Author Topic: My son at Aspen Ranch  (Read 94717 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
« Reply #345 on: October 08, 2009, 06:58:34 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Guest"
"Point Scoring. Point scoring is a method of communication that prioritizes making certain points favorable to the speaker, and attacking opponents of the speaker by trying to undermine their positions. Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding genuine discussion...Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyze what they hear. Rather, they register only a few key points, and form a vague impression of whose 'argument' was stronger."
http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Troll Control

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Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
« Reply #346 on: October 09, 2009, 08:59:34 AM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Guest"
^Whooter, spinning his wheels^  Above has been thoroughly debunked for several years.  It was a questionaire, not a study.  Not peer-reviewed or published, either.  0/10, Whooter.

This was debunked years ago.  No need to rehash this old failure, Whooter.  If I remember correctly, Deborah fully owned you on this topic several times.

Yes, it was.  TheWho got very upset when the numbers showed 65% of ASR graduates go right back to drugs, like his kid did.  Many end up dead from ODs before they reach 21, like his kid did.  

This was just another survey, filled out by parents of 'graduates' so there can't be any conclusions drawn from it.  Ms. Shapiro also commented that it was not a scientific study.  Either way, the numbers she came up with looked really bad for ASR.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Whooter

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Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
« Reply #347 on: October 09, 2009, 09:36:17 AM »
Here is one of many findings an independent study done by Colgate University and published the findings in the medical journal.

Psychiatric medication was used by 60% of the student sample prior to ASR, and only 46% of the student sample after ASR. Before treatment, the average ASR student was suspended 1.5 times and ran away from home 1.1 times, but has done neither since.

Students have similar impressions about the improvement of their situation. They feel that their families create less stress in their lives now than prior to ASR (p ? .01). They also believe the following areas to have shown improvement (p ? .001): the ease of learning, the quality and support of their peer relationships, social support from their parents, honesty and communication within the family, the individual relationships with their mother and father, feeling pleased with his or her own behavior, having a parent pleased with his or her behavior, the degree to which the child creates stress in the family unit, the fairness of parental expectation, and his or her overall happiness. The amount of organized activities that these students participated in did not show any significant change, though 53% of the students reported presently playing team sports, 16% committing to recreational outdoor activities, 16% doing community service, 10% working on student governments, 6% writing publications, 6% contributing to the arts, 3% participating in theatre, and 3% joining religious groups.

Link to Study

Kids do much better post program and are integrated back into their home lives and schooling.  Amazing success.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Troll Control

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Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
« Reply #348 on: October 09, 2009, 11:51:49 AM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Guest"
^Whooter, spinning his wheels^  Above has been thoroughly debunked for several years.  It was a questionaire, not a study.  Not peer-reviewed or published, either.  0/10, Whooter.

This was debunked years ago.  No need to rehash this old failure, Whooter.  If I remember correctly, Deborah fully owned you on this topic several times.

Yes, it was.  TheWho got very upset when the numbers showed 65% of ASR graduates go right back to drugs, like his kid did.  Many end up dead from ODs before they reach 21, like his kid did.  

This was just another survey, filled out by parents of 'graduates' so there can't be any conclusions drawn from it.  Ms. Shapiro also commented that it was not a scientific study.  Either way, the numbers she came up with looked really bad for ASR.

This survey was done by a grad student, not Colgate University, as Whooter would have you believe.  It is not peer-reviewed, nor published.
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Offline Troll Control

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Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
« Reply #349 on: October 09, 2009, 11:55:19 AM »
Whooter's link leads to "student papers."  Now any student paper is a study?  Big failure trying to pass this off as legitimate research.  Sad try, Whooter.  This is why your credibility here is zero.  Not only are you a phony, but the 'evidence' you link to is just some kid's paper.  Ha, ha, ha.  I can see why you get so frustrated, but making things up won't help you get the attention you want.
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Offline Ursus

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"Is Long-Term Residential Treatment Effective for Adolescent
« Reply #350 on: October 09, 2009, 01:12:17 PM »
There is nothing inherently wrong with research done by a student per se, as it would have been overseen by a faculty member. However, Valerie B. Shapiro's paper, "Is Long-Term Residential Treatment Effective for Adolescents? A Treatment Outcome Study," is clearly material that was used to fulfill graduation requirements, rather than any ground breaking research that would have made it into a peer-reviewed journal on its own merits.

Despite an apparent posture of good and scrupulous intentions, Shapiro evidently does not know enough about the notoriously unscrupulous marketing habits of this industry, nor know enough about the targeted program itself. Much of her description of ASR appears to have been taken at face value, straight from an ASR brochure:

    "ASR provides an accredited high school education on the grounds in addition to 24-hour crisis intervention services and behavioral observation."[/list]

    Moreover, the actual number of participants in this survey is staggeringly low. It is impossible to draw any meaningful statistical conclusions from the data. There were fewer student surveys returned for analysis (17), than there are pages in this paper. Perhaps this is why the results discussed in the text, as well as the tables, are expressed almost exclusively in terms of percentages.

    Pages 11 and 12 do give some relevant facts:

      Participants in the present study
      Participants in this study are students that graduated the Academy of Swift River between the dates of December 17, 1999 and November 16, 2001. Of the 191 students that were scheduled to graduate during this time period, 151 actually graduated. Some of the cited reasons for dropping out include the transfer into another program, self-dismissal at age eighteen, medical leave, and running away. Of those that graduated, 125 students had mailing addresses that could be verified through the yellow pages and other Internet search engines. This excluded 3 graduates living outside the United States, 24 graduates with a name change or an unlisted address, and 1 graduate who had committed suicide.
      [/list]
        A Description of the Respondents
        Thirty families agreed to participate in this extensive survey, making for a 24% response rate. Of these families, only 2 returned more than one parent questionnaire, and only 17 students returned their self-reports. Of the parent respondents, 70% were mothers, 20% fathers, 3% stepmothers, and 7% both mothers and fathers in collaboration. Thirty-eight percent of these parents reported living with the graduate, 30% reported living apart from the graduate, and 33% reported living with the graduate on a part-time basis. Table 1 presents additional demographic information on the present family structure of ASR graduates. Two-thirds of these parents had a male graduate. Parents reported speaking to their child an average of more than twice a week, but not quite daily.

        The student respondents ranged in age from 16-20 years old (M = 17.9). Half of them were female, and all but one was Caucasian. Of all the 30 students for whom data were collected, 13% returned to his or her original school after ASR, 3% enrolled in a new public school, 10% enrolled in a new private school while living at home, 33% attended a residential boarding school, 6.7% attended college while living at home, 23% went straight to a residential college, 3% found employment while living at home, and 6% attended other residential programs for adolescents. At the time of the survey, 40% were juniors or seniors in high school, 30% were in their first year of college, and 13% were in their second year of college. A total of 56% of students reported some attempt at a college education, though only 43% of the students were enrolled at the time of the study. Sixty-six percent of students reported currently having a job. The average ASR graduate reported contact with somebody from his or her ASR graduating class within the past two weeks and with a staff member within the past three months. The length of time since graduation for this sample ranged from 6.5 to 26.5 months, the average being 13.9 months.
        [/list]
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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        Offline Whooter

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        Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
        « Reply #351 on: October 09, 2009, 01:38:22 PM »
        Quote
        Despite apparently good intentions, Shapiro evidently does not know enough about the notoriously unscrupulous marketing habits of this industry, nor know enough about the targeted program itself. Much of her description of ASR appears to have been taken at face value, straight from ASR marketing materials:


        "ASR provides an accredited high school education on the grounds in addition to 24-hour crisis intervention services and behavioral observation."

        Cant get much more independent than that.  So what you are saying is someone who knows the industry better, like a person with first hand experience would be in a better position to conduct the research?  Maybe if someone who worked at a program for awhile and then left and started their own research company may understand the industry a little more and be in a better position to perform a stronger study and be able to see thru the marketing a little better.

        We have had studies from both ends of the spectrum...those with intimate knowledge and those with no knowledge of the industry at all and both ends reported that the programs were beneficial to the kids and families and no abuse was found in any study.
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        Offline Troll Control

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        Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
        « Reply #352 on: October 09, 2009, 06:36:10 PM »
        I agree with Ursus here.  This is nothing more than a student paper for a psych class.  It's no study and it's not scientific in method.  I'm a research scientist and this isn't research science, my friends.
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        Offline Whooter

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        Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
        « Reply #353 on: October 09, 2009, 06:44:51 PM »
        Quote from: "Pete DeGroot"
        I agree with Ursus here.  This is nothing more than a student paper for a psych class.  It's no study and it's not scientific in method.  I'm a research scientist and this isn't research science, my friends.

        Thanks for concuring with Ursus. He stated that the study was valid, although conducted by a student, it was overseen by faculty at Colgate University and published in their Scientific journal of Medicine.

        So we even have a Research scientitst that agrees this is a valid peer reviewed, published study and since Shapiro had no conections to the industry it is considered Independent.
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        Offline Anonymous

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        Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
        « Reply #354 on: October 09, 2009, 06:45:49 PM »
        Quote from: "Pete DeGroot"
        I agree with Ursus here.  This is nothing more than a student paper for a psych class.  It's no study and it's not scientific in method.  I'm a research scientist and this isn't research science, my friends.

        You should comment on EB's "survey." Programies seek to sow confusion about what constitutes a clinical study. Perhaps fill them in on that remakable thing called scientific method and protocal.
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

        Offline Whooter

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        Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
        « Reply #355 on: October 09, 2009, 06:47:52 PM »
        Quote from: "John Randall"
        Quote from: "Pete DeGroot"
        I agree with Ursus here....

        Thanks for concuring with Ursus. He stated that the study was valid, although conducted by a student, it was overseen by faculty at Colgate University and published in their Scientific journal of Medicine.

        So we even have a Research scientitst that agrees this is a valid peer reviewed, published study and since Shapiro had no conections to the industry it is considered Independent.

        Here is a bio on the author who conducted the research:

         
        Valerie Shapiro

        She was selected to be the 2007 Gottlieb Fellow and awarded summer funding to participate in the NIH Multidisciplinary Predoctoral Clinical Research Training Program. In 2008-2009, she will work with the Social Development Research Group as an NIMH Prevention Trainee using a prevention science framework to research risk and protection factors in child development, the implementation of community-level interventions, and questions regarding the scalability and sustainability of tested-effective programs.

        Currently she is working on papers examining whether the SSDP “Students for Sensible Drug Policy” intervention worked better (or worse) for people who were high in behavioral disinhibition/externalizing, as well as a qualitative paper examining the transition to adulthood for youths involved in crime and drugs during adolescence.
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        Offline Whooter

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        Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
        « Reply #356 on: October 09, 2009, 07:43:42 PM »
        Quote from: "Eliscu2"
        If you drink the Kool-Aid it takes a while to wear off.


        Thats why programs run as long as they do.  You take the average kid who has been exposed to his friends and doing drugs, out of control and feels he/she just wants to live for today, screw going to school, screw the family, screw tomorrow... lets just party our lives away!!!!!!!!

        This is the cool-aid he/she had been drinking for a last few years and finally the parents catch wind and try to get help locally, but once the kid is hooked and set on this life style (i.e. has drank the cool-aid) nothing is going to change his mind..... and that is why programs were invented.  It takes awhile to wean the kid off the cool-aid and onto another flavor.. one that is healthier for them.
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

        Offline Anonymous

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        Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
        « Reply #357 on: October 10, 2009, 11:50:34 AM »
        "Point Scoring. Point scoring is a method of communication that prioritizes making certain points favorable to the speaker, and attacking opponents of the speaker by trying to undermine their positions. Point scoring communication ought to give the appearance of rational debate, whilst avoiding genuine discussion...Point scoring works because most audience members fail to analyze what they hear. Rather, they register only a few key points, and form a vague impression of whose 'argument' was stronger."
        http://www.middle-east-info.org/take/wujshasbara.pdf
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        Offline Troll Control

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        Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
        « Reply #358 on: October 10, 2009, 12:51:24 PM »
        Quote from: "Guest"
        Quote from: "Guest"
        Quote from: "Guest"
        ^Whooter, spinning his wheels^  Above has been thoroughly debunked for several years.  It was a questionaire, not a study.  Not peer-reviewed or published, either.  0/10, Whooter.

        This was debunked years ago.  No need to rehash this old failure, Whooter.  If I remember correctly, Deborah fully owned you on this topic several times.

        Yes, it was.  TheWho got very upset when the numbers showed 65% of ASR graduates go right back to drugs, like his kid did.  Many end up dead from ODs before they reach 21, like his kid did.  

        This was just another survey, filled out by parents of 'graduates' so there can't be any conclusions drawn from it.  Ms. Shapiro also commented that it was not a scientific study.  Either way, the numbers she came up with looked really bad for ASR.

        It showed ASR to be more than 65% ineffective.  And that's only for "graduates" which make up only 25% of ASR attendees.  So about a 75% failure off the top, then 65% failure of the remaining 25%.  Not so good, people.  Not so good.
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        Offline Anonymous

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        Re: My son at Aspen Ranch
        « Reply #359 on: October 10, 2009, 01:08:34 PM »
        Quote from: "Roger Glasdco"
        finally the parents catch wind
        :rofl:

        And just what were the parents doing for all those years before they "caught wind".   :on phone:  Lets see, the kid doesn't go to school, hangs with a "bad" crowd, does drugs has a fuck everything except partying attitude and it takes the parents HOW long to "catch wind" of this?  Those are some pretty ignorant and neglectful "parents".  So instead of facing the consequences of their  neglectful, disinterested, "enabling" behavior they punish the kids (and get rid of the annoying problem) by abandoning them to a "program"....
         throw some money at it and you are off the hook! You just confirmed  my belief that its the parents who belong in programs. :ftard:
        « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »