuse was never ending, if you were suspected of doing something wrong you would be forced to go into the basement and sit at a desk until you admitted what you were accused of.  We were often threatened to be sent to an out of country program where we were told  where was no child labor laws, I still don't know if this program exists but, the mere threat was enough to keep most of us "in line".  I could go on forever with stories of this sort.  My main point though, please do not put your child through this, two years later I am still suffering from the lies I was fed.
 
Please protect my identity.  I know this is not a complete story but I think it gets the point across.  If you need my full
name and dates I attended the program for your own records I can let you know, thanks so much for raising awareness about such horrible programs.
 
SURVIVOR REPORT #2 BY ANON
These are all factual events that take place at aspen ranch everyday, these are events that have taken place and will
continue to unless someone takes action soon. Everything in my statement is true and I give HEAL permission to use my
statement.  I am a survivor of the aspen ranch school, located in Loa, UT.  A Theraputic Boarding school/ rehabilitation
center.....my ass.  Aspen Ranch uses a physical restraint system called PCS (positive control system) which is actually
FAR from positive. PCS includes a barrage or various pressure points and bent wrists, locked joints, and strained tendons.
Once put into PCS submission you are held here by a minimum of 3 staff, you're pulse regularly checked to indicate your
level of anger.  You are normally on the ground (also known as "Carpet Time" for a norm of 45 minutes to an hour)  They use any method of getting you down, whether it be calmly asking you to cooperate with them or tackling you through a crowd of people onto concrete (which seems to be a staff favorite). I have seen many of my friends at Aspen Ranch end up with broken wrists from PCS. I have myself lost the feeling in the tips of my fingers for days  as a result of being held in PCS submission for over 3 hours. Once you are PCSed (on top of everything) you have to go to R&R (redirection and recovery) more commonly known as the room where you where red sweat pants and sweat shirts even in the dead of the summer (in the Desert) to no avail.  The "on campus" psychiatrist's prescribe you medications based on staff behavioral reports, without even consulting you to see how you feel about putting a new foreign substance into your body or checking past medical records (could be detrimental to your well being).   For example I myself was a bit ADHD according to staff, and the staff apparently thought that they were doing me a favor recommending that i be prescribed to ritalin (methylphindate), which actually led to a number of seizures...to bad they didn't bother to  check to see if my family had a history of amphetamine related seizures.  thanks aspen ranch!!
-Anon