blog of a program parent

[FemanonFatal2.0]

In my opinion fornits would be so much more effective if the posters were just honest right up front.  Parents would probably stay long and research information they felt was credible.

Honestly that is simply your warped perception and no where even close to the truth. What you may not realize is that it is most of our positions that while the physical and sexual abuse are not common in every WWASP facility, the psychological abuse most definitely is. I would think you would be able to make that connection by now but apparently you haven't been here as long as everyone thinks you have. I know I am honest when I post, I do say that what happened to me does not happen in every program, but that doesn't discredit the fact that it did happen and the people responsible for this are running WWASP programs as we speak. Don't you realize that our actions to speak out may have had a hand in these programs starting to watch their P's and Q's? If your child wasn't tortured like I was don't you think you might owe us some gratitude for standing up to protect them?

No one has ever said that EVERYONE that goes to a program is raped HOWEVER we do stand by the FACT that every child that enters these facilities is incarcerated without due process or any significant admissions process and are subject to methods that can be psychologically damaging. How many times do we need to rephrase that we believe that psychological abuse is still abuse? We aren't exaggerating anything, you are mixing up your facts. The fact is that these programs are cutting corners that are causing these problems to exist and they NEED to fix them. Futhermore their system is based on a draconic, cruel and epically flawed system that never should have been forced upon children, regardless of their past transgressions. You never answered my question about why a program parent wouldn't be in support of us demanding change so that no child is ever abused again. Why is this a threat to you? Do you have some financial interest in WWASP schools? Will that be effected if our government forces them to stop cutting those money saving, child abusing corners? If not, then why all the hostility? Or is it that you truly believe in the "Tough Love" method. No matter how we go about feeding our experiences to the public what is really the bigger fish to fry here?... institutionalized child abuse, fraud and maltreatment or what you people perceive to be exaggeration and sympathy for those rotten little children of yours.

You can cut the bad analogies, seriously the point you made is completely irrelevant. However ironically, the same analogy can be turned around on you. Why is it that you people always assume that every program is good and choose to blindly deny our allegations. Shouldn't there be a middle ground? Just because we aren't here referring to programs like Sue Scheff doesn't mean we really think that every kid in the program is physically assaulted however we do know that it happens enough for us to need to step in and do something about it. I am not personally against ALL programs, however I am against all programs that rely on the "Tough Love" system because from what I experienced it is immoral, dangerous and entirely ineffective.

I can see you like to jump around a lot and skirt the subject at hand, I've heard that's your M.O. but seriously, next time try bringing a better argument to the table.

[RobertBruce]

What I don't understand however, despite loyalty to the program, why parents aren't siding with us more often, for the simple fact that we are trying to use examples of past transgressions to keep these programs in line, and to protect the children. Why would a program parent EVER be threatened by that? Instead you would rather blind yourself to the truth of the past and the possibility abuse in the program now all because you don't want to be considered to be aligned with us?...

I think you may know the answer to this, femanon.  Within my first 10 minutes on fornits I knew I was being conned.  There is a deception within fornits that is felt almost immediately.  Let me give you an example.

News item:  â€œChild is raped by their teacher”.  Now this is a headline.  What typically follows is something like this:

A 14 year old male child came forward today in Oklahoma City to report that he had sex with his teacher at the middle school.  The child was reportedly taken to the teachers home on occasion also.  The teacher, Mrs Harriet Beecher, was placed on administrative leave until further notice.
On Fornits most posters try to spin it like this:

Dont send your kids to public school gulags because the teachers are raping “all” the kids, kidnapping them and raping them in remote locations.

If a reader asks which programs are affected the poster get the response “All the programs and staff do this”.  It would be easy to say that “Tranquility Bay” had reported 2 rapes and has since closed but we never heard of one at Cross creek for example, but there is such a desperate effort to discredit “all” the programs that allegations are overstated to the point where they are no longer believable.

The new reader coming to fornits knows that 10,000 kids were not raped and forced to eat their feces in gulags.  I mean come on, just by using the word Gulag adds a fairy tale feel to the whole story with an ogre in the basement waiting to rape the children.  But the average fornits poster is so rapped up in their hatred of programs that they try to make others believe this and by doing so discredits themselves.  

So now we need to ask ourselves:  â€œIf the poster is being dishonest about information regarding rapes in programs how do we know they are being honest in their personal accounts of what they experienced within the program?”  Where does the deception end and the truth begin?

In my opinion fornits would be so much more effective if the posters were just honest right up front.  Parents would probably stay long and research information they felt was credible.

Clearly this is Cindy. Cindy why not offer specifics for once? Instead of using your vauge examples, post a specific instance of this occuring. It would do wonders for that credibility youre so obessed with.

[TheWho]

No one has ever said that EVERYONE that goes to a program is raped HOWEVER we do stand by the FACT that every child that enters these facilities is incarcerated without due process or any significant admissions process and are subject to methods that can be psychologically damaging.

What is it you refer to as "Due process"?  There should be admissions screening and at least one independent person to sign off on the admission like the childs therapist or school counselor.  This would be a great improvement.  But the problem needs to be addressed whether he/she is incarcerated (as you put it) in the local public school, private school or a program.


 

You never answered my question about why a program parent wouldn't be in support of us demanding change so that no child is ever abused again. Why is this a threat to you?

I don’t see why any parent would not be in favour of improving the programs and making them more safe.  I know I am.

Do you have some financial interest in WWASP schools?

no

Will that be effected if our government forces them to stop cutting those money saving, child abusing corners?

Not sure if regulation would be very effective at all.  I don’t think it would hurt any.

If not, then why all the hostility?

I am not hostile.  I may come across that way because many posters here seem to blame all the childs problems on the program and the parents and seem not to think the child needs to take any responsibility.  You cant solve the problem unless you understand the cause or atleast be open minded enough to discuss it.
 

Or is it that you truly believe in the "Tough Love" method.

I believe in a structured environment for these kids.

No matter how we go about feeding our experiences to the public what is really the bigger fish to fry here?... institutionalized child abuse, fraud and maltreatment or what you people perceive to be exaggeration and sympathy for those rotten little children of yours.

All the above.  We should fight against all of it.

You can cut the bad analogies, seriously the point you made is completely irrelevant.

I strongly disagree.  It makes a valid point.

However ironically, the same analogy can be turned around on you. Why is it that you people always assume that every program is good and choose to blindly deny our allegations.

I haven’t read those post yet.  I believe there are good and bad programs.  We should identify the bad ones,expose them and force them to change or shut down.

Shouldn't there be a middle ground?

Actually, one of the problems is many posters will not attempt to discuss anything outside the extreme edges.  Try to get a discussion on the good and bad programs. Try to get some of the regulars to rate programs from good to bad or bad to worse.  No one here is willing to accept a discussion that involves the thought that there is a good program out there or that kids go thru programs and do extremely well.

Just because we aren't here referring to programs like Sue Scheff doesn't mean we really think that every kid in the program is physically assaulted however we do know that it happens enough for us to need to step in and do something about it. I am not personally against ALL programs, however I am against all programs that rely on the "Tough Love" system because from what I experienced it is immoral, dangerous and entirely ineffective.

At least you seem willing to be open to the fact that programs are helpful to kids.

I can see you like to jump around a lot and skirt the subject at hand, I've heard that's your M.O. but seriously, next time try bringing a better argument to the table.

Sorry, there was a lot that you said and I responded to what I felt passionate about.  I believe my argument is valid.  If you read around the different forums you will see that alot of the discussions are black and white and very little if any middle ground exists to support any level of debate.  Ie, all programs are bad, if a parent says their child benefitted then the child must be brain washed.  If a child is doing good after the program the child is doing it inspite of it, the program gets no credit.  If any problems occurs after the program it is the progams fault.  Poor parenting skills are the cause of the problem etc.
It is extremely rare for any one to ask another survivor “What were you thinking when you dropped out of school and sat around all day smoking weed, did you think your parents were just going to sit back and accept that?”,  â€œWhy didn’t you go to a votech school or attempt to get your GED, you were just asking to get sent away!!”  Nope, never here that.  Its always a the poor decision the parents made, the kids were perfect little angels and victims who did nothing wrong and had the unfortunate bad luck of having uncaring parents.

[Anonymous]

In my opinion fornits would be so much more effective if the posters were just honest right up front.  Parents would probably stay long and research information they felt was credible.

Honestly that is simply your warped perception and no where even close to the truth. What you may not realize is that it is most of our positions that while the physical and sexual abuse are not common in every WWASP facility, the psychological abuse most definitely is.

Physical and sexual abuse is the norm at wwasp. “Strip searches” and holding daily "underwear and bra checks" and other forms of forced public nudity, forcing adolescent captives to “observe” other adolescent captives go to the bathroom is sexual abuse. Holding a human being captive and coercing other detainees to follow them, and expecting them to “restrain” and beat them if they try to escape to obey some order, or alert professional staff who do the same, is assault and battery and physical abuse under a variety of statutes. Then there’s the physical abuse of slavery. From reading about WWASP it’s clear their modus operandi is intense psychological torture and “light” sexual and physical torture enforced with the threat of more intense psychological and sexual torture.

If these things were done to a human being i outside of a wwasp or gulag facility to a human being the aggressor would be facing serious criminal charges. Now that the Feds are finnally getting involved looks like WWASP and various gulags are finally being held accountable criminally.

[FemanonFatal2.0]

Sorry, there was a lot that you said and I responded to what I felt passionate about.  I believe my argument is valid.  If you read around the different forums you will see that alot of the discussions are black and white and very little if any middle ground exists to support any level of debate.  Ie, all programs are bad, if a parent says their child benefitted then the child must be brain washed.  If a child is doing good after the program the child is doing it inspite of it, the program gets no credit.  If any problems occurs after the program it is the progams fault.  Poor parenting skills are the cause of the problem etc. It is extremely rare for any one to ask another survivor “What were you thinking when you dropped out of school and sat around all day smoking weed, did you think your parents were just going to sit back and accept that?”,  â€œWhy didn’t you go to a votech school or attempt to get your GED, you were just asking to get sent away!!”  Nope, never here that.  Its always a the poor decision the parents made, the kids were perfect little angels and victims who did nothing wrong and had the unfortunate bad luck of having uncaring parents.

Honestly I think it comes down to more of a difference in personality then anything. For instance I think I would probably be a much different kind of parent than you are. You might be the kind to structure and control your teens, shelter them perhaps. I just wouldn't be so forceful. I believe in love, not tough love. Just the same, you rationalize sending away your kids because they misbehaved, screwed up even and I would never NEVER do that. I would struggle and go the farthest lengths to get my child through the teenage years no matter how hard it was because that is what being a parent is about. I don't believe there is ANYTHING a child could do that would justify sending them to a "tough love" program. Something that I think most parents don't understand is that punishment is supposed to be used in a way that helps teach kids about real life consequences, but most of you punish out of anger and spite and I just don't believe that banishment, torment and physical assault are effective life lessons. But call a spade a spade, you send your kid to a program as punishment not to "help". If a child genuinely does need help, there are already ways that they can find that help, rehab, mental hospitals, counseling and community centers to name a few. All of which follow state and federal guidelines and do not violate the basic human rights of the patient and none of which are willing to hold your child against their will unless they are court ordered. BTW "due process" means the process of the law, for instance a citizen (regardless of age) cannot be incarcerated without being arrested or court ordered, It is a constitutional right. I'm not surprised you aren't aware that minors have this right as well. They also have the right to seek legal counsel, to be allowed phone calls to family and access to child protective services, all of which are absolutely denied in the program.

The argument about the parents being uncaring comes from a point of view that we could NEVER rationalize sending our kids away, and you for reasons we deem to be sick and abusive, can. Your parenting skills would come to question in this instance because only someone who was not able, or not willing to "parent" their children through times of hardship would consider paying someone else to do it for them. I can understand that a parent in your position wouldn't be exactly receptive to our theories, but considering how you have been pointing the finger at your kids for so long maybe you should sit back and ask yourself what role your "parenting style" may have played in their rebellion. The fault isn't always one sided, actually it rarely is, but too often the parents are too prideful to admit their own faults, and it is the child who ends up suffering all the blame. We never said we, nor other teenagers were perfect, just that they don't deserve to shoulder the blame while their parents play a significant role in the tides turning the way they do.

When it comes to the success or failure of the child and whether that is to the credit or fault of the program... my theory is that it is neither. I think that the program simply throws a wrench in the teens maturation process. Most times the kids that went into the program the youngest and stayed the longest are usually the most immature prior to "getting out", Ive noticed that the program has been known to stunt the emotional growth of the teen, even into adulthood. Did we all learn things at the program?... sure. I think more things they didn't intend to teach, however if a teen decided to "change" in a program, that is simply of their own free will. Maybe being out of their normal environment gave them enough time to think about their lives, but the teachings of the program had nothing to do with how to go about manifesting that change out in the real world. There were so many things in the program that were simply a waste of our time and in all honesty that's exactly what it was in entirety... just wasting our adolescence so that by the time we got back a few years went by and we had become adults that you could kick out of your house as soon as we screwed up again. If you had lived through the program you would know what I mean. If kids came out of there changed (which rarely is that the case) than GREAT but ever think to give the kid credit for maturing a little bit? Just the same if the kid comes home and goes right back to the drugs and drinking and "old habits" that is still their choice and has nothing to do with the program. It could however be evidence that the program has no tangible effect on teens, besides a few months of social shell shock and gratitude to be home. See I don't put that double standard on this issue, I am of the opinion that regardless of if the teen succeeds or fails, the program still operated an ineffective system. The "fault" of the program is only dependent on how much psychological damage was caused, and often that doesn't even come to light until after YEARS of therapy. Going out and partying, that's just the natural process of the young human being and again, has nothing to do with the program besides just making up for lost time. But lets talk for a moment about your side of the fences argument on this one, usually if a kid succeeds after the program, then its said the the program somehow saved their life, and deserves the credit and when the kid goes back to drugs or commits suicide, all of a sudden the program takes no responsibility for the teens personal choices. Now wouldn't you assume it only fair, if they intend to take credit for the success of the teen, shouldn't they take fault for the failure?... and why do you expect anything different from us?? I tend to believe that the kids just pick up where they left off and even if they hadn't gone to the program they would still either mature on their own or screw themselves over and there's nothing anyone could do would stop that.

We all know that 'kids aren't perfect, just like all people aren't perfect but expecting them to be perfect is usually what gets you all into this mess in the first place. You can't seriously draw the line at the fact that your 15 year old smokes weed and skips school, that is honestly the most normal teenage behavior in the book. It's rebellious, dangerous and stupid and calls for some heavy parenting but NOT getting sent away. I'm of the opinion that if a parent feels that its an appropriate decision to send their kid away for minor infractions, their parenting (and logic) should be taken into question. Its just cruel. The programs are rough and its unfair to any kid to have to go through that, but especially when the crime doesn't fit the punishment.

case and point, Katie... check out that girls myspace, I would be surprised if that girl could do half the things most girls her age are capable of. So she gets into bad arguments with her parents, calls her step mom a bitch... don't you think its possible her step mom IS a bitch? Don't you think they hound her on every detail of her life and all the small little things she does wrong and never let her forget it... I bet they do. Otherwise, I doubt a sweet looking girl like that would ever feel so upset as to act out in that way. You talk a lot about the actions of Katie in CCM that, despite her words of sincerity her actions showed her true intentions. Now think about the words of the step mom, basically talking about how she hates Katie and ask yourself what actions this woman must be displaying to Katie to make her so upset... its a clear picture as to why this family had so many issues when Katie first came home, her parents were unwilling to forgive her for the past and treated her harshly, which created tension and then lead to blow outs. Teenagers are expected to be making mistakes, its called learning life lessons, but parents are expected to handle these situations with love, support and constructive consequences, not blame and certainly not abandonment at a program (and for 3 years? ugh!)

I'm tapped out, I hope that gives you a bit of "my side" of the argument.

[Anonymous]

whooter must be whacking off to these replies  :sue:

talk about a waste of time. but hey, its your time to waste. but its not the first time a survivor thought they could out argue thewho and learn the hard way its a complete and utter waste, ask robertbruce.

[Anonymous]

oh, and if you are wondering the point of his troll, its pretty simple. he goes after the the survivor who say spent four years locked up. or maybe, say... went to the worst facility ever. then he tries to get survivor to admit not all programs are as bad as the horrible place they went. survivor reluctantly agrees, who declares victory on his personal war against "black and white" anti program on fornits. this is the same troll judgeroy used over on kev. "i know the place you went was bad, aw, poor you. but listen, the place i endorse is a spa resort compared to that place!" naive survivor: "right on, i wish my parent was as cool as you! I would of LOVED to be sent there instead. "

 
But what's the point of it? "who" knows what motivates someone who will mock sexual abuse victims.
my guess is he is looking for a surrogate daughter to forgive him for doing something he knows was wrong deep down. if someone was oblivious to the implications of their wrongheaded choice to use a program they wouldn't waste their time on fornits. there's some emotional wound driving thewho character that nobody has figured out yet.

[Anonymous]

oh, and if you are wondering the point of his troll, its pretty simple. he goes after the the survivor who say spent four years locked up. or maybe, say... went to the worst facility ever. then he tries to get survivor to admit not all programs are as bad as the horrible place they went. survivor reluctantly agrees, who declares victory on his personal war against "black and white" anti program on fornits. this is the same troll judgeroy used over on kev. "i know the place you went was bad, aw, poor you. but listen, the place i endorse is a spa resort compared to that place!" naive survivor: "right on, i wish my parent was as cool as you! I would of LOVED to be sent there instead. "

 
But what's the point of it? "who" knows what motivates someone who will mock sexual abuse victims.
my guess is he is looking for a surrogate daughter to forgive him for doing something he knows was wrong deep down. if someone was oblivious to the implications of their wrongheaded choice to use a program they wouldn't waste their time on fornits. there's some emotional wound driving thewho character that nobody has figured out yet.

what a great and funny post, guest.

[TheWho]

Honestly I think it comes down to more of a difference in personality then anything. For instance I think I would probably be a much different kind of parent than you are. You might be the kind to structure and control your teens, shelter them perhaps. I just wouldn't be so forceful. I believe in love, not tough love.

Its hard to predict what type of parents we become.  Some parents swear they will not spank their children yet after a long trial and error find it to be very effective and so they adopt this as a mild form of corporal punishment.  We don’t believe in spanking but I can see that it is effective in some families.  You will find that you will need to do a bit more than just love your children, but I am not one to lecture nor press my beliefs on others so I wont.


 

Just the same, you rationalize sending away your kids because they misbehaved, screwed up even and I would never NEVER do that. I would struggle and go the farthest lengths to get my child through the teenage years no matter how hard it was because that is what being a parent is about.

I have never rationalized getting help for any of my children.  Every decision has been well thought out and most of our decisions we would do over again if we had the chance.  Every parent does the best they can to get their child trough the teen years.  Some need help via guidance counsellors, local services and in rare instances placement outside the home.  The majority of the kids get through it just fine and I hope your family is just as fortunate.

I don't believe there is ANYTHING a child could do that would justify sending them to a "tough love" program. Something that I think most parents don't understand is that punishment is supposed to be used in a way that helps teach kids about real life consequences, but most of you punish out of anger and spite and I just don't believe that banishment, torment and physical assault are effective life lessons. But call a spade a spade, you send your kid to a program as punishment not to "help".

I have met many parents who had kids in programs and not one of them sent them away out of anger.  All of them were seeking help for their child and family.  Most parents don’t use physical assault or torment when parenting.  I think this is a misconception here on fornits.

If a child genuinely does need help, there are already ways that they can find that help, rehab, mental hospitals, counseling and community centers to name a few. All of which follow state and federal guidelines and do not violate the basic human rights of the patient and none of which are willing to hold your child against their will unless they are court ordered. BTW "due process" means the process of the law, for instance a citizen (regardless of age) cannot be incarcerated without being arrested or court ordered, It is a constitutional right. I'm not surprised you aren't aware that minors have this right as well. They also have the right to seek legal counsel, to be allowed phone calls to family and access to child protective services, all of which are absolutely denied in the program.

My beleief is that all local options should be exhausted before a family should consider placement outside the home.  If you have a link for this due process, I would be interested to see it.  Does it cover kids who are forced to go to public schools or detention.  I always thought the child was under the direct control of the parent until age 18 or 21.  But I may be wrong.

The argument about the parents being uncaring comes from a point of view that we could NEVER rationalize sending our kids away, and you for reasons we deem to be sick and abusive, can. Your parenting skills would come to question in this instance because only someone who was not able, or not willing to "parent" their children through times of hardship would consider paying someone else to do it for them. I can understand that a parent in your position wouldn't be exactly receptive to our theories, but considering how you have been pointing the finger at your kids for so long maybe you should sit back and ask yourself what role your "parenting style" may have played in their rebellion. The fault isn't always one sided, actually it rarely is, but too often the parents are too prideful to admit their own faults, and it is the child who ends up suffering all the blame. We never said we, nor other teenagers were perfect, just that they don't deserve to shoulder the blame while their parents play a significant role in the tides turning the way they do.

I understand Rationalize to mean that you are trying to understand or make allowance for a bad decision that you had made and that you may now regret.  There has not been any regret on my part although sometimes I rationalize having children in the first place lol.  One part of the above I can agree with is that the fault isn’t all onesided and I would take it one step further and say it is a family issue not just the childs or parents.  If you take your feelings about program parents as described above and flip it over you can easily see how parents who come to fornits view the kids as all druggies and losers.  Because,like yourself, some people have a need to judge groups of people they don’t understand because it scares them or they don’t want to take the time to understand what makes them who they are.

When it comes to the success or failure of the child and whether that is to the credit or fault of the program... my theory is that it is neither. I think that the program simply throws a wrench in the teens maturation process. Most times the kids that went into the program the youngest and stayed the longest are usually the most immature prior to "getting out", Ive noticed that the program has been known to stunt the emotional growth of the teen, even into adulthood. Did we all learn things at the program?... sure. I think more things they didn't intend to teach, however if a teen decided to "change" in a program, that is simply of their own free will. Maybe being out of their normal environment gave them enough time to think about their lives, but the teachings of the program had nothing to do with how to go about manifesting that change out in the real world. There were so many things in the program that were simply a waste of our time and in all honesty that's exactly what it was in entirety... just wasting our adolescence so that by the time we got back a few years went by and we had become adults that you could kick out of your house as soon as we screwed up again. If you had lived through the program you would know what I mean. If kids came out of there changed (which rarely is that the case) than GREAT but ever think to give the kid credit for maturing a little bit? Just the same if the kid comes home and goes right back to the drugs and drinking and "old habits" that is still their choice and has nothing to do with the program. It could however be evidence that the program has no tangible effect on teens, besides a few months of social shell shock and gratitude to be home. See I don't put that double standard on this issue, I am of the opinion that regardless of if the teen succeeds or fails, the program still operated an ineffective system. The "fault" of the program is only dependent on how much psychological damage was caused, and often that doesn't even come to light until after YEARS of therapy. Going out and partying, that's just the natural process of the young human being and again, has nothing to do with the program besides just making up for lost time.

Actually my daughter came back and was mature ahead of her peers when she returned.  The kids that she graduated with had experienced the same thing upon returning home.  

But lets talk for a moment about your side of the fences argument on this one, usually if a kid succeeds after the program, then its said the the program somehow saved their life, and deserves the credit and when the kid goes back to drugs or commits suicide, all of a sudden the program takes no responsibility for the teens personal choices. Now wouldn't you assume it only fair, if they intend to take credit for the success of the teen, shouldn't they take fault for the failure?... and why do you expect anything different from us?? I tend to believe that the kids just pick up where they left off and even if they hadn't gone to the program they would still either mature on their own or screw themselves over and there's nothing anyone could do would stop that.

I believe theprogram can take credit for putting the child on the right path and that is it.
If the child gets out and gets straight “A”s I wouldn’t give the program credit for that.  If the child drops out of school again I would say the program failed either.  The child just needs to be placed back on track, the program cant make them smarter or less likely to commit suicide etc.

We all know that 'kids aren't perfect, just like all people aren't perfect but expecting them to be perfect is usually what gets you all into this mess in the first place. You can't seriously draw the line at the fact that your 15 year old smokes weed and skips school, that is honestly the most normal teenage behavior in the book. It's rebellious, dangerous and stupid and calls for some heavy parenting but NOT getting sent away. I'm of the opinion that if a parent feels that its an appropriate decision to send their kid away for minor infractions, their parenting (and logic) should be taken into question. Its just cruel. The programs are rough and its unfair to any kid to have to go through that, but especially when the crime doesn't fit the punishment.

I agree 100%.  This is why I think prior to placing a child into a program there should be an independent person like a therapist, school counsellor that needs to sign off on it.

case and point, Katie... check out that girls myspace, I would be surprised if that girl could do half the things most girls her age are capable of. So she gets into bad arguments with her parents, calls her step mom a bitch... don't you think its possible her step mom IS a bitch? Don't you think they hound her on every detail of her life and all the small little things she does wrong and never let her forget it... I bet they do. Otherwise, I doubt a sweet looking girl like that would ever feel so upset as to act out in that way. You talk a lot about the actions of Katie in CCM that, despite her words of sincerity her actions showed her true intentions. Now think about the words of the step mom, basically talking about how she hates Katie and ask yourself what actions this woman must be displaying to Katie to make her so upset... its a clear picture as to why this family had so many issues when Katie first came home, her parents were unwilling to forgive her for the past and treated her harshly, which created tension and then lead to blow outs. Teenagers are expected to be making mistakes, its called learning life lessons, but parents are expected to handle these situations with love, support and constructive consequences, not blame and certainly not abandonment at a program (and for 3 years? ugh!)

I'm tapped out, I hope that gives you a bit of "my side" of the argument.

I think if Katie had just smoked a little weed and mellowed out around her parents the placement would never have occurred.  
Femanon, I understand that you would never place your child into a program.  You were abused by one so that is the last place you would send a kid.  But you need to understand that parents have been parenting their children for many years and have exhausted all local options (in most cases) prior to considering placing a child outside the home.  Outsourcing parenting  is not the issue.. (this occurs with those who ship their kids to daycare center or hire nannies).  Most kids are placed into programs at the very end of the parenting cycle.   But seeking help and not ignoring warning signs or advice is responsible parenting.

I feel this is a novel so I will stop.  Its been a good discussion so far.
Neil

[Miss Antsy Pam]

Look.  They're WWASP parents, which immediately says something (i.e. not exactly brightest bulbs in the pack... or just plum incredibly naive).

Hear this Miss Antsy Pam? This is what people really think about you.

If you asked her, I think you'd hear a similar opinion from her regarding parents who kept their kids in the program.

You people can choose to believe whatever you want, but I am an ANTI-PROGRAM parent...for the record.  I did not get involved with this cause for fun....I find what they do deplorable!  I do not take what Psy said personally as I KNOW it was NOT directed at me.....blah blah...sticks & stones

READ my signature line on Antiwwasp BELOW if you want to know what I think or what I stand for:

Parents....read BETWEEN the lines of your child's letters, ask for inspection reports...DO NOT send your child out of the U.S. or to any Behavior Modification programs...behavior is only modified by TORTURE & ABUSE...you have been lied to!

[TheWho]

You people can choose to believe whatever you want, but I am an ANTI-PROGRAM parent...for the record.  I did not get involved with this cause for fun....I find what they do deplorable!  I do not take what Psy said personally as I KNOW it was NOT directed at me.....blah blah...sticks & stones

READ my signature line on Antiwwasp BELOW if you want to know what I think or what I stand for:

Parents....read BETWEEN the lines of your child's letters, ask for inspection reports...DO NOT send your child out of the U.S. or to any Behavior Modification programs...behavior is only modified by TORTURE & ABUSE...you have been lied to!

I am a program parent and a little more open minded than yourself and maybe because I am a little more knowledgable.  I believe there are programs that are abusive and those that are helpful.  I don’t judge people I don’t know, so I am sure you have your reasons to be anti-program miss pam.  I don’t expect to change your opinions.  My family has experienced great success and reading here I have seen that others have been less fortunate.

I do agree that parents should not send their children outside of the US.  I have not seen any programs station there which I feel have a proven track record.  Your post leads me to believe you are a little ignorant on the use of Behavior Modification.  Adjusting a person behavior does not require abuse or torture, you have been mis informed.  Behavior modification is achieved thru positive and negative reinforcement.  If you ever had children a critical step in their development was when you potty trained your child (hopfully thru positive reinforcement). This is an example of behavior modification.  I have noticed that many of the definitions of behavior mod, torture, abuse have been distorted by posters here so I can see why people here get this confused.

[Ursus]

BTW "due process" means the process of the law, for instance a citizen (regardless of age) cannot be incarcerated without being arrested or court ordered, It is a constitutional right. I'm not surprised you aren't aware that minors have this right as well. They also have the right to seek legal counsel, to be allowed phone calls to family and access to child protective services, all of which are absolutely denied in the program.

Unfortunately, this is NOT the case in the United States. Kids do NOT have the rights of due process; they are superceded by parental rights.

Moreover, even when the parents are vehemently AGAINST incarceration, kids can be locked up against their will if someone in a position of authority over them deems that their behavior, or even merely language, suggests a possibility of self-harm or potential harm to others.

Whether, in fact, such behavior or language actually really does present such a danger is up to the discretion (or mood) of said mandated reporter. I have known of kids as young as 7-8 locked up in psychiatric facilities simply because they happened to piss someone off in the school administration.

[Anonymous]

whooter must be whacking off to these replies  :sue:

talk about a waste of time. but hey, its your time to waste. but its not the first time a survivor thought they could out argue thewho and learn the hard way its a complete and utter waste, ask robertbruce.

Why the fuck do you care so much what other people do with their time?

[Anonymous]

But what's the point of it? "who" knows what motivates someone who will mock sexual abuse victims.
my guess is he is looking for a surrogate daughter to forgive him for doing something he knows was wrong deep down. if someone was oblivious to the implications of their wrongheaded choice to use a program they wouldn't waste their time on fornits. there's some emotional wound driving thewho character that nobody has figured out yet.

Ding ding ding!!!!  We have a winner. :trophy:

[Ursus]

I am a program parent and a little more open minded than yourself and maybe because I am a little more knowledgable.  I believe there are programs that are abusive and those that are helpful.  I don't judge people I don't know...

LOLs. Say it loud, say it proud, Hooter!  :jerry:

...Your post leads me to believe you are a little ignorant on the use of Behavior Modification.  Adjusting a person behavior does not require abuse or torture, you have been mis informed.  Behavior modification is achieved thru positive and negative reinforcement.  If you ever had children a critical step in their development was when you potty trained your child (hopfully thru positive reinforcement). This is an example of behavior modification.  I have noticed that many of the definitions of behavior mod, torture, abuse have been distorted by posters here so I can see why people here get this confused.

<cough cough>

Most rational, intelligent people would never make the mistake of confusing psychologically abusive (and potentially fatal) practices of coercive thought reform with "potty training," but I guess ya can always try, eh?

10/10 for effort, Who; 1/10 for results achieved.