Author Topic: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org  (Read 76417 times)

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Offline Whooter

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #375 on: October 19, 2009, 03:25:49 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
No, the lawsuit specifically goes after Aspen for NOT providing treatment. Aspens DEFENSE was that they do not provide treatment and never agreed to do so. That's the "larger picture."
If you want your kid to see a licensed therapist you need to pay for it.  Nothing is free.  The parents dropped the ball and never signed up for treatment.

Quote
Show a long-term outcome study that shows these quacks to be helpful.

I asked first.  Show me a study that indicates the programs to be in effective
Quote
That's your burden. You're the seller.

Actually, I believe you were to sell the readers on the idea that the programs are ineffective.  So we would like to see the study.  Dont give us a survey either.  We need a long term peer reviewed published study that is done independently by someone who has never been in the field.

Quote
So, if money's not an issue, just shoot us straight. How much savings is worth letting you and STICC destroy our children? Put a number on it.

I dont think anyone could put a monetary amount on a child, shame on you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #376 on: October 19, 2009, 04:33:56 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Using Mikey's obit as a marketing tool for STICC:

Quote
REUBEN, Michael Joshua Age 22, of Sudbury, MA. Beloved son of John D. Reuben. Brother of Max H. Reuben. Musician, artist and sales executive. We will miss our child and the young man he became. Addiction was the illness that took him, but never the essence of who he was. Also survived by his loving grandmother, and numerous dear aunts, uncles, cousins and friends, including the Abreu and Reuben/Glanzman families of Somerville and the Frias family of Hudson. Donations may be made in his memory to: Saving Teens in Crisis Collaborative, a non-profit organization founded by John Reuben to assist troubled teens and their families struggling with substance abuse and other emotional issues. http://www.savingteens.org <http://www.savingteens.org/> P.O. Box 441363, West Somerville, MA 02144

John ran several paid obit's accross the country, each one used as a donation portal for the TTI.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #377 on: October 19, 2009, 04:46:28 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"


I asked first.  Show me a study that indicates the programs to be in effective



Bullshit!!!!  Listen carefully as you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension.  THE BURDEN OF PROOF FALLS UPON THOSE CLAIMING SUCCESS.  Drug companies have to prove their drugs' effectiveness.  They don't toss out a product and say "prove it doesn't work".  It's not the burden of the consumer, or anyone else to prove a negative.  You're claiming you have a program that "works" and is safe.  Prove it.

You guys made the claim, now back it up.  A "study" done by an employee of AEG does not scientific data make.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #378 on: October 19, 2009, 05:46:14 PM »
Quote from: "BS detector"
Quote from: "Guest"


I asked first.  Show me a study that indicates the programs to be in effective



Bullshit!!!!  Listen carefully as you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension.  THE BURDEN OF PROOF FALLS UPON THOSE CLAIMING SUCCESS.  Drug companies have to prove their drugs' effectiveness.  They don't toss out a product and say "prove it doesn't work".  It's not the burden of the consumer, or anyone else to prove a negative.  You're claiming you have a program that "works" and is safe.  Prove it.

You guys made the claim, now back it up.  A "study" done by an employee of AEG does not scientific data make.

wow!! you seem pissed that I exposed the fact that you have no facts to back up your claim that programs are ineffective.  Thanks for making my point! The burden of proof is on those that make the claims.  If you were quiet you would not have to provide anything, but you made the claim (no one else did).  If you feel they are ineffective then you need to back it up.  You can just say that aspirin doesn’t work or causes people to speak Spanish uncontrollably.  You need to base that on some sort of study.

Otherwise we need to rely on the studies on the table which state that the programs are extremely effective.  Let me know when you come up with something tangible by and independent source.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Troll Control

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #379 on: October 19, 2009, 08:08:09 PM »
Lols.  The "BS Detector" has Whooter in a frenzy of illogic.  Allegedly, this retard (TheWho) has a BA in philosophy, but now I think it may be a "BS" not a "BA".  

It's so funny to watch Whooter tell everyone that the world is upside-down and backwards.  I got to hand it to you, Whooter, they rarely come as dumb or as persistent as you.  You're in the 99th percentile of "stupid and dogged".  Congrats.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #380 on: October 20, 2009, 08:55:45 AM »
So by your silence I take it that you cannot provide a study to back up your claims.  So we can establish as a minimum that programs are “not” ineffective (We can tag this as worse case scenario).  So looking at the studies we do have available, and on the table, we can conclude that programs are highly effective.

I think one of the core issues surrounding this disagreement is the instances of children being abused in these facilities which is always a present risk where children are concerned whether we are talking about daycare, babysitting or local public institutions of learning. Although we have read about occurrences of abuse they are almost always isolated cases, in line with what we see in other institutions and nothing points to a systemic problem with this particular industry.

So all in all we can conclude that the industry provides what they market to the public.......  a safe environment for the children to grow, learn and get back on track in.  There has been no evidence to the contrary and heavily loaded on the end of success.

I hope this helps to clear up any misconception on my part.
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Offline Troll Control

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #381 on: October 20, 2009, 10:26:36 AM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Lols.  The "BS Detector" has Whooter in a frenzy of illogic.  Allegedly, this retard (TheWho) has a BA in philosophy, but now I think it may be a "BS" not a "BA".  

It's so funny to watch Whooter tell everyone that the world is upside-down and backwards.  I got to hand it to you, Whooter, they rarely come as dumb or as persistent as you.  You're in the 99th percentile of "stupid and dogged".  Congrats.

You got that right.  I don't believe he got a philosophy degree.  Nobody who even took PHI101 would make an argument that says someone is required to prove a negative.  It's against all rules of logic.  

Programs claim to help kids, but not one shred of empirical or clinical evidence supports that claim, ergo no studies exist that show veracity of the claim.  

I know Reuben is a business school dropout (never got his degree, quitter), but I think he's lying about having a philosophy degree, because his argument is so abjectly stupid.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #382 on: October 20, 2009, 10:32:50 AM »
Quote from: "Guest"
So by your silence I take it that you cannot provide a study to back up your claims.  So we can establish as a minimum that programs are “not” ineffective (We can tag this as worse case scenario).  So looking at the studies we do have available, and on the table, we can conclude that programs are highly effective.

I think one of the core issues surrounding this disagreement is the instances of children being abused in these facilities which is always a present risk where children are concerned whether we are talking about daycare, babysitting or local public institutions of learning. Although we have read about occurrences of abuse they are almost always isolated cases, in line with what we see in other institutions and nothing points to a systemic problem with this particular industry.

So all in all we can conclude that the industry provides what they market to the public.......  a safe environment for the children to grow, learn and get back on track in.  There has been no evidence to the contrary and heavily loaded on the end of success.

I hope this helps to clear up any misconception on my part.

I have run across the same thing here myself.  There are posters who talk alot about programs being ineffective but I have never seen one produce any evidence.  Not even one study since I have been reading here.
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Offline Anonymous

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Surgeon General On Teen RTC's.
« Reply #383 on: October 20, 2009, 11:11:21 AM »
Quote from: "Jim Baylor"
I have run across the same thing here myself.  There are posters who talk alot about programs being ineffective but I have never seen one produce any evidence.  Not even one study since I have been reading here.

Psst...hey Jimmy lad...here ya go.  The Surgeon General disagrees with you and John Reuben about uncontrolled studies, by the way.  Discuss at length, ye members or the Aspen/STICC goon squad.



Quote from: "Surgeon General"
Concerns about residential care primarily relate to criteria for admission; inconsistency of community-based treatment established in the 1980s; the costliness of such services (Friedman & Street, 1985); the risks of treatment, including failure to learn behavior needed in the community; the possibility of trauma associated with the separation from the family; difficulty reentering the family or even abandonment by the family; victimization by RTC staff; and learning of antisocial or bizarre behavior from intensive exposure to other disturbed children (Barker, 1998). These concerns are discussed below.




http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/sur ... ential.htm

Treatment Interventions

Residential Treatment Centers

Residential treatment centers are the second most restrictive form of care (next to inpatient hospitalization) for children with severe mental disorders. Although used by a relatively small percentage (8 percent) of treated children, nearly one-fourth of the national outlay on child mental health is spent on care in these settings (Burns et al., 1998). However, there is only weak evidence for their effectiveness.

A residential treatment center (RTC) is a licensed 24-hour facility (although not licensed as a hospital), which offers mental health treatment. The types of treatment vary widely; the major categories are psychoanalytic, psychoeducational, behavioral management, group therapies, medication management, and peer-cultural. Settings range from structured ones, resembling psychiatric hospitals, to those that are more like group homes or halfway houses. While formerly for long-term treatment (e.g., a year or more), RTCs under managed care are now serving more seriously disturbed youth for as briefly as 1 month for intensive evaluation and stabilization.

Concerns about residential care primarily relate to criteria for admission; inconsistency of community-based treatment established in the 1980s; the costliness of such services (Friedman & Street, 1985); the risks of treatment, including failure to learn behavior needed in the community; the possibility of trauma associated with the separation from the family; difficulty reentering the family or even abandonment by the family; victimization by RTC staff; and learning of antisocial or bizarre behavior from intensive exposure to other disturbed children (Barker, 1998). These concerns are discussed below.

In the past, admission to an RTC has been justified on the basis of community protection, child protection, and benefits of residential treatment per se (Barker, 1982). However, none of these justifications have stood up to research scrutiny. In particular, youth who display seriously violent and aggressive behavior do not appear to improve in such settings, according to limited evidence (Joshi & Rosenberg, 1997). One possible reason is that association with delinquent or deviant peers is a major risk factor for later behavior problems (Loeber & Farrington, 1998). Moreover, community interventions that target change in peer associations have been found to be highly effective at breaking contact with violent peers and reducing aggressive behaviors (Henggeler et al., 1998). Although removal from the community for a time may be necessary for some, there is evidence that highly targeted behavioral interventions provided on an outpatient basis can ameliorate such behaviors (Brestan & Eyberg, 1998). For children in the second category (i.e., those needing protection from themselves because of suicide attempts, severe substance use, abuse, or persistent running away), it is possible that a brief hospitalization for an acute crisis or intensive community-based services may be more appropriate than an RTC. An intensive long-term program such as an RTC with a high staff to child ratio may be of benefit to some children, especially when sufficient supportive services are not available in their communities. In short, there is a compelling need to clarify criteria for admission to RTCs (Wells, 1991). Previous criteria have been replaced and strengthened (i.e., with an emphasis on resources needed after discharge) by the National Association of Psychiatric Treatment Centers for Children (1990).

The evidence for outcomes of residential treatment comes from research published largely in the 1970s and 1980s and, with three exceptions, consists of uncontrolled studies (see Curry, 1991).

Of the three controlled studies of RTCs, the first evaluated a program called Project Re-Education (Re-Ed). Project Re-Ed, a model of residential treatment developed in the 1960s, focuses on training teacher-counselors, who are backed up by consultant mental health specialists. Project Re-Ed schools are located within communities, facilitating therapeutic work with the family and allowing the child to go home on weekends. Camping also is an important component of the program, inspired by the Outward Bound Schools in England. The first published study of Project Re-Ed compared outcomes for adolescent males in Project Re-Ed with untreated disturbed adolescents and with nondisturbed adolescents. Treated adolescents improved in self-esteem, control of impulsiveness, and internal control compared with untreated adolescents, according to ratings by Project Re-Ed staff and by families (Weinstein, 1974). A 1988 followup study of Project Re-Ed found that when adjustment outcomes were maintained at 6 months after discharge from Project Re-Ed, those outcomes were predicted more by community factors at admission (e.g., condition of the family and school, supportiveness of the local community) than by client factors (e.g., diagnosis, school achievement, age, IQ). This suggested that interventions in the child’s community might be as effective as placement in the treatment setting (Lewis, 1988).

The only other controlled study compared an RTC with therapeutic foster care through the Parent Therapist Program. Both client groups shared comparable backgrounds and made similar progress in their respective treatment program. However, the residential treatment cost twice as much as therapeutic foster care (Rubenstein et al., 1978).

Despite strong caveats about the quality, sophistication, and import of uncontrolled studies, several consistent findings have emerged. For most children (60 to 80 percent), gains are reported in areas such as clinical status, academic skills, and peer relationships. Whether gains are sustained following treatment appears to depend on the supportiveness of the child’s post-discharge environment (Wells, 1991). Several studies of single institutions report maintenance of benefits from 1 to 5 years later (Blackman et al., 1991; Joshi & Rosenberg, 1997). In contrast, a large longitudinal six-state study of children in publicly funded RTCs found at the 7-year followup that 75 percent of youth treated at an RTC had been either readmitted to a mental health facility (about 45 percent) or incarcerated in a correctional setting (about 30 percent) (Greenbaum et al., 1998).

In summary, youth who are placed in RTCs clearly constitute a difficult population to treat effectively. The outcomes of not providing residential care are unknown. Transferring gains from a residential setting back into the community may be difficult without clear coordination between RTC staff and community services, particularly schools, medical care, or community clinics. Typically, this type of coordination or aftercare service is not available upon discharge. The research on RTCs is not very enlightening about the potential to substitute RTC care for other levels of care, as this requires comparisons with other interventions. Given the limitations of current research, it is premature to endorse the effectiveness of residential treatment for adolescents. Moreover, research is needed to identify those groups of children and adolescents for whom the benefits of residential care outweigh the potential risks.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #384 on: October 20, 2009, 12:55:40 PM »
Interesting that they were never able to identify which program they based their studies on....Hmmmm.  Anyway lets take a closer look:

The attorney General admits that these results are old and there isn’t any data on Therapeutic Boarding schools:
Quote
The evidence for outcomes of residential treatment comes from research published largely in the 1970s and 1980s
So published in the 1970's means the data came from the 1950's and 1960's if in fact they were long term studies as stated.

Although even in the 50's and 60’s:
Quote
An intensive long-term program such as an RTC with a high staff to child ratio may be of benefit to some children, especially when sufficient supportive services are not available in their communities

The study goes on to say:
Quote
Despite strong caveats about the quality, sophistication, and import of uncontrolled studies, several consistent findings have emerged. For most children (60 to 80 percent), gains are reported in areas such as clinical status, academic skills, and peer relationships.

So we can see the gains over the last 50/60 years (since the study) and this number is probably now closer to 98%.
……
Quote
Moreover, research is needed to identify those groups of children and adolescents for whom the benefits of residential care outweigh the potential risks

  Based on the success we are see today it seems they are better able to identify and target those groups of children who benefit from individual programs.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #385 on: October 20, 2009, 01:15:46 PM »
That's your take.  The Surgeon General doesn't share your enthusiasm for program's chance of success.  Sorry, I share the skepticism  of the Surgeon General about the efficacy of programs.  Unless you have a financial stake in programs you can only view the SG's report as a warning.

Glad they pointed out the problem with willy nilly admissions, John Reuben's son Michael is a case in point.  Michael obviously had severe mental health issues and his father placed him in Aspen programs which offer no mental health treatment, as we all know.  Had Michael gotten appropriate treatment for his mental issues instead of detention he might be alive and well.  There is a strong argument to be made that John D. Reuben is a terrible parent for not doing his homework, but Aspen should have referred Reuben to more suitable treatment.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #386 on: October 20, 2009, 01:32:43 PM »
SG says:
Quote
Residential treatment centers are the second most restrictive form of care (next to inpatient hospitalization) for children with severe mental disorders.

Almost missed this.  It is obvious that this report didnt include Therapeutic boarding Schools (TBS) because they didnt exist when the studies were done.  I think if we dont agree on much we agree that the kids in programs are not severely mentally ill. (At least not before they were placed, Ha,Ha,Ha) In fact most fornits posters beleive the kids to be a perfectly normal cross section of children.

So that sort of blows that whole theory out of the water as far as the report relating to present programs.

Hooter, you can thank me later, you were sleeping on that one.  You like my Ha,Ha,Ha?
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #387 on: October 20, 2009, 01:45:26 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
SG says:
Quote
Residential treatment centers are the second most restrictive form of care (next to inpatient hospitalization) for children with severe mental disorders.

Almost missed this.  It is obvious that this report didnt include Therapeutic boarding Schools (TBS) because they didnt exist when the studies were done.  I think if we dont agree on much we agree that the kids in programs are not severely mentally ill. (At least not before they were placed, Ha,Ha,Ha) In fact most fornits posters beleive the kids to be a perfectly normal cross section of children.

So that sort of blows that whole theory out of the water as far as the report relating to present programs.

Hooter, you can thank me later, you were sleeping on that one.  You like my Ha,Ha,Ha?


No, you miss the point.  The fraudulent misrepresentation used by programs leads parents to believe the child is getting mental health care.  Otherwise they could not write a boarding school off on their taxes, could they?  Aspen misled parents until they were forced in litigation to define the nature of their programs.  Once clarified, Aspen was revealed as nothing but detention centers with high mortality rates.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #388 on: October 20, 2009, 01:54:15 PM »
Glad they pointed out the problem with willy nilly admissions, John Reuben's son Michael is a case in point.  Michael obviously had severe mental health issues and his father placed him in Aspen programs which offer no mental health treatment, as we all know.  Had Michael gotten appropriate treatment for his mental issues instead of detention he might be alive and well.  There is a strong argument to be made that John D. Reuben is a terrible parent for not doing his homework, but Aspen should have referred Reuben to more suitable treatment.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: John D. Reuben and SavingTeens.org
« Reply #389 on: October 20, 2009, 01:57:33 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "Guest"
SG says:
Quote
Residential treatment centers are the second most restrictive form of care (next to inpatient hospitalization) for children with severe mental disorders.

Almost missed this.  It is obvious that this report didnt include Therapeutic boarding Schools (TBS) because they didnt exist when the studies were done.  I think if we dont agree on much we agree that the kids in programs are not severely mentally ill. (At least not before they were placed, Ha,Ha,Ha) In fact most fornits posters beleive the kids to be a perfectly normal cross section of children.

So that sort of blows that whole theory out of the water as far as the report relating to present programs.

Hooter, you can thank me later, you were sleeping on that one.  You like my Ha,Ha,Ha?


No, you miss the point.  The fraudulent misrepresentation used by programs leads parents to believe the child is getting mental health care.  Otherwise they could not write a boarding school off on their taxes, could they?  Aspen misled parents until they were forced in litigation to define the nature of their programs.  Once clarified, Aspen was revealed as nothing but detention centers with high mortality rates.

So we agree that the report references kids who are severely mentally ill and that the kids in programs are merely a normal cross section of kids.  So the report doesnt apply in this case regardless of the tax deductions people are taking or poor marketing practices.  Program  kids dont fit within the boundary conditions defined by the Surgeon General.  So the report doesnt apply to TBS's.

Note: Tax deductions, by the way are handled by another branch (IRS I believe)
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