If You had the chance to speak at NATSAP

[wdtony]

Geeezzz... Personally, I think they are just fishing for expression of what our points of contention are, so that they can articulate refuting arguments. It'll all appear later as a watered-down "Essay" on Struggling Teens with a title like "Troubled anti-program activists weigh in with suggestions." I can't really see any good coming out of it, at least not in the foreseeable future (maybe I'm just real down on everything tonight).

On the other hand, it'll send a bad message if nobody goes, given that an invitation was extended. So... it would be probably be best to go. Btw, who was invited? Ginger? Or fornits personages in general?

I mostly agree with you Ursus. And I like the way you put it. It is unclear as to what the details are, such as who was invited or what the whole plan will be. I can see how it might be "fun" to go and speak out at them but I don't think it would be effective in stopping this abusive industry or saving even one kid. It may hinder efforts to save kids, who knows?

I do disagree with you on one point though. I don't think it would send a bad message if NATSAP's request was denied. I think it would send a message to them that "those Fornits people asked to attend" are intelligent enough not to fall for their trap and that we don't negotiate with terrorists. If anything, NATSAP should be invited to hold a press conference where the alloted times are equal and a fair, unbiased look at the facts can be attained. But they will never agree to that.

I don't know why certain individuals were invited, but we do know that these NATSAP people are NOT to be trusted. Come on people, where is that post-program caution that has amplified our intuition? Sometimes people change and sometimes people can "get along", but NATSAP and the like are not those people. Program directors and those who protect their illegal activities are the exact people who cannot change, but only appear to change. They are mentally ill, sociopaths or have some psychological impairment that prevents them from applying reason. On top of that, they are very intelligent and therefore dangerous. So, no I do not trust them at all.

I do not agree with any illegal activities or violence suggested earlier in this thread. Even if it is a joke or blowing off steam, this is not a tactful way to communicate frustration. I would also encourage people to refrain from any of these activities. This type of action will not help to eliminate abuse in programs and would most probably create a radical image which can only be of benefit to these programs.

If anyone goes, proceed with caution, say very little and have a plan, A, B, C, and D before you go. I agree with what Mr. Lombrowski wrote. Be prepared with professionals that can scientifically support your concerns, if you go. You guys are smart and will know what to do, I am confident of that.

That's all I can think of right now. Good luck in any event!

Goodnight'

[pII]

If you have an opportunity to speak at NATSAP, do it.

The people you need to get to are the edons, more than anything.  They are the ones the parents listen to.

Don't believe you are not having an effect.  There are TBS's who are already changing thier programs to disinclude old synanon stuff and to add only licensed therapists because of your watchdog work.  Places where they don't "accept" everyone and refer students elsewhere if they don't feel they can handle them, where the students are free to leave if they do not want to commit to staying, regardless of whether or not the parents want them to stay.

You want to get to the NATSAP people, because they are the ones the adolescent psychiatrists send the parents to see when it is determined the child needs a placement.  You may not get rid of programs, there is a percieved need for them in this country where parents can be sent to prison for thier children being overwieght or having a beer party at thier house, but you could effect the methods of treatment, which are already changing at the 'better' places, and that might be a valuabe goal, to start with.

Stay with the facts and the research--no emotional appeals.  Psy, in particular, is very clear on the origins of the less effective treatment methods and the discredited nature of a lot of those methods.  

The next group you need to find a way to address is the adolescent psychiatrists, because regardless of what you might think, they really are refering kids to these places, and you need to make it clear that many do not have lisenced therapists on board, though, these days, many more do.

Good luck.  I don't believe you will get rid of TBS's, but I do believe you could have an effect on the treatment methods, and I believe your work already has influenced some programs in a positive way, to include lisenced staff and to get rid of restraint, and at least some of the double-bind, break them down techniques from the past.

[pII]

Oh, and pys--as they move more and more towards regulating these places, I really hope you will involve yourself in this, as a professional.

I know that outsider status can be really appealing, and I really do 'get' that, but I also think involving yourself on the inside, getting legitimate political power, which obviously, you have already gotten a certain amount of respect, and you two ought to consider getting involved politically from the inside to effect real change in this industry.  Children cannot speak for themselves, politically.  Parents, by the time they are being refered to these places by psychiatrists are absolutely desperate and therefore really cannot speak for themselves.  Somebody who is calm, educated and dispassionate could really have an incredible effect on the nature of these places and on what is being offered, as well.

I know you probably want to believe you can eliminate the TBS's completely, but I don't believe it can be done.  There is a long tradition of super-successful leaders emerging from military schools (where they were sent for being discipline problems as kids).  I think this is simply the "military school" of the times, and people like you could really change things.

[psy]

Oh, and pys--as they move more and more towards regulating these places, I really hope you will involve yourself in this, as a professional.

I don't support regulation as I think it'll provide a false sense of security and legitimizes forced treatment (among other reasons).  What I support is the absolute abolition of forced treatment (meaning fully informed consent) wherever it is and regardless of age.

Think about it.  In most states, minors can refuse medical treatment without consent.  The only reason why programs are permitted to do this is because they like to pass themselves off  as "boarding schools" or their "therapy" as "education".  They want to have the best of both worlds and skate around the law.

This isn't even touching on the fact that, regardless of ethics, forced treatment just plain does not work in the long term.  These program (often unwittingly, since they've forgotten where they learned their methods) practice thought reform, not therapy, which produces dramatic short term results, but in the long term, often leave significant permanent scarring.  Let's not forget that the results of these "treatments" don't only affect minors.  They last long into adulthood as these kids grow up.

[pII]

I have no interest, at all, in arguing for or against these places.  I am aware that incredible damage has been done here, and nobody needs to read this forum for more than about five minutes to realize a lot of these poster's are adults and that they are still in pain over what happened to them at these "schools."  That's not why I posted.

I posted simply because I can see that you are already making a difference, even if it is not the way you want to make a difference, and just to encourage you to continue.  (Though I really doubt you need my encouragement for that, anyway.)  Also, I know that powerful people, who effect real change, frequently work both inside and outside of systems.  I 'get' your perspective, however, and I do believe that forced treatment assists noone.

I think, however, you are sometimes misguided and believe it is only edcons who are referring to these places and it is not. Pychiatrists, well-respected pyschiatrists, refer to them, as well.  Granted this is to "schools" where kids can leave and places where they are not "held," but some of these places where kids do get kicked out pretty regularly, still use at least some of the methods you abhor (rightfully so), and these were the institutions I was thinking you might infuence and already have begun to influence.

Whether or not these places will all ultimately shut down is up for debate, though very improbable, honestly, however HOW they operate and how they treat, seems to be something they are beginning to reflect on, to at least some extent, and partially because of the work you have done, collectively, to get this in front of congress and the senate and state agencies, as well.

 good luck with your mission.  I'm sure if anyone can make that happen, it would be you guys.

[Anonymous]

I think, however, you are sometimes misguided and believe it is only edcons who are referring to these places and it is not. Pychiatrists, well-respected pyschiatrists, refer to them, as well.  Granted this is to "schools" where kids can leave and places where they are not "held," but some of these places where kids do get kicked out pretty regularly, still use at least some of the methods you abhor (rightfully so), and these were the institutions I was thinking you might infuence and already have begun to influence.

Calo parent?  I sense something slithery...

Psychiatrists also refer to lock down "schools."  We do not influence these groups to change their methods; we make it more difficult for them to get away with their methods, because our numbers make it impossible for them to effectively deny their existence, which leads to successful lawsuits which, every 30 years or so, leads to a closing. Then the staff-cult disciples pick up and start a new gulag in which they claim everything is different and do the whole thing over again.

[psy]

I think, however, you are sometimes misguided and believe it is only edcons who are referring to these places and it is not. Pychiatrists, well-respected pyschiatrists, refer to them, as well.

It depends on what you mean by "well-respected" (Fr. Phil, for example, is not actually a licensed shrink), but yes, I do realize this.  Mostly, it's out of ignorance.  I agree that they need to be better educated.  School guidance counselors would be another good target for education.

[Ursus]

Think about it.  In most states, minors can refuse medical treatment without consent.  The only reason why programs are permitted to do this is because they like to pass themselves off  as "boarding schools" or their "therapy" as "education".  They want to have the best of both worlds and skate around the law.

This isn't even touching on the fact that, regardless of ethics, forced treatment just plain does not work in the long term.  These program (often unwittingly, since they've forgotten where they learned their methods) practice thought reform, not therapy, which produces dramatic short term results, but in the long term, often leave significant permanent scarring.  Let's not forget that the results of these "treatments" don't only affect minors.  They last long into adulthood as these kids grow up.

Granted this is to "schools" where kids can leave and places where they are not "held," but some of these places where kids do get kicked out pretty regularly, still use at least some of the methods you abhor (rightfully so), and these were the institutions I was thinking you might infuence and already have begun to influence.

Whether or not these places will all ultimately shut down is up for debate, though very improbable, honestly, however HOW they operate and how they treat, seems to be something they are beginning to reflect on, to at least some extent, and partially because of the work you have done, collectively, to get this in front of congress and the senate and state agencies, as well.

The difference between forced treatment, lack of informed consent, and thought reform may be merely academic, if you happen to be a kid that was severely damaged by one of these programs or "schools." In fact, sometimes the more subtle way of doing such business results in greater damage than a more overtly abusive program could effect. I'll tell you flat out that had I gone to a WWASPS or similar type of program, I would assuredly have been far less messed up -- and still am, to this very day -- than I was and am as a result of where I ended up going, which was Hyde "School."

[pII]

Guest--

I'm not a "calo" parent.

I'm a mental health professional.  I do not refer to these "schools" nor do I refer to edcons who refer to these "schools."  "First do no harm."

But, the truth is that some do, and not the unlicensed or un-credible, either.  There are some pretty well-respected psychiatrists who recommend placements at these places, out of ignorance, as psy pointed out.  

The first time I ran across these places I was actually hoping to find a placement for a couple of kids who imo were not mentally ill, but they were acting up in self-destructive ways.  The parents were not abusive or even neglectful, just ill-equiped to handle some very bright, very sensitive kids who were not fitting in very well at the local school or in the local community.  I knew all they needed was some time to grow up and a little bit of homework supervision.  A colleague recommended a TBS.  I can say that I when I looked into what these places were doing, I thought it would be damaging and recommended some normal boarding schools for them, the kind with a telephone in the room and christmas and spring and summer breaks.  It turned out just fine.

That was when I first encountered this industry.  Since then, though, I have really become aware than my colleagues do refer.  And I'm really not talking about mail order psy D's here, either, I'm talking full on, highly ranked medical school graduates.  This is the only reason I feel speaking to these kinds of groups would be useful.

As a mental health professional I wish they were better regulated and overseen though, mostly just because as the laws become harsher and harsher regarding holding parents legally responsible for adolescent acting out, these places become attractive to people who would never have considered them even twenty years ago.  So, to me, it's very frightening.  I'm glad you will be heard.  I hope you will find a way to be heard even more often by people who make these kinds of choices when it comes to kids.

That's all.

As I said, good luck.  I hope maybe you could do more than a law suit every 30 years.  Maybe now that Congrss and the Senate are looking into it more closely, you can have some better result.

I won't be back.  I have my own work to focus on and I'm not a vested party in this conversation.  I'll keep giving my negative opinion to my colleagues.   You keep giving yours.

[psy]

I won't be back.

See.  That frustrates me to a certain extent.  Sometimes it seems as if half the time an interesting, well educated poster comes on here, it's only for an all too brief period of time.  Regardless... I appreciate your encouragement, input and the good you have done by educating your colleagues.

[psy]

Btw, who was invited? Ginger? Or fornits personages in general?

Ginger and myself.  We have to arrange and fund transportation ourselves, though, so it's not like they're giving us anything in return or in any way compensating us (I just want to make that clear).  If you're willing to come, though, it might be possible to arrange that.  Your knowledge and research on the history of TCs is second to none.  Even if you're not able to attend, I'll definitely be asking for your input.

[psy]

I do disagree with you on one point though. I don't think it would send a bad message if NATSAP's request was denied. I think it would send a message to them that "those Fornits people asked to attend" are intelligent enough not to fall for their trap and that we don't negotiate with terrorists.

Talking to/with is not the same as negotiating.  If information can be shared that can reduce harm to the kids even a little without compromising anybody's values, it's worth doing.

[TheWho]

For whats its worth:  

Well, I will not name names, but I can tell you that top Adolescent and child mental health professionals from the University of Michigan and affiliated colleges support, recommend and openly speak of Therapeutic Boarding Schools as viable solutions to families with children who fall within the “at risk” category.

The University of Michigan is also well respected in the mental health field.  The people who recommend these places are not the back alley rubber stamp doctors that many think.  If you look at the credentials of the directors of programs 20 years ago and then look today you will see that their education level has risen considerably are more respected by their colleagues and have moved towards a more clinical approach in their program modeling.

In order to effect change in this area you need to get the ear of some of these people at the top.

[Anonymous]

I can tell you that top Adolescent and child mental health professionals from the University of Michigan and affiliated colleges support, recommend and openly speak of Therapeutic Boarding Schools as viable solutions to families with children who fall within the “at risk” category.

Bullshit

The people who recommend these places are not the back alley rubber stamp doctors that many think.

Bullshit

If you look at the credentials of the directors of programs 20 years ago and then look today you will see that their education level has risen considerably are more respected by their colleagues and have moved towards a more clinical approach in their program modeling.

Bullshit

In order to effect change in this area you need to get the ear of some of these people at the top.

Bullshit

[TheWho]

Well then, reject the info and keep your hands over your ears, singing La La La as loud as you can and continue down the same path you have been going the past decade.

Hows that been working for you so far?