Youth facility officials don't know cause of teen's death

[Ursus]

Translation from Medical: An enlarged heart. Again. Hot shit, what are the odds? It's a fucking plague.

Hmm. Same as 14-year-old James Roman (posted earlier in this thread). I wonder how common that is in teenagers? I honestly don't know. I've generally read about it in reference to adults...

[Whooter]

Translation from Medical: An enlarged heart. Again. Hot shit, what are the odds? It's a fucking plague.

Hmm. Same as 14-year-old James Roman (posted earlier in this thread). I wonder how common that is in teenagers? I honestly don't know. I've generally read about it in reference to adults...

Its actually more common in teens:

It happens all over the country, it is not unique to programs at all.  Here are some reports I found during a google search:


Each start of the new school year, headlines bear the names of a handful of young, seemingly healthy athletes who die suddenly on the basketball court, the football field, or the track.
Already this school year, three Houston-area teen athletes, ranging from 12 to 19 years old have died suddenly during or following athletic workouts. Though one was attributed to an aggressive form of meningitis, the other two were determined to be either from enlarged hearts or fatal arrhythmias.
Link

People of any age can develop hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. Often people with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy have no symptoms. Unfortunately, the first sign of the condition may be sudden death caused by an abnormal heart rhythm. When symptoms do appear, they include shortness of breath on exertion, dizziness, fainting, fatigue, and chest pain. The American Heart Association reports that 36% of young athletes who die suddenly have probable or definite hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.
Link



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[Pile of Dead Kids]

I wonder how common that is in teenagers? I honestly don't know. I've generally read about it in reference to adults...

According to the University of Texas, sudden collapse occurs in 1/20,000 people, with a tenth of those dying. This is enough to put it as "fucking rare", but since we don't have any credible numbers (news organizations don't report every death, program total-detainee numbers are laughably inflated), we can't hope to get an accurate gauge of program victims versus the general population.

And of course hypertension is a contributor. Hypertension? In program victims? Naaaaaaw, say it ain't so!

Genetic risk factor + brutal environment + nobody giving enough of a shit to get them to a hospital soon enough = death.

And that's assuming the local medical examiner is telling the truth. Kevin's case? Mmm, probably. James White's? Probably not.

[Whooter]

Interesting numbers, Pile, so looking at this rough and dirty (from what I remember reading) lets say there are about 28 million teenagers in the United States.  Based on your 1/20,000 kids statistic that would mean we could expect to see 1,400 kids collapse with 140 dying or roughly 3 in every state (each year).

Already this school year, three Houston-area teen athletes, ranging from 12 to 19 years old have died suddenly during or following athletic workouts. Though one was attributed to an aggressive form of meningitis, the other two were determined to be either from enlarged hearts or fatal arrhythmias.

Also there were 3 kids who died, just in the Houston area, in less than a year when that article was written.  So maybe there could be a regional factor also along with hypertension.



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[Pile of Dead Kids]

Interesting numbers, Pile, so looking at this rough and dirty (from what I remember reading) lets say there are about 28 million teenagers in the United States.  Based on your 1/20,000 kids statistic that would mean we could expect to see 1,400 kids collapse with 140 dying or roughly 3 in every state (each year).

No, you fucking moron.

The statistic was *ever* during a person's lifetime, not yearly. So even if we postulate that half of the sudden deaths are in the teenage years (half of everyone who is ever going to die from this will die as a teenager), and we take "being a teenager" as between the ages 13-19, a seven-year period, we can reasonably approximate that of the 28 million teenagers, 140 of them are eventually going to die from this, 70 of them are going to die as a teenager, and 10 of them are going to die this year.

And "in every state"? Really? Do I even have to explain what's wrong with this?

Aren't statistics fun? Wouldn't it be nice if you actually knew them?

[Whooter]

Wow lol, you are sensitive to people not agreeing with you.  To put it nicely I see it a little differently, Pile,  since people are entering the group (12/13 – 19 year olds) and leaving them each year and we are focusing on just this group (they are not tracing them throughout their life, people in their 80’s etc., just teens) then each year there will be 1 child out of 20,000 (staying with the defined boundary condition of 12/13- 19) will have a predisposition to sudden death (or 1,400 children) of these 140 will die or about 3 per state.

I found it interesting that the State of Texas had 3 children in one small district alone (in less than a year).  I know we have had a few in Massachusetts last year.  I wonder if there are any total numbers out there anywhere.  That may help to nail down an actual annual statistic for us.



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[Ursus]

From Whooter's second link in the post above; emphases added solely for the sake of clarity:

Some of the many causes of enlarged heart include:

• Coronary artery disease - fatty deposits or plaques build up inside one or more of the coronary arteries (arteriosclerosis). This constant silting narrows the artery. This reduces the oxygen supply, which is the fuel for the pump.
  [li]High blood pressure (hypertension) - blood pumps with more force than usual through the arteries, which puts strain on the heart. Causes of high blood pressure include obesity and a sedentary lifestyle.
• Idiopathic dilated cardiomyopathy - disease of the heart muscle, the cause of which is unknown. Enlarged or 'dilated' heart is one of the most common types of cardiomyopathy. Some of the symptoms include chest pain and fainting spells.
• Myocarditis - an infection of the heart that is generally caused by a virus. A person may have a viral illness first and later have symptoms of congestive heart failure.
• Heart valve disease - for example, a faulty mitral valve allows blood to flow backwards, which means the affected heart chamber has to contract with more force than usual.
• Cardiac ischaemia - reduced blood flow to the heart. This condition can cause heart pain (angina) and often results from coronary artery disease.
• Previous heart attack - a weakened heart muscle may enlarge in order to keep up with the demands of pumping blood around the body.
• Thyroid disease - the thyroid gland regulates many metabolic functions. Untreated, a thyroid condition can lead to high blood pressure, high blood cholesterol levels, irregular heartbeat and enlargement of the heart.
• Obesity - carrying too much body fat is a risk factor for high blood pressure, which in turn can cause the heart to enlarge.
• Lack of exercise - leading a sedentary lifestyle is a known risk factor for a range of conditions, including coronary heart disease and high blood pressure.
• Old age - as we get older, our arteries lose some of their elasticity. This 'stiffening' of the blood vessels causes high blood pressure, which is a risk factor for enlarged heart.

[/li][/list]

@Whooter: I find your emphasis on the following quote, and the context in which it was presented, to be potentially quite misleading:

The American Heart Association reports that 36% of young athletes who die suddenly have probable or definite hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that that statistic is correct, and 36% of young athletes who die suddenly probably have or definitely have an enlarged heart.

But... just how many young athletes up and die suddenly?

Not that many.

[Ursus]

Interesting numbers, Pile, so looking at this rough and dirty (from what I remember reading) lets say there are about 28 million teenagers in the United States.  Based on your 1/20,000 kids statistic that would mean we could expect to see 1,400 kids collapse with 140 dying or roughly 3 in every state (each year).

Somehow, the way you present it implies that it's more common than it actually is.

To put this kind of event into perspective, here's a quote from your first link in the post above, color emphasis added:

Don't live in fear

Reports of sudden death are scary, but parents and students should keep in mind that, despite the media blitz these cases receive, this is an unusual event. It seems that with each tragic loss, the anxiety and fear of children dying of this is elevated exponentially above the actually risk.

"Cardiac conditions with a predisposition to sudden death during or following exercise occur in about 5 of 100,000 participants and sudden death occurs in 0.5 of 100,000 people," Rao says.[/list]

Also there were 3 kids who died, just in the Houston area, in less than a year when that article was written.  So maybe there could be a regional factor also along with hypertension.

I guess there must be more kids in Texas than in Massachusetts, ya think? So maybe your 3 kids per state rule is not too applicable in real life?

[Whooter]

From Whooter's second link, emphases added solely for the sake of clarity:

Some of the many causes of enlarged heart include:

• Coronary artery disease - fatty deposits or plaques build up inside one or more of the coronary arteries (arteriosclerosis). This constant silting narrows the artery. This reduces the oxygen supply, which is the fuel for the pump.
  [li]High blood pressure (hypertension) - blood pumps with more force than usual through the arteries, which puts strain on the heart. Causes of high blood pressure include obesity and a sedentary lifestyle.
• Idiopathic dilated cardiomyopathy - disease of the heart muscle, the cause of which is unknown. Enlarged or 'dilated' heart is one of the most common types of cardiomyopathy. Some of the symptoms include chest pain and fainting spells.
• Myocarditis - an infection of the heart that is generally caused by a virus. A person may have a viral illness first and later have symptoms of congestive heart failure.
• Heart valve disease - for example, a faulty mitral valve allows blood to flow backwards, which means the affected heart chamber has to contract with more force than usual.
• Cardiac ischaemia - reduced blood flow to the heart. This condition can cause heart pain (angina) and often results from coronary artery disease.
• Previous heart attack - a weakened heart muscle may enlarge in order to keep up with the demands of pumping blood around the body.
• Thyroid disease - the thyroid gland regulates many metabolic functions. Untreated, a thyroid condition can lead to high blood pressure, high blood cholesterol levels, irregular heartbeat and enlargement of the heart.
• Obesity - carrying too much body fat is a risk factor for high blood pressure, which in turn can cause the heart to enlarge.
• Lack of exercise - leading a sedentary lifestyle is a known risk factor for a range of conditions, including coronary heart disease and high blood pressure.
• Old age - as we get older, our arteries lose some of their elasticity. This 'stiffening' of the blood vessels causes high blood pressure, which is a risk factor for enlarged heart.

[/li][/list]

I find Whooter's emphasis on the following quote and the context in which it was presented to be potentially quite misleading:

The American Heart Association reports that 36% of young athletes who die suddenly have probable or definite hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that that statistic is correct, and 36% of young athletes who die suddenly probably have or definitely have an enlarged heart.

But... just how many young athletes up and die suddenly?

Not that many.

If you compare it to others causes of death in teenagers it is very small and then factor in a statistic that this generally only affects teen athletes it becomes even smaller.

So what I see them saying is 1 in 3 teen atheletes who die suddenly... the cause is found to be hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.



...

[Whooter]

I guess there must be more kids in Texas than in Massachusetts, ya think? So maybe your 3 kids per state rule is not too applicable in real life?

Exactly.. you take a state like Texas or California you would expect to see more kids than say Rhode Island or Delaware.  What I did was take 140 and divide by the 50 states to come up with the approx 3 per state, but in reality some states will have none and others will have many more than 3.  The article stated that one community had 3 deaths alone in less than a year in Texas.

So, yea, you cant read as once you get 3 kids dying then all the other parents can breath easier for the rest of the year lol.  It is looking at probabilities not absolutes.

[Ursus]

So what I see them saying is 1 in 3 teen atheletes who die suddenly... the cause is found to be hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

To be precise, the actual quote stated that "36% of young athletes who die suddenly have probable or definite hypertrophic cardiomyopathy." It did not state that that was the actual cause of death, although it might well have been and in most cases, probably was. Personally, I don't think they look too much further once they find that enlarged heart.

Theoretically, it could be a number of other factors, not to mention those factors in concert with an enlarged heart affecting outcome. Messed up medication, for example.

[Whooter]

So what I see them saying is 1 in 3 teen atheletes who die suddenly... the cause is found to be hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

To be precise, the actual quote stated that "36% of young athletes who die suddenly have probable or definite hypertrophic cardiomyopathy." It did not state that that was the actual cause of death, although it might well have been and in most cases, probably was. Personally, I don't think they look too much further once they find that enlarged heart.

Theoretically, it could be a number of other factors, not to mention those factors in concert with an enlarged heart affecting outcome. Messed up medication, for example.

There use to be a tv show called “Quincy” I think. Which depicted a coroner who would spend a week or two on each case, interviewing neighbors and family, sending samples to labs etc..  But in reality I think it is more like you said.  They cut the guy open and if it is an enlarged heart they report it as the cause, take the standard sample and stop there.  If the person is famous they may do a lot more testing but if the coroner is as busy as other state employees then they only have a small window of time for each corpse…. Determine the best fit cause of death, look for signs of abuse etc. and move on.



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