state of the forum

[Anonymous]

I was lucky enough to be a participant in this forum in its heyday, and I did use it to resolve some issues and feelings that still clung to me after decades. I was in the Seed in '72-73. I will always be grateful to Greg and to Ginger for creating this space. And to others too, like "Cleveland" (Walter) and Marshall and Terry ("Ft. Lauderdale") and many others who contributed with honesty and heart to the discussion.

Because I wrote a memoir about the Seed which is on the Web and widely read, I often get emails about the Seed from former Seedlings looking for some  kind of connection or resolution or . . . just a reality check. For a long time, I knew I could confidently refer them here, to this forum, where I myself found nurture and support and communion for some time.

I have also had email exchanges with Stack Jones. I knew that Stack was still angry, but so are many people. I was a little alarmed when Stack emailed me Lybbi's contact info, but I never would have expected what I've seen here. I just checked this forum closely for the first time in months.

Stack, if you're out there reading this, I still think of you as a good person and in the greater sense, as a friend. But the level of rage you have brought to this forum is frightening to me, and I am concerned that it must alienate many people who come here looking for some comfort and some reasonable conversation about what happened, and to compare notes about how we've all processed the Seed, this terrible chapter of our lives, and how we have or have not put our lives back together over the years.

I have no judgment on anyone for remaining angry or still feeling injured. While I owe Greg an undying debt of gratitude for the forum, I disagree with what he said to someone about how they should get over something that happened 40 years ago. I don't think we are ever in a position to tell other people to "get over it" because really, we've all been hurt and injured in different ways. We're all suffering in different ways. That's how life is. And I think the deeper pain we're in, the  more rage we feel, and the more we believe that if we can get revenge it might  accomplish something.

So this is a call to Stack and anyone else who is hurting so much that they would desire revenge. I love you. I mean it. I'm so sorry you are hurting so deeply. But please understand that violent language and hateful words will not help you or anyone. Nor will an Art Barker suicide, or tormenting Lybbi or John Underwood . . . their pain will not alleviate yours. In fact, I want to assure you of something. They are in pain already. Really. Believe it. They have not escaped their "karma."

I want this to be a forum again where people can come and have rational--if heated--discussion. Where  people are essentially safe.

That's all. I'm typing this in an airport, about to board a plane. Gotta go. I wish  everyone reading this peace of heart and mind! Thanks again for the forum.

[Cyndeelouwho]

Thanks Marc, you are an inspiration and thoughtful contributer.

Thanks for the karma reminder.

Love you, and not in the seed way LOL.

Cheers and safe travels , my "druggie" friend..(just joking)

[justonemore]

Dear marc.. i'm looking up that memoir as soon as i close this I was unaware of this. As to what you said..Hear! hear! as to revenge, well for me no revenge could ever undo what's been done, could ever make me whole. that's the main problem with revenge. However, that this ocurred, and that it still occurs, really baffles me. It baffles me that so many people were able to get away with such serious offenses, were simply able to say " hey we're sorry, but we meant well"
or even worse " well, if you are angry at this mistreatment it' s because of your bad attitude." So many malicious people will damage others and then insist that the victim forgive and take the spiritual "high road". the problem with that "high road" is that it leaves the perpetrators free to continue, and continue they will. So, for me, i continue to seek answers, and to me, no, the Seed Saga doesn't end with the barker clan. In my understanding, and yes, i've pondered the question, God loves justice as well as he loves forgiveness." every hidden thing uncovered, every secret thing revealed"  oh boy! it's that little guy again ::unhappy::

[Cyndeelouwho]

Here is a link to Marc's memoir, for those who would like to view it

(Thank you, Marc!)

http://www.thesunmagazine.org/issues/373/the_seed

Full version  here :

http://lonesouls.org/marc-polonsky.htm

[Anonymous]

I still say a good day in Court. :twofinger:  :whip:  :rasta:

[Anonymous]

marc thanks.

like you, i am a published writer.

however...

i posted - contemporary horror movie depictions, in the style of hostel, martyr's, etc. in a whimsical manner to decapitate barker, and off his majority staff.  the decapitation was intended as a symbol to get rid of those programs, once and for all.

i knew lybbi and her husband were reading the forum, and following along. and they began to post spew.

in that, i wanted to show that they had not changed at all.

i called lybby before i posted a word about her.

she hung up.

didn't want to talk about it at all.

kinda like klaus barbie if you ask me.

aging doesn't get rid of responsibility. and neither does denial.

i had a blast writing what i wrote. and i am not repentant.

how anybody took it serious is beyond me.

and the obit.

that was obviously nothing more than a mockery of barker's self-importance.

i believe that when he does kick the bucket, he won't even have that much said about him.

i found it very freaky that people contacted the paper, and the funeral home trying to find out the memorial date.

i mean really -- who cares!!!

who could not see the wording in that obit, and immediately acknowledge that it was a dud.

obviously, some dude name ericbeer. he couldn't accept it on face value, and began to threaten my sister with physical violence and even to kill her dog.

this guy went from happy to hear barker was dead, to the reality that it was a dud, to violently threatening my sister, and her dog. and she didn't even post the false obit. i did!

as odd as it may seem, i intended to pull people in, to see their reaction to any of this.

i am surprised how many people said - my words -- mere banter, and jest, ended up with the rational that I AM WAY WORSE THAN BARKER OR ANY OF THEM EVER WERE.

wow!

 mere ...   typed  ...   words.

i mean really -- shelly saying - he was my best friend -- alluding to that stupid song we had to sing, art barker father of the seed, he's my best friend. whenever we go out, the people always shout there goes art barker father of the seed. la la la la la alal a.

personally, i wouldn't be moved one way or the other if he did blow his head off.

 america is not even part of my life.

its a society that is down and out and on its way down further, and the u.s. is not able to realize it yet.

--

here is a test.

if you choose to do it.

may take a few hours of research.

find an american product.

any product.

10k metric tons - 25 metric tons of it.

find a buyer. in other words, pick any other country and pretend you have a buyer for that product.

now try to get world market prices of that product.

anything.

rice, concrete, wheat, clothing, electronic goods, cars new or used -- whatever.

even with subsidies.

america can't compete globally and on any level.

example -- the u.s. wants 120 usd for 1 metric ton of concrete. the world price is 60 usd. china - 47 usd.

so, nobody is buying u.s. and probably never will again.

for too long the only thing that kept america going was the fact that it was a greedy consumer. in other words, money going out, and stuff coming in. but, the money stays out, and the goods get old and need to be replaced.

but, no money to replace it.

countries we call 3rd world will not purchase u.s. cars. because they can't get parts for them.

u.s. cars are the foreign cars.

it is not a shock when you look at the fact that no longer does the world buy GM, ford, or other u.s. cars.

why is toyota the #1 car company. because they understand supply and demand. that the world needs smaller vehicles that are sound and fuel savvy.

america tried to counter the japanese market with products like saturn.

well... those cars really suck. they are made like shit and are really ugly. they are not fuel efficient as the japanese cars.

another shocker to me, when i moved to japan was the fact that a new japanese car sells for 9-12 thousand dollars. and that is it.

the same cars - american are buying for 30-40k. and paying on it for 7 years.

the u.s. was busy making hum vees and gas guzzling suv's.

toyota, honda, nissan, subaru, and other mfgrs. from japan never wasted time in that market. they understood future supplies on crude. the u.s. only thinks in the present. a big mistake.

yes, toyota and nissan made a big truck for the u.s. market. but the rest of the world doesn't use what the u.s. makes.

--

i guess we should be focused on that.

and how america has millions of vacant homes.

if PEOPLE can't afford homes, then who will be the next consumers? martians. other worldly beings.

in a nutshell...

the u.s. doesn't get it. it won't get it any time soon. until the real crisis comes. and it has not come yet.

even in a bad economy. it just doesn't understand - it is not a global competitor.

there are new world orders and new world alliances.

if china, russia and iran become global partners -- economist and politicians agree -- the u.s. will fall into turmoil.

it will have no access to iran's vast oil supply and iran can destroy the market by creating low prices for its allies and cut off the u.s.

american politicians continuing to play power games with iran is counter productive.

to sum it up...

you don't have to worry about private programs like the seed destroying the u.s. kids.

the govt. -- public sectors are doing it all alone without their help.

(i'm sure the fodder will follow on this.)

[Anonymous]

Boy Stack you are not coming off very All American here.  You should post that last bit of info on your website, you'll have lots of people likeing you & buying your stuff.  If you did not have red hair or maybe grey by now you could join the Taliban.   Are you still an American?  Were you deported to Japan? or did someone buy you a one way ticket so you could write a new Godzilla comic book or something.

[Anonymous]

Jack lets remember the souls in here, they could care less about anything except what is going on in their lives, what is happening  to the world does not make anyone at all change, what will is when all the disasters hit at once, when they can no longer feed their kids, take them to the movies or where ever they go, because of no fuel, and when they open up there eyes, then it will be too late, when food is gone, and they  no longer have anything is when all will be wanting to change, but then, too late, I think your writings are great, I think you should write about  like you said important crap, because Fart barker is no way important, he never was, the attention these people focus on, some old man that is dead as far as I am concerned, is a joke compared to what should be focused on, I have yet heard anyone chat about what could be done to stop parents from making the wrong chooses for their kids that end up doing the time in these type of places. Because it is not the parents that do this horrible shit to the kids, and they have no clue it is even going on. I could go on for hours, but really find it  a waste of time, truth is, Americans suck except when they can wake up and go about their daily routine, and they really could care less what else is going on in their lives, the few that do, well bless them all, I think all should remember where all this pain came from,  it came from a place that was started by a few morons like everybody else in this world scamming to only think of themselves, You did a great job showing that Greg and his forum followers that do not even follow well, could care less about the soul that was hurting for one, they all focused on getting rid of the bad egg , they wanted so badly to go back to being the soft shells that they really are, everyone breaks in so many ways, but break we all become, its the building up part that I love, this experiment shows exactly what I wanted, it shows ignorant people of all walks, and it shows  abused souls at both ends,( the abusers, and being abused) if that is what happens 35 years later after the fact, I think this government should if it cared close every one of these places done, and start over by not allowing anyone to get rich quick, are make any profit at all helping anyone, because it is not help when 35 years later all are still upset and talking about what goes on in them, and the amount of brainwashed victims that think they made it and it did wonders,( because this day and age you should be yourself not a brainwashed out soul) it did not, as they would not argue and carry on in the manner as they did , not to mention they would not even be hanging out with your local druggies as they call them,which is what they are doing in here while attacking, (the ones they would not be allowed to hang out with.( so right there shows their hypocrisy  of how they are, only they can break rules I guess, because I so remember that  they were not allowed to hang  nor  be around anyone but the seed members), I also bet every last seedling that has been away from that place is getting stoned and having the time of their lives, they are either on meds of some kind, ( and yes even if your doctor gives you something it is still a drug and you are a user of a drug) ( druggie) quote you are still a druggie) and  this ego thing that greg has, being so jealous of  of a guy making  fiction stories to get his point out, that shows the experiment  is still going on, greg  said just as much crap as Jack did, funny thing Jack knew what he was doing, Greg acted out his  impulses,and neither one  knew they were on the same side, which is funnier, just shows no matter who you are that if you do not agree with the one who thinks he is the leader, then you are not welcome, in any shape size or color,( and until you are molded to fit in their world you are nothing but an enemy) I enjoyed myself proving to myself that this shit would never end,and I am glad I went on with my life( long time ago when the earth was still green) because there are too many gregs and Farts out there who are for themselves, and nothing else, greg feels he lead his team, I say he lead them no where, because this shit is still harming so many souls, they are still locked up  and still being forced against their will, to experience as all say, HELL. I think I will go stick this in my pipe and go feed my peacocks, they seem way smarter then all here, they for sure live free, and that's all I think everyone should be allowed to do, Peace even to the haters.( if you all think you have enemies in other countries, you should  remember the one in your own back yards)

[Anonymous]

I was lucky enough to be a participant in this forum in its heyday, and I did use it to resolve some issues and feelings that still clung to me after decades. I was in the Seed in '72-73. I will always be grateful to Greg and to Ginger for creating this space. And to others too, like "Cleveland" (Walter) and Marshall and Terry ("Ft. Lauderdale") and many others who contributed with honesty and heart to the discussion.

I agree Mark I read everything from the old forum thought I never partipated and it was awesome.  Also I loved your writing on the seed.

Because I wrote a memoir about the Seed which is on the Web and widely read, I often get emails about the Seed from former Seedlings looking for some  kind of connection or resolution or . . . just a reality check. For a long time, I knew I could confidently refer them here, to this forum, where I myself found nurture and support and communion for some time.

This is what happened for me except I found it by doing a ms search for art barker.  What a surprise when I found this forum and the neat discussion going on.

I have also had email exchanges with Stack Jones. I knew that Stack was still angry, but so are many people. I was a little alarmed when Stack emailed me Lybbi's contact info, but I never would have expected what I've seen here. I just checked this forum closely for the first time in months.

I was angry too when I started thinking about what those people did  The difference is I would never threaten violence against anyone. It makes me wonder what is wrong with people like that.

Stack, if you're out there reading this, I still think of you as a good person and in the greater sense, as a friend. But the level of rage you have brought to this forum is frightening to me, and I am concerned that it must alienate many people who come here looking for some comfort and some reasonable conversation about what happened, and to compare notes about how we've all processed the Seed, this terrible chapter of our lives, and how we have or have not put our lives back together over the years.

I guess the current rage on the forum has had the opposite affect on me as I never posted before now this garbage  makes me want to comment

I have no judgment on anyone for remaining angry or still feeling injured. While I owe Greg an undying debt of gratitude for the forum, I disagree with what he said to someone about how they should get over something that happened 40 years ago.
 

I went back and read what he posted again and maybe you misunderstood.It seems he was telling her not to get over it but instead to stop dealing with it in the manner she was  do you Mark think that fanastising about killing people and posting violent dreams is a productive way to deal with things that happened to you when you.  I dont'.  I think he made a good point.  Dealing with it is one thing ruining it for others and raging in public is another and I don't see where he ever said '"get over it" like you are saying.[/quote]

I don't think we are ever in a position to tell other people to "get over it" because really, we've all been hurt and injured in different ways. We're all suffering in different ways. That's how life is. And I think the deeper pain we're in, the  more rage we feel, and the more we believe that if we can get revenge it might  accomplish something.

again he never said that marc you arent reading it right

I want this to be a forum again where people can come and have rational--if heated--discussion. Where  people are essentially safe.

maybe you could moderate the forum Marc if ginger would allow it but from her comments it seems she is happy with what is going on.  what a shame what has hapened here.

[Anonymous]

http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php? ... =0#p338326

Perhaps you should seek a therapist to deal with this. Anger and rage at age 52 for things that happened to you 40 or so  years ago doesn't work and maybe a professional can help you deal with it.  You are slinging anger at people that aren't listening and/or don't care about  what you say because your message is juvenile and silly and downright counterproductive. Your communication is totally ineffective.

Your obession with Libby is unhealthy.  The things she "did" happened to her as well.  She was a child when she was put in the seed.  Do you know how she feels about her involvement with the seed  today?  Of course not.  But you choose to put people's names and address's on a website and assume that these people haven't changed at all in the last 40 years.  

  All you have managed to do here is make this forum unusable for everyone but yourself.   Maybe purging online in this forum  is working for you ( I doubt it, it seems the anger is picking up, not going away) , but for everyone else you are making a mess and ruining this forum.  A forum BTW that has helped hundreds of people come to terms with The Seed and how it affected their lives. At this point, anyone now who logs on looking for answers is proabably going to think anti-program people are all angry children that shouldn't be listened to, and they will be scared to participate because they won't want some nut looking up their personal information and posting it on a website.

You should log off the computer and go away.  Your participation is hurting you.



Just sayin.

This sounds very much like a "get over it" and "get out of town" to me

Just sayin

[Anonymous]

Lets see if we can find anywhere he says get over it

Perhaps you should seek a therapist to deal with this. Anger and rage at age 52 for things that happened to you 40 or so  years ago doesn't work and maybe a professional can help you deal with it.

not here he says seek for your rage, not get over it.

You are slinging anger at people that aren't listening and/or don't care about  what you say because your message is juvenile and silly and downright counterproductive. Your communication is totally ineffective.

Not here he is saying your anger isn't even being heard because of the way he is talking at other people not to them

Your obession with Libby is unhealthy.  The things she "did" happened to her as well.  She was a child when she was put in the seed.  Do you know how she feels about her involvement with the seed  today?  Of course not.  But you choose to put people's names and address's on a website and assume that these people haven't changed at all in the last 40 years.  

not here he is telling her obsessing over libby is unhealthy and that assuming libby is still pro seed is flawed thinking.

 All you have managed to do here is make this forum unusable for everyone but yourself.   Maybe purging online in this forum  is working for you ( I doubt it, it seems the anger is picking up, not going away) , but for everyone else you are making a mess and ruining this forum.  

not here he is saying his behavior is impacting the usefullness of the forum and his anger seems to be worse not better

A forum BTW that has helped hundreds of people come to terms with The Seed and how it affected their lives. At this point, anyone now who logs on looking for answers is proabably going to think anti-program people are all angry children that shouldn't be listened to, and they will be scared to participate because they won't want some nut looking up their personal information and posting it on a website.

not here he is saying the forum used to help people now it is counterproductive due to the personal attacks.

You should log off the computer and go away.  Your participation is hurting you.

It seems to me he is suggesting she take a break because the anger and rage on the forum is not helping her deal with it but making it worse.  Never does he say get over it or even imply she should

This sounds very much like a "get over it" and "get out of town" to me

You learned well at the seed how to twist what people say and then try to use it against them someone was right you are worse than art barker ever was.

[Anonymous]

I get a kick out of people that say things like.  "You learned how to twist that around at the Seed" ect.  Yeah right you spend 6mo to a year at the Seed and everything that happens in your life afterwards is do to the Seed.  The Seed founders take credit for everything good & the Seed haters blame everything that happens bad on it as well.   I have a hemorid - i think its from sitting on hard chairs back on my 10 to 10 at the Seed.   I'm sueing due to discomfort.  

I must admit I still like PB &J's to this day....

[Anonymous]

Don't tell me you still like swimmers?  You know, the pb&J sandwhiches that got wet in the bottom of the ice chest but you ate anyway because you were almost starving to death and knew you wouldn't eat again until dinner, which was probably another wet pb&J? So you wolfed it down and tried to kill the flavor with a small styrofoam cup of cool-aide and then smoked a couple of malboro reds to help you forget about it, forever scarring your 14 year old lungs. You knew that in 1/2 hour you could try to convince junior staff to let you go pee if you made a face like you were about to urinate in your pants, and then you could wolf down some water from the fountain after you logged your bathroom business into the bathroom monitors "piss or shit" list. Maybe you could even go into the stall and if an older kid didn't watch you, you could catch a minute of two of sane time by yourself.

Yeah, what a great place the seed was.  It taught us all how to convey our ideas by screaming in the face of other people and confronting them.  Funny thing is, the people who claim they hate the place the most are the ones that still act like seedlings the most. Maybe greg's advice was good. if you are so angry you are acting like a fool, log off and take a break.  Life is too short to live like you are still an abused child in an abusive rehab.

[Anonymous]

Swimmers...funny ----no I like them on Toast only...?...maybe thats why?hmmm???

When were you at the Seed 666? & what location???

[Anonymous]

You are so right about yelling at someone in their face.  But before that I would not of said anything and took anything.  I must admit I went overboard the other way until balancing that out (what a lie that just was) I still work on balancing out that stuff.