the dangers of equating AA and programs

[try another castle]

Well, as someone who has both spent time in a program and in 12 step (some people never learn) I can say a few things that they do have in common.

1. They rely on personal anecdotes to convince others that their program works, and uses little, if no factual data or follow up. (The last time AA ever did numbers for attrition rate was in the 70s, and I believe it was 95%, which is probably why they stopped taking numbers after that.) The study that was done on synanon, the granddaddy of many programs in existence today, and also the grandaddy of NA, showed that their attrition rate was around 85% or so. Both of these numbers, btw, are a similar success rate (5-15%) to people who decided to quit drinking/using on their own without the aid of any program.

2. They use shame-based tactics to encourage people to stick with the program. ("Few have failed who have followed our simple program."  with the exception of that 95% attrition rate, I suppose.)

3. They are both chock full of the dramallama.

4. You can be ordered to attend either by the state.


Here is how they are different.

1. In AA/NA, (outside of rehab) you don't live 24/7 in a cloistered environment with other 12 steppers, although many have come close. "This is my third meeting today!" (applause)

2. 12 step, believe it or not, actually has better coffee.

3. In 12 step, you have the best connections for drugs, ever, and you can usually score something relatively quickly.

4. You get chips.  yaaay. chips. Congratulations on being a responsible adult like everyone else.


I'm waiting to see the powerless concept expand into other areas of antisocial behavior.

"Let's all congratulate Joe. Today he is celebrating one year of not beating his wife."

hooray, joe. I love you joe.

In all fairness, while they both use ridiculous methods to battle drug addiction (both real and imagined) they do it in different ways. The program does it through coercion, manipulation and a mixture of new age hippie drama spirituality or just conventional religion, and 12 step does it through... uh.. wait. Never mind.

Oh yeah, there's also this other bit about how many programs today actually use 12 step as part of their "therapy". That's not *too* relevant, but I thought I'd throw it out there.  :beat:

keep coming back!

[Anonymous]

keep coming back!

it works if you work it!

[Anonymous]

keep coming back!

it works if you work it!

Let go and let God.  This from AA, which claims to be secular.  Anything can be your higher power, as long as your higher power has a son named Jesus and doesn't offend the Christian sensibilities of the rest of the group.  "God, grant me the strength"...blah blah blah.

[try another castle]

keep coming back!

it works if you work it!

So work it cause you're worth it.


heh. yeah, when I reached the fearless moral inventory step I said "ok, this sounds a bit too familiar.." and just went back to step 1 for the rest of my time in the fold.

Let go and let God. This from AA, which claims to be secular. Anything can be your higher power, as long as your higher power has a son named Jesus and doesn't offend the Christian sensibilities of the rest of the group. "God, grant me the strength"...blah blah blah.

Small price to pay for such awesome access to any drug you could possibly imagine.

[Anonymous]

Let go and let God. This from AA, which claims to be secular. Anything can be your higher power, as long as your higher power has a son named Jesus and doesn't offend the Christian sensibilities of the rest of the group. "God, grant me the strength"...blah blah blah.

Small price to pay for such awesome access to any drug you could possibly imagine.

Wow!  I just had a Moment of Clarity after reading your post!  I'm off to AA to look for Ibogaine and Yage!  LOL.  But I have no doubt you're right.

Have you heard of "13th stepping"?  It's when an old timer in the program befriends or sponsors a neophyte teetotaler offering comfort and advice, then the sponsor fucks the neophyte.  That's "13th stepping", it's one of the unwritten "traditions" of AA.  How many oldtimers at AA are unrepentant practicing drunks using meetings to fuck the confused and vulnerable?  

Damn,  95% attrition rate.  Like any program, they quit using numbers that show failure.

[try another castle]

Have you heard of "13th stepping"?  It's when an old timer in the program befriends or sponsors a neophyte teetotaler offering comfort and advice, then the sponsor fucks the neophyte.  That's "13th stepping", it's one of the unwritten "traditions" of AA.  How many oldtimers at AA are unrepentant practicing drunks using meetings to fuck the confused and vulnerable?  

Damn,  95% attrition rate.  Like any program, they quit using numbers that show failure.

That's the other thing that's easy to score in 12 step... tail.

[Antigen]

keep coming back!

it works if you work it!

Pretty much like a lucky rabbit's foot. Never did do the rabbit much good, though.

God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do and the superior eye sight to tell them apart before they see me.

[Anonymous]

The thing with AA/NA is, you can't go sober otherwise it is dismally boring. Get really wasted before you go, and then tell everyone how wasted you are and how much programs suck. It's cool, because they'll listen. It's a lot less boring that way, and people will take you out for a meal afterwards and try to help you (pay for your meal).

It's not that bad, if it's voluntary. I collect chips, and sell them on ebay. Yep, people buy sober chips on ebay. Who'd a thunk it?

[Anonymous]

I have to say I can see where original poster is coming from. The no 1 issue with programs is that they incarcerate and institutionalize kids as well as take a punitive sinister mind controlling approach. It primarily is about loss of liberty. I can see the problems with court mandated AA as well, but aside from this people go to AA voluntarily. They either stay & are happy or don't like it and make the choice available to them as free citizens and leave. As 90% leave the place is not a cult. It is just a somewhat wacky approach to peoples demons. In this respect comparing it to the industry makes the industry seem much less bad than it is

[try another castle]

It's not that bad, if it's voluntary. I collect chips, and sell them on ebay. Yep, people buy sober chips on ebay. Who'd a thunk it?

HA! That's what I did!! I sold several metal ones, including two 18 month chips. I got a little over a dollar for them.

How much did you get for yours?

[Anonymous]

Well, as someone who has both spent time in a program and in 12 step (some people never learn) I can say a few things that they do have in common.

1. They rely on personal anecdotes to convince others that their program works, and uses little, if no factual data or follow up. (The last time AA ever did numbers for attrition rate was in the 70s, and I believe it was 95%, which is probably why they stopped taking numbers after that.) The study that was done on synanon, the granddaddy of many programs in existence today, and also the grandaddy of NA, showed that their attrition rate was around 85% or so. Both of these numbers, btw, are a similar success rate (5-15%) to people who decided to quit drinking/using on their own without the aid of any program.

2. They use shame-based tactics to encourage people to stick with the program. ("Few have failed who have followed our simple program."  with the exception of that 95% attrition rate, I suppose.)

3. They are both chock full of the dramallama.

4. You can be ordered to attend either by the state.


Here is how they are different.

1. In AA/NA, (outside of rehab) you don't live 24/7 in a cloistered environment with other 12 steppers, although many have come close. "This is my third meeting today!" (applause)

2. 12 step, believe it or not, actually has better coffee.

3. In 12 step, you have the best connections for drugs, ever, and you can usually score something relatively quickly.

4. You get chips.  yaaay. chips. Congratulations on being a responsible adult like everyone else.


I'm waiting to see the powerless concept expand into other areas of antisocial behavior.

"Let's all congratulate Joe. Today he is celebrating one year of not beating his wife."

hooray, joe. I love you joe.

In all fairness, while they both use ridiculous methods to battle drug addiction (both real and imagined) they do it in different ways. The program does it through coercion, manipulation and a mixture of new age hippie drama spirituality or just conventional religion, and 12 step does it through... uh.. wait. Never mind.

Oh yeah, there's also this other bit about how many programs today actually use 12 step as part of their "therapy". That's not *too* relevant, but I thought I'd throw it out there.  :beat:

keep coming back!

just for arguments sake, if 80% or whatever are gone by the end of the year, maybe they've gotten sober? There's also quite a bit of research providing evidence for it's effectiveness. i'm not pro-aa, but i think there's an overselling of its ineffectiveness here.
Here’s an abstract about how AA works better then cognitive behavioral therapy (50% sobriety rate vs 37%:)

http://www.jointogether.org/news/resear ... by-30.html

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 1&SRETRY=0

Here’s a study showing that “Individuals who obtain help for a drinking problem,[aa or other] especially relatively quickly, do somewhat better on drinking outcomes over 8 years than those who do not receive help, but there is little difference between types of help on long-term drinking outcomes.” http://recoveryissexy.com/12-step-treat ... lternative.

Here’s another study evidencing AA’s effectiveness. “Compared with individuals who remained untreated, individuals who obtained 27 weeks or more of treatment in the first year after seeking help had better 16-year alcohol-related outcomes” http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 5/abstract,

This study also holds A.A. as helpful
 http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa49.htm and this one too

I don't get "shame based" from  a.a. The spiritual element even though they say "higher power as you define it" is a little unweildly.

I think its helpful because of the "support" and "sponser" element. aa was revolutionary because it actually alleviated the alchohlic from shame and gave the alchoholic hope. At the time AA arose the medical thought was that alchoholism was incurable, and  popular thinking was that alchoholics were just weak-willed losers. In Your Opinion, do you really feel that going to meetings was like being in CEDU? my friend defined CEDU as the place he learned "the meaning of terror and suffering." I know you don't intend it, but i actually feel pain at the comparison because it minimizes my friend's suffering. Maybe you were there in an easy year? Maybe you made freinds with a helpful staff/peer leader?

[Anonymous]

I have to say I can see where original poster is coming from. The no 1 issue with programs is that they incarcerate and institutionalize kids as well as take a punitive sinister mind controlling approach. It primarily is about loss of liberty. I can see the problems with court mandated AA as well, but aside from this people go to AA voluntarily. They either stay & are happy or don't like it and make the choice available to them as free citizens and leave. As 90% leave the place is not a cult. It is just a somewhat wacky approach to peoples demons. In this respect comparing it to the industry makes the industry seem much less bad than it is

Even when you’re court mandated, you are just ordered to attend. You can't be ordered to "succeed" according to "group." If that was true, then I'd get upset. As it is you can just sit their in silence grimacing the whole time. It’s like being court ordered to anger management class.

[Anonymous]

I have to say I can see where original poster is coming from. The no 1 issue with programs is that they incarcerate and institutionalize kids as well as take a punitive sinister mind controlling approach. It primarily is about loss of liberty. I can see the problems with court mandated AA as well, but aside from this people go to AA voluntarily. They either stay & are happy or don't like it and make the choice available to them as free citizens and leave. As 90% leave the place is not a cult. It is just a somewhat wacky approach to peoples demons. In this respect comparing it to the industry makes the industry seem much less bad than it is

Not really because AA and it's approach is sort of the basis for many of the 'treatment centers'.  And even without a court order, it very often IS extremely coercive.  Either thru family members believing in the tough love part of it or societal pressures because AA is pretty much unquestioned as "the way".  Not to mention the deadinsaneorinjail aspect.  AA tells it's members that they are "surely signing their own death warrant" if they leave.  Sounds pretty program like to me.

[Che Gookin]

Fuck you castle..

I thought you meant potato chips..


ASSHOLE!

[Anonymous]

Even when you’re court mandated, you are just ordered to attend. You can't be ordered to "succeed" according to "group." If that was true, then I'd get upset. As it is you can just sit their in silence grimacing the whole time. It’s like being court ordered to anger management class.

The constitution is supposed to keep government from forcing anyone to join a religious group or even attend a religious meeting.