General Interest > Tacitus' Realm
Wow, obama is going to win
FemanonFatal2.0:
Well Kathy, Thank you for your response. I'm not going to waste my time on a quoting war because based on your answers I have a good idea what any future answers to my questions would be. But I will just interject on one point:
--- Quote from: "KathyS" ---Femanonfatal you stated a lot and I apologize for not addressing everything. For the most part I believe you have a very cynical view of what these schools do for these families and lack some understanding on why they do what they do.
--- End quote ---
What you probably arent aware of is that my cynical view comes from my first hand expereince with 2 WWASP programs, and futhermore completely validated by the HUNDREDS of people I have spoken to that attended ALL of the WWASP schools and many other Behavior Modification programs, both current and many that were closed due to evidence of abuse and cruelty. One of which you may have heard of was High Impact, My experience here will not only color my view of programs forever but it generally colors my life. Forgive me if I am not holding my breath for the same people who put me in dog cages to come up with another school that is wonderful and great, I tend to think evil people will always be evil people. The one thing you havent experienced is the day to day at a program, I have and I can tell you in all honesty that in too many ways to count they have it all wrong. something you mentioned is that no one will be stopped from calling their parents if it is an emergency, well I don't recall there ever being a telephone available except in the office of the case manager or of an administrator. But I do recall, when I demanded to speak to my mother that I was tackled and tortured in a torn out bathroom for a week straight. You must understand the psychological effects of the practice of complete control, these kids live in fear no matter what program. In some, its fear of being physically abused and others is of simply being singled out and loosing privledges or their progress home. Either way the children learn to avoid reaching out, speaking out or making any kind of stand for their human rights. and this happens in the seemingly "good" schools too I am more than sure of it. I think if you asked ANY survivor they would tell you the abuse exists, the problem is, some of them are lead to believe that this abuse was treatment and that they deserved it and would have been worse off with out it. I think that kind of thinking is only pure evidence of brainwashing and or Stockholm Syndrome. No child comes out of juvie (where they are actually allowed their fundemental rights) and is thankful that they were given the opportunity to go there. Dont you see how ridiculous the concept that these children would be on their own appreciative of being incarcerated? and yes it is being "locked up" because for any number of months or year these girls are not allowed to leave the compound and if they try to run away they get dragged back and abused. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT BEING LOCKED UP IS!!!
Anonymous:
--- Quote from: "psy" ---Sure. But a doctor can get in trouble for such behavior. There is the possibility he could lose his license or even go to jail. There are no such consequences for educational consultants taking kickbacks (other than the possibility of civil suits). What you seem to be saying is "yes, there is no way a parent can be sure... but it's not so bad since it happens elsewhere too!". Am I right?
--- End quote ---
Well there is some consequence if an educational Consultant isn’t totally open. But you are right anyone could set up shop and hang out a sign.
--- Quote --- Fair enough. That's usually the answer i've heard in teh past, but the fact of the matter is: whatever possible upsides to the lack of communication, the downsides are that if there is abuse it will go unreported. During the 30 day period a "bad" program can discredit a student to the parents (telling them to expect manipulation) and threatening the kid to give only positive reports about the program(either implicitly or explicitly through punishment after the fact, or cutting off the call). The danger is what such restriction in communication allows.
--- End quote ---
That is why I am careful on where I place a child and insure there is no risk (or minimal risk) of a child ending up in a situation as you described above. Do you believe all programs do this? Or is your belief that there is a risk of this happening?
--- Quote --- When you were talking to Marcy, you recommended a website she visit. That website is one of WWASP's referral websites. I know parents who have called up that very number and gotten kids accepted over the phone. It was not a soft sell at all. In fact, the parents were quite pressured to place. In addition, the "assessment" that was given was a series of questions such as:
ALL the questions are like this, many of which are reworded/duplicate, leading, or flat out rigged. There are 30 of them. Here is the key:
18+: HIGH RISK. Get help! A Residential Center, Treatment Program or Specialty School is STRONGLY RECOMMENDED. Call me now at 1-800-250-5446.
9-17:Borderline Risk. The problems may be resolved by tightening up the family rules and structure. However, a Residential Center Treatment Program or Specialty School may need to be considered.
Do you not investigate the options you recommend?
--- End quote ---
I am aware of what happens when parents call, but I still recommend them reviewing the site. I also recommend parents visit and read certain areas of fornits. I ask them to read and review and not commit to any decision until they get back to me. If they are still serious and believe that they are interested in a boarding school situation then we go from there. WWASP are not target programs for me.
I investigate the schools before discussing them with anyone.
--- Quote --- Would you recommend a school that has been under investigation by the authorities with substantiated accounts of abuse (by authorities as well as independent watchdogs), with lawsuits, and with congressional testimony against it?
--- End quote ---
Depends on what the allegations were and what the school is doing in response. Sometimes after the spotlight has been on a school it rises up and becomes better than the best. Although it could be short lived also, so its good to keep and ear on the rail.
Do you have any schools which you consider the best of the bad (knowing you don’t recommend programs to anyone)
Anonymous:
--- Quote from: "FemanonFatal2.0" ---Well Kathy, Thank you for your response. I'm not going to waste my time on a quoting war because based on your answers I have a good idea what any future answers to my questions would be. But I will just interject on one point:
--- Quote from: "KathyS" ---Femanonfatal you stated a lot and I apologize for not addressing everything. For the most part I believe you have a very cynical view of what these schools do for these families and lack some understanding on why they do what they do.
--- End quote ---
What you probably arent aware of is that my cynical view comes from my first hand expereince with 2 WWASP programs, and futhermore completely validated by the HUNDREDS of people I have spoken to that attended ALL of the WWASP schools and many other Behavior Modification programs, both current and many that were closed due to evidence of abuse and cruelty. One of which you may have heard of was High Impact, My experience here will not only color my view of programs forever but it generally colors my life. Forgive me if I am not holding my breath for the same people who put me in dog cages to come up with another school that is wonderful and great, I tend to think evil people will always be evil people. The one thing you havent experienced is the day to day at a program, I have and I can tell you in all honesty that in too many ways to count they have it all wrong. something you mentioned is that no one will be stopped from calling their parents if it is an emergency, well I don't recall there ever being a telephone available except in the office of the case manager or of an administrator. But I do recall, when I demanded to speak to my mother that I was tackled and tortured in a torn out bathroom for a week straight. You must understand the psychological effects of the practice of complete control, these kids live in fear no matter what program. In some, its fear of being physically abused and others is of simply being singled out and loosing privledges or their progress home. Either way the children learn to avoid reaching out, speaking out or making any kind of stand for their human rights. and this happens in the seemingly "good" schools too I am more than sure of it. I think if you asked ANY survivor they would tell you the abuse exists, the problem is, some of them are lead to believe that this abuse was treatment and that they deserved it and would have been worse off with out it. I think that kind of thinking is only pure evidence of brainwashing and or Stockholm Syndrome. No child comes out of juvie (where they are actually allowed their fundemental rights) and is thankful that they were given the opportunity to go there. Dont you see how ridiculous the concept that these children would be on their own appreciative of being incarcerated? and yes it is being "locked up" because for any number of months or year these girls are not allowed to leave the compound and if they try to run away they get dragged back and abused. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT BEING LOCKED UP IS!!!
--- End quote ---
femanonFatal, I am sorry to hear what you have gone thru. I can honestly tell you that I have never experienced that with anyone I have spoken to and maybe it is because I read extensively on schools, articles and fornits and have avoided places with a high risk associated with it.
I believe that abuse exists but I also believe that it is not systemic nor ingrained in the industry.
I believe regulation is on its way which will help weed out some of the wicked places which exist in all businesses, but unfortunately we are years away at best. Hopefully we can avoid sending kids to these places byraising awareness via getting the word out and talking about everyones experiences.
Anonymous:
--- Quote from: "KathyS" --- Well there is some consequence if an educational Consultant isn’t totally open. But you are right anyone could set up shop and hang out a sign.
--- End quote ---
The Ed-Conartist (Pun intended) faced no charges, criminal or civil from what I understand. The fact that anyone can hang up a sign and declare themselves and "edcon" makes it a bit different than your MD analogy then, huh?
--- Quote ---That is why I am careful on where I place a child and insure there is no risk (or minimal risk) of a child ending up in a situation as you described above. Do you believe all programs do this? Or is your belief that there is a risk of this happening?
--- End quote ---
I personally believe that most programs do this because it helps to indoctrinate the child. If he's isolated and scared, he'll be more apt to comply quickly.
--- Quote ---I am aware of what happens when parents call, but I still recommend them reviewing the site. I also recommend parents visit and read certain areas of fornits. I ask them to read and review and not commit to any decision until they get back to me. If they are still serious and believe that they are interested in a boarding school situation then we go from there. WWASP are not target programs for me.
I investigate the schools before discussing them with anyone.
--- End quote ---
Would or have you referred to WWASPS schools?
--- Quote ---Depends on what the allegations were and what the school is doing in response. Sometimes after the spotlight has been on a school it rises up and becomes better than the best. Although it could be short lived also, so its good to keep and ear on the rail.
Do you have any schools which you consider the best of the bad (knowing you don’t recommend programs to anyone)
--- End quote ---
I have no idea how to respond to that. It's very sad.
psy:
--- Quote from: "KathyS" ---Well there is some consequence if an educational Consultant isn’t totally open.
--- End quote ---
Lol. You have a point. But she is just one of many.
--- Quote ---That is why I am careful on where I place a child and insure there is no risk (or minimal risk) of a child ending up in a situation as you described above.
--- End quote ---
And yet you referred the parent to a WWASP website? That doesn't make a lot of sense. You wrote: "If you enter any reputable site your identity is safe and there are built in procedures which keeps your identity private. The links I provided are secure sites for you to visit." While I admit that is slightly out of context, you did imply their site was reputable.
--- Quote ---Do you believe all programs do this? Or is your belief that there is a risk of this happening?
--- End quote ---
No. I do not believe that all programs do this. But I do believe that many programs do, and with the amount of bad programs out there, it's not worth taking the risk (it's like russian roulette, but with worse odds). Many abusive programs that have been shut down were opened for a long time and had few allegations of abuse until much later (when a lot more was uncovered). Straight Inc. is a good example of this. It was endorsed by both Nancy Reagan and Bush Sr. It's almost impossible to tell a good program from a bad one (even to the trained eye). There are just too many ways to be slippery about doing things. Even today, Straight Inc derived programs exist using similar or identical methods.
Another case study would be Alldredge Academy (AKA, the Ayne Institute). They got shut down so they opened the next day under a new "official" name but kept the old name on their marketing. There are far too many instances of this kind of thing.
--- Quote ---I am aware of what happens when parents call, but I still recommend them reviewing the site.
--- End quote ---
For what possible good reason? That does not make a whole lot of sense. A parent is looking for help and you refer them to the lions den for.... ??? I can understand trying to say "hey... look at how they con you, and here's how"... but without a warning or disclaimer... even implying it's reputable. Again... It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
--- Quote ---
--- Quote --- Would you recommend a school that has been under investigation by the authorities with substantiated accounts of abuse (by authorities as well as independent watchdogs), with lawsuits, and with congressional testimony against it?
--- End quote ---
Depends on what the allegations were and what the school is doing in response. Sometimes after the spotlight has been on a school it rises up and becomes better than the best. Although it could be short lived also, so its good to keep and ear on the rail.
--- End quote ---
Well. What about Family Foundation. You mentioned that and i'm familiar with it and would endorse it as a good program. Are you aware of the allegations against it? I am aware of their response, but i've heard "we don't do that anymore" far too many times to take it seriously. Is it worth taking the risk. Have you spoken to kids who have been in FFS with critical viewpoints? Asked questions? Asked what to look for?
--- Quote ---Do you have any schools which you consider the best of the bad (knowing you don’t recommend programs to anyone)
--- End quote ---
lol. You're setting me up with that one there. I'll tell you what the worst of the worst is if that's what you're wondering (but then again this is just my opinion). I'd have to say Judge Rotenberg center would be high up there along with the WWASP facilities and the Pathway Family Centers.
I don't do "this is good" I do "this is bad". It's a useful counterbalance to the marketing. It's a practice that, while seemingly distasteful or overly negative actually serves a quite useful function (as you put it, consequences). If the government can't and/or won't do it, private citizens and watchdogs must (I prefer it that way. I've rarely ever seen the government get much of anything right.)
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