If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP

[wdtony]

Well, I believe it is all about money and power so if you can convince them that they will make more money using informed consent, voluntary treatment, they might go for it. But I don't think they have hearts.

[Paul St. John]

Hi.. I would like tt participate in the thread, but it is hard to know what to say when you do not know who you are addressing, and what the purpose of the whole thing is.



Paul

[Inculcated]

Hi.. I would like to participate in the thread, but it is hard to know what to say when you do not know who you are addressing, and what the purpose of the whole thing is.
Paul

I'm not sure if you are asking what NATSAP is? Or the audience /members of the conference?  Maybe this will help. Otherwise, just disregard.
http://www.natsap.org/conference.asp

[Anonymous]

http://www.natsap.org/overview.asp

Overview
   
     
The National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs (NATSAP) was created in January of 1999 to serve as a national resource for programs and professionals assisting young people beleaguered by emotional and behavioral difficulties. The Association is governed by an elected, volunteer Board of Directors comprised of representatives from the NATSAP membership.

Membership In NATSAP
Membership in NATSAP is voluntary and is renewed annually. Our members include therapeutic schools, residential treatment programs, wilderness programs, outdoor therapeutic programs, young adult programs and home-based residential programs.

NATSAP requires the members of our organization to be licensed by the appropriate state agency authorized to set and oversee standards of therapeutic and/or behavioral healthcare for youth and adolescents or accredited by a nationally recognized behavioral health accreditation agency and to have therapeutic services with oversight by a qualified clinician.

NATSAP's Role In Placement
NATSAP members are independently operated and owned; therefore, NATSAP does not provide placement services.

Each young person has his or her own specific needs that must be determined in detail before placement in any program is appropriate. Since NATSAP has no means of determining the needs of young people whose counselors or families may be using the NATSAP directory and information on members, NATSAP does not recommend specific programs.

Information About Our Members
NATSAP publishes a directory annually to inform professionals, programs, and families about the many residential placement alternatives available to help struggling young people.

Listed alphabetically, the schools and programs in the Program Directory are diverse. The directory's listings offer a wide range of programmatic types, lengths of stay, and services to meet the needs of a variety of troubled young people.

Matching the services of a particular school or program to the specific needs of a young person is arguably the most important decision that will ever be made on behalf of that young person. The NATSAP directory is not intended by itself to supply enough information to make a placement. NATSAP encourages programs, professionals, and families to have appropriate academic and psychological testing conducted and to use multiple informational resources before suggesting or pursuing a placement for any young person in any program.

Professionals and parents seeking information on placement for a young person experiencing difficulties have access to the NATSAP Directory on this website. Searching the directory will return each relevant program's basic information, including contact sources.

Short Version
NATSAP = gimmick

[Anonymous]

What is the point of speaking to them? Do you really think they'd care what was done to you or what you have to say? I don't think so. I think they'll say that while YOU may not have responded well to their therapies 1,000s have, they'll say that what you hear on the net are exaggerations, and while there are isolated cases of abuse, they are rare. What they always say. These peoples' aims are money and power (over the individual) nothing else. They don't care.

[Oz girl]

I would go. Why not?
I would say this ;

America is a modern western democracy that believes in the rule of law and that all citizens have a right to due process.  Thus by definition incarceration of any citizens particularly those who are underage, without trial or due process should have absolutely no place. It is bad enough that this industry is legally allowed to exist but the fact that it is large enough to have it’s own trade association is frightening.

For those of you who claim that you run a humane school or programme I congratulate you and ask the following questions. Do your children have free access to a phone line from their first day there? Can they send and receive mail without inspection from whoever they want from day one? Do they arrive at your facility having made it clear that they wish to attend? Are they somewhat aware of what an average day consists of before arriving? If you have answered yes to this question I would assume that they were not send to a wilderness program first and forced to choose between sleeping in the woods or attending your facility. Do your students have an option to go home for major holidays? Are those on medication consulted and given input into the program of medication they are on? If you are a school do your students get the option of playing team sports against other schools? Do they leave the school for field trips regularly? If they are over fifteen may they leave the school in small groups on weekends for at least a few hours at a time? Are students who fulfil the legal age requirement allowed a part time job for a few hours a week if they desire? If so do they get to keep all of the financial proceeds? May relatives come and visit and take them on outings during non school or therapy hours? May they choose to opt out of any therapeutic sessions that they feel are not beneficial to them? May they opt out of any religious ceremonies or bible readings without fear of penalty? Does your school refrain from corporal punishment? Does it refuse to restrain anyone or make them exercise as punishment?

If you have answered no to any of these questions you should take a long look at why. Because what you are running is a private jail. It may be physically nice to look at. But it is still a jail. You have no moral right to do this and with adults you have no legal right. While the state can try and minimise the harm you are doing by enacting laws that prosecute the most notorious abuses that have occurred within this industry, it seems it can’t convince the community that this practice is wrong. But it is. And anyone who makes their living in this way should be ashamed. So I urge you to stop. Stop preying upon worried parents, stop locking up their kids.

[Paul St. John]

Bob and Inculcated, Thanks.

What I really wanted to know is who would be there and what the whole thing is about, but the people who have this info and started this thread apparently do not want to answer. Although it would be very tempting, it probably would not be worth it.


All the same, from what I have seen of what this stuff is about, I think I may lean towards agreeing with other posters
In fact, there is probably a better chance of them rubbing off on you, then you rubbing off on them.. That s just my point of veiw anyway.  Thye base their careers on their point of veiw.   I could be wrong, but I would say that the more friendly they are to you, the more cause for concern.  You have to watch yourself that YOU do not start to slip.  

I do think it is a very cool thing that Fornits was invited, though.  It shows that they are getting noticed, and that the opposition, so to speak, feels their impact.

Congrats.
Paul

[Inculcated]

Well, there is good reason in the experiences of those gathered here to be skeptical.
I hope not to such a degree as pragmatism blurs into pessimism.
I think of the ripple effect of one person being reached by being reached out to and of what they in turn may share with others or spare a child from.
That said, my intuition would advise a healthy dose of paranoia. That, (should they choose to accept NATSAP’S invitation) Psy and Antigen would do well to bring security reps. as their plus ones.

[Paul St. John]

I don t think that they will physically hurt them.. I only think that thye will try to sneakily draw them towards compromise.

Paul

[Paul St. John]

and the thing about sneaky is that it does not appear sneaky

[Inculcated]

I don t think that they will physically hurt them.. I only think that thye will try to sneakily draw them towards compromise.Paul

I’m sure NATSAP as an organization poses no physical threat, and that there would be many among them who would want to influence Fornit’s administrators to compromise their respective causes.
That’s nothing to back down from. Such a challenge is an opportunity.

and the thing about sneaky is that it does not appear sneaky

…and the wonderful thing about Tiggers is that Tiggers are wonderful things… Oh, don’t mind me and the free association…I’m tweaking my meds.
 :nods:  
 :rose:

[Paul St. John]

I hear ya.. I know what you are saying, and again, I am not sure that I am right.

My point is this- Do they really care what Fornits has to say.  I doubt it.. unless they know something I don t know, which is why i made my inquiries b4 waisting the time trying to write a post wiuthout knowing what iit is all about and who you are talking to.

So now if they do not really care, why invite them.  Look, there are challenges everywhere!  I can t seem to look iny possible direction, without seeing infintie amounts of challenges, but you have to pick your battles.

I do not know anything about this.  I am going with what little I could gather from this boards.

If it were me.. I don t know...  Maybe I d go... But only if I was ready and prepared.

Anything like this can go either way.  You would have to be dead on focussed, and confident.

You would have to know what you are going say, and have only that in your mind.  You are going to be smiling with and shaking hands with these people prior to going up b4 them and telling them that their whole lives is a joke.

I would probably have to include something like " Many of the people working in these programs may be redeemable, but your programs are not!"  How do you think they would respond to that?  Honestly, I could put a hole in the room, that would probably have these fuckers crying at night.

But that is me.. That is what I think I can do.  Someone going, in my opinion, should have that mindset, before going, because the ripple effect that you speak of works in both directions!


Basically, you have to be like a trojan horse.  They have thought far ahead.  You have to think further ahead.

But again, I am not even completly sure what I am talking about, becuase I do not know who is being addressed and whose interests are involved here.

Paul

[blombrowski]

I would use concrete examples of situations that their members have been involved in.  Psy, you're in an ideal position to speak from your personal experience at Benchmark.  There are examples such as what happened with Mount Bachelor Academy that are well documented.  This is where it would be really helpful to have a lawer, a psychologist, and a psychiatrist speaking with you to put a lie to the fact that what they do is acceptable, either as treatment or under the law.  Have your references ready.

Put them on the spot to defend their practices.  

Ask them what research they have to show the long-term impact of their "treatment".

Referencing the C.S. Lewis quote, there are certainly robber barons in this industry, I suspect that most however are those that torment with the approval of their conscience.  I think you can at least make a dent, at a minimum get a few programs to rethink their practices and make the experience of the youth in their "care" a little less traumatizing.  At this point a good chunk of the industry are third generation disciples of Lifespring and twentieth generation disciples of Boys Town.  They do what they do because they don't know another way, or it affects their bottom line too much to do otherwise.

The previous posters are right, they'll view this as opportunity to convince you of their rightness, their acknowledgement of their previous trangressions, how they're "different" than the abusive programs.  Stick to the facts and your experiences.

[Oz girl]

I don’t see how anyone could convince someone like psy or antigen of the “rightness” of this system. In their shoes I would go as far as to acknowledge that not every school or facility tortures and starves or beats kids, though so many do, but that is not the issue.
The issue is whether or not it is ok to detain a citizen, particularly an underage one without trial for any length of time. It is not. International law says it is not. Every other comparable western democracy in the world says it is not. When he shut gitmo, Obama himself said it is not.
You can have a prison that is like the Bellagio but if those there are there against their will and someone is limiting their access to the outside world, or forcing them through therapeutic processes that they want no part of or drugging them against their will, then it is not OK. This is really a simple concept & I would love to see the looks on the faces of the NATSAP people if someone went to their convention and calmly stated this.

[Paul St. John]

I don’t see how anyone could convince someone like psy or antigen of the “rightness” of this system. In their shoes I would go as far as to acknowledge that not every school or facility tortures and starves or beats kids, though so many do, but that is not the issue.
The issue is whether or not it is ok to detain a citizen, particularly an underage one without trial for any length of time. It is not. International law says it is not. Every other comparable western democracy in the world says it is not. When he shut gitmo, Obama himself said it is not.
You can have a prison that is like the Bellagio but if those there are there against their will and someone is limiting their access to the outside world, or forcing them through therapeutic processes that they want no part of or drugging them against their will, then it is not OK. This is really a simple concept & I would love to see the looks on the faces of the NATSAP people if someone went to their convention and calmly stated this.

I agree with you 100 percent.  I really couldn t agree more.  In fact, almost everyone agrees with you, excpet that there are 2 underlying issues.

The first is children.  Do the rights of a person necessarily belong to children always?  To many they do not.  Daytop never tried to hold adults.  they hold children though.  
And it usually is not the programs holding them, it is something else holding them there- their school, their parents, the law, etc.

As far as the international law thing, there are many similar places in as far as I know, every country, and most of them are worse then the ones here, so this is just another example where people do not see that as applying to this situation.

The other issue, is drug- addicts.  many people think that they are getting what they deserve, and do not care about life anyway.  Of course, you and I know this is false.

That which you said should be stated there, is not new to them, and they will have one million and one responses.

I do not think that they could really change Psy or Antigen's mind either.  I do not know much of Psy, but Antigen would probably die for beliefs IMHO.  

Again, I do not know what they were invited for, but I just don't see that they would invite them, in hopes that they could be proven wrong.  It just does not make any sense to me whatsoever.

Maybe this goes real good.  they are told that they had an impact on many people.  It went so good, they will continue to invite them to other engagemnts.  Is this an accomplishment, or they just moving closer to them...

This is in their house, at their request.  i am just curios of their motive.  Honestly, I do not care what they do.  they are adults, and they can look after themselves.  I was just voicing an opinion and got swept in this dialogue, after deciding not to post anything.

Now, from what I have read, their will be program leaders there.  Is it possible to get something across to some of them perhaps.. Again, I do not know the situation.  Perhaps, this organization agrees with many of Fornits ideas, or is tired of getting a bad rap, and has the same hopes as those , that Fornits-staff can convey an idea to some of these people.  I don t know.

Either way, I think it is good that Fornits caught their attention.  I think that that is a very big deal.

Paul