General Interest > Tacitus' Realm

Wow, obama is going to win

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Anonymous:

--- Quote from: "psy" --- What about working with the child to choose a therapist who can figure out what is causing the rebellious behavior and/or work to calm the fears of the parents?
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--- Quote from: "childmurdererformoney" ---This is always the first option.  The parents need to seek out an advocate for the child which is typically a child therapist.  Many times the therapist sees issues at home being part of the childs problem and tries to get the family into counselling to see if there can be a solution on the local level.
--- End quote ---

"Try" counsling? Why should therapy for the abusive family only be the “first option”? Why should the failure of abusive or mentally ill parents to get their act together be something a kid is punished for in the form of imprisonment without due process in conditions that are illegal to force on criminals in maximum security prison?

Why doesn't the youth deserve due process, you grotesque, bigoted slaver? Why don’t humans under 18 only deserve HUMAN RIGHTS, instead of OPTIONS for their “owners.”?

Oh yeah, you couldn’t earn cash for bodies that way!


--- Quote from: "psy" --- Does forcing another person to accept they have a problem work in the long run?
--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: "childmurdererformoney" ---No, I have never seen this to be successful.  You cannot confront a young person and bully them into thinking they have a problem. Let them experience it by removing access to destructive habits.

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OK. You makes no sense. But, you seem to be advocating prison to safe-guarding kids from the possibility of "bad choices." But in prison, kids will continue to make choices, just ones in reaction to an extremely abusive, deprived and depraved environment.

You are also replacing the possibility of "bad choices" with the certainty of deep emotional, physiological, and psychological damage.

As much as you pretty up abduction and imprisonment with the terms "escort" and "intervention," those are horrific crimes of violence against vulnerable adolescents who will suffer major and, “statistically” speaking, permanent mental and quality of life damage because of them.

And we just established that kids have problems because their parents are abusive/mentally ill, remember? Therefore, it’s not the kids “choice's” that were the problem, their problem was the environment they were trapped in!

You are also assuming the kid was even making "bad" choices. Remember, crazy abusive parents? These people put kids in not because of their choices but because of their inability, disinterest with dealing with a normal, wonderful kid.

P.S. kids are supposed to make “bad choices,” you brute. That’s what being a human means. Being a parent means responding to those choices with tolerance, love, guidance, not disappearing them from the world so “bad choices” are not an option (while other people can see them, anyway)

I hope you are sued.  I count the minutes, slave dealer.

Anonymous:
Oh my!  There is a lot to respond to.  I didn’t expect to take up this much space.  I apologize for being so slow.  I will respond to  the others after this one.

--- Quote from: "psy" ---Is there a way for a parent to know for sure that an educational consultant is not taking compensation for referrals?
--- End quote ---
No, I suppose consultants could be unethical like any other business, parents just need to be careful or make sure their consultant is affiliated with a respectable group.


--- Quote ---I've never seen or head of a program where admitting a problem wasn't an absolute requirement for advancement in the program. With no due process and often no medical diagnosis and/or second opinion, it stands to reason that a good portion of kids confess (and actually believe) problems they don't actually have. I've seen it happen with my own eyes.
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All the kids that I have ever seen had a diagnosis of some type or had seen a specialist(s) before going to any specialty school.  The kids all know why they are there and are working individual issues.


--- Quote --- I said:The children can work with staff within a group situation to discuss generic topics and how they feel within social situations and work on items which affect the kids within the dynamics of the schools day to day operations like class time, group,lunch,dinner times,social conflicts etc.


Michael said: That's the marketing, yes, but i've never actually see that truly happen. If you know of a program where this is actually practiced, by all means list it.
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I do not know where you wnet to but if it was a specialty school or therapeutic school then they would have a resident therapist or private therapist which would see the children.  The staff is there to run “group” activities and keep the kids safe and busy with activities which are healthy.


--- Quote ---I said "unrestricted contact with parents". Considering history and what has happened in the past, is there really anything at all that can justify interfering with that?
--- End quote ---
For a short adjustment period of a few weeks I don’t see any problem with it.  You need to remember that most of these kids didn’t talk to their parents for weeks/months on end anyway (in any positive communicable way)!  A few more isn’t going to effect the natural bond between them.
I had a parent once who was concerned that the school was not up to the academic standards of the private school they were presently attending.  I asked the parents how many days has the child attended the school in the last month.  The point is that you can be enrolled in the best school in the country but if you don’t attend or apply yourself then its all for nothing.



--- Quote ---I Said: Agreed, that is why I suggest a local hospital to perform a 24 hour observation and assessment alone with the childs therapist to collaborate.


Michael said: Wow. You are the first educational consultant I have EVER heard suggest such a thing. EVER. I know a lot of parents who call up referral services with fake kids and frivolous issues and they have never heard such a thing. Forgive me if i'm skeptical.

Can you name me a program that doesn't admit kids for things like "ADD/ADHD" or "depression" or "disrespectful" and so on?
--- End quote ---
I don’t feel my view is unique.  Maybe some schools would take a child who was just being disrespectful, but I don’t think the average educational consultant would suggest a family take this path without having the child evaluated.  I think if someone told you this there was probably more going on then just disrespect or ADD.


--- Quote ---The problem there is that many programs operate more like thought reform (brainwashing) environments. Have you ever asked yourself how kids could come out of the most abusive programs exclaiming "the program saved my life!" and so forth? Anecdotal, short term, testimonials are not evidence of efficacy. They're evidence of how a person views the program. In that respect, it is nearly impossible to distinguish (without knowing the right questions) whether or not an experiences was truly helpful, or whether abuse has simply been reframed as "therapy". When Interviewing kids recently out of programs, I don't ask questions like "were you abused". I ask questions like "how did the staff help you to realize you had a problem" (and follow up for details). You'd often be shocked at what you hear.
--- End quote ---
Depends on how far the child has come.  If the child was in a really bad place and knew he/she was in a bad place and the school turned them around then they would be more apt to say it “saved their life”.  Most kids just come out better off and move on with their lives.  As far as the interviewing goes it really depends on the person doing the interview.  If a person was against specialty schools the questions would lead more in that direction.  If the interview was conducted on the same child by a staff member from one of the schools then the results would be different.  But I do appreaciate what you mean and I am aware of that.

TheWho:
Femanonfetal you stated a lot and I apologize for not addressing everything.   For the most part I believe you have a very cynical view of what these schools do for these families and lack some understanding on why they do what they do.  I don’t know if I will be able to address all of your points.
I always believe that you need to approach each child independently.  Some kids are just going thru a tough time which can be resolved thru local services like a counselor or a good child therapist.  I have seen many kids before and after attending many of these schools and I can tell you that they are affective.  I have spoken to parents.  Some of the kids come out and go right back to drugs or bad habits which is unfortunate.  Maybe the child didnt apply themselves properly.  I understand that not all the schools are 100% effective and that there are some bad ones out there.  I feel good in the fact that I don’t support these institutions and have the childs best interest first.  



--- Quote from: "FemanonFatal2.0" ---Most kids I knew in CBS had barely experimented with alcohol and 5-8 years after the program they have done every drug in the book. WHY? because the program didnt teach them ABOUT drugs, their effects and how they can ruin their life, the program simply made each girl believe they were an addict and if they didnt accept the program they were going to die. This is most likely the reason that most teens after graduating and given the time it takes to deprogram, realize they would rather live their life even into an early grave than to live their life in the fear and guilt that the program held over their head.
--- End quote ---
Most of the schools I have dealt with have a well defined program which talks about drugs and substance awareness.  I don’t think teaching them about drugs is damaging.  If the child wasnot in a program he/she would have learned about it on the streets and probably would not get all the facts.  A drug dealer isn’t going to tell you about the down side of each drug he sells. Or side effect.


--- Quote --- Forced "treatment" is different then paying to have your child incarcerated in a private prison. If a child is reluctant to treatment such as therapy, or extremely necessary drug treatment or family counseling I can understand a strong parenting hand in the matter. But when you are essentially taking their lives and future into your hands and making such a grossly misguided and completely unethical choice for them, I think they have the right to at least be able to tell you "No, this place is not for me". Things really don't get "better" in the program, no kid suddenly realizes that they deserved to be locked up and abused, that is simply the brainwashing, and the fear of being punished or singled out starting to kick in. You can believe the facade if you choose, but considering how unlikely that actuality is, I would be suspecious at that point.
--- End quote ---
I see your point but sometimes the child will reject  any help at all no matter how reasonable and the parents need to take a strong stance.


--- Quote --- So Kathy, How many paying parents have you had to tell... "Your son is simply being a normal rebellious teenager, smoking weed is not going to kill him, perhaps your abrasive parenting and gross overreaction is the case is what is causing your child to pull away from you"

I garrentee NONE. They are paying you to find a private prison......
--- End quote ---

Your a little out of your expertise here.  You would not believe the conversations I have with parents.  A good part of my jab is calming them down and getting them to chat a little bit about the challenges of raising a teenager and getting to understand each families unique challenge.  I am not trying to find a private prison but trying to find a place which will release the child from the private prison they have built for themselves.  Many of these kids are  living in hell.  You would have no idea the lives these kids lead prior to getting help.


--- Quote --- False. Completely False. I can understand restricting letters or phone calls from friends but what Psy is referring to is that the contact with the parents is restricted and monitored and it shouldn't be. There is no reason for that besides the fact that they are making sure that the kid isnt telling the parents things they dont know about the program or telling them that they want to leave. On the same subject children NEED to be able to access child protective services and they are not allowed to do this. This is the biggest RED FLAG in a program, even the inmates in a maximum security prison are allowed their right to private counsel and these children should most definately be given the same rights. The fact that they dont allow this ONLY means that they have something to hide and that they are controlling and mistreating these kids and making them feel hopeless about it because there is no way that they can cry for help without receiving MORE abuse.
--- End quote ---
You seem to be misguided by your views on these schools.  No one is going to restrict a child from using a phone if there is an emergency.  Communication is greatly reduced for a good reason.  You cannot have kids running around with phones and ipods like they do in public schools.  Look at the reulsts there.  The kids get to talk to their parents probably more than they did when they were home and they get to focus on some real issues which will lead to re-establishing the family bond which has been damaged.
Your language of parents wanting to “lock their kids up” tells me that you have a narrow view of the industry.  Maybe you had a friend who felt their parents wanted to get rid of them or have them locked up, which I can understand.  Growing up we called our school “The Vault” because the windows were so high we couldn’t see out when sitting at our desks.  So if kids say they were “locked up” you should try to understand it from their point of view and not be shocked by the terminology.

Anonymous:
“Post me”.  Why come out and attack me for what I do?  I understand that you had a bad experience but not all therapists, staff members and educational consultants are the same.  I get enormous satisfaction in what I do and I sacrificed a lot of my personal life to get to where I am.

--- Quote --- You know the study where 12 "normal" Harvard students all checked themselves into a psychiatric hospital and EVERY ONE was given a diagnosis. You know 9xs out of 10 ANY kid taken to a therapist will be given a dx, especially when they come with copious complaints from the parents. You know all this, so your insinuation that therapist-use will safeguard against abduction and imprisonment for kids who are not seriously mentally ill is a lie, and you know it.
--- End quote ---
Any child can go to the doctor or therapist and manipulate them.  I have had many instances where a child has been able to get pain medication from doctors for a fake illness.  Eventually the doctor catches on so, yes, the doctors can be fooled, but not for very long.


--- Quote --- Same thing happened to Elizabeth Smart. At first she had to literally be abducted from her bedroom to consent to entering treatment with the crazy homeless man! But in a month’s time, when the police tried to rescue her, she insisted she was the crazy homeless man’s wife and didn't want to leave! He had "saved" her from a life of sin! Amazing what you can make someone believe by isolating, torturing, and terrorizing them, child murderer!
--- End quote ---
I don’t see how this relates to a boarding school and I do remember that Elizabeth Smart was not murdered.  You have confused this story with another one.


--- Quote --- Oops. Then why are you referring? There has never been one study produced to prove these places do anything than destroy people. And it has been proved that residential treatment (in real hospitals, not bemod torture centers) for longer than a short period of time causes damage to the patient. Considering the statistics how do you justify yourself. Oh yeah, you have no bankable skills and ya gotta make a living somehow!
--- End quote ---
I have seen many studies which shows the success of these schools.  They are not very scientific or clinical but the results have been favourable.



--- Quote ---how do you know if the kids you refer "fail"? Do you keep tabs on them and statistics? Are they autheticated in some way, or is there any proof you don't simply "make them up"? Where can I acess these figures? Oh, yeah. I can't! They don't exist!
--- End quote ---
I have seen the before and after of each child.  There is no need to be snippity.  I don’t make any statistics or figues myself!


--- Quote --- "Try" counsling? Why should therapy for the abusive family only be the “first option”?
--- End quote ---
Not sure what you mean?  Getting therapy for the entire family helps that thereapist to see the dynamics of the family and not just the child


--- Quote --- Why should the failure of abusive or mentally ill parents to get their act together be something a kid is punished for in the form of imprisonment without due process in conditions that are illegal to force on criminals in maximum security prison?
--- End quote ---
Not sure what all that means.  If the parents are mentally ill then child services usually take over or intervene.  Most parents who are mentally ill could not afford a specialty school for their kids  or even recognize that their kids need help.  As far as the kids going to prison this is up to the court system and the child would probably get therapy support at the state or federal level.  I am not real familiar with this area.  Was this



--- Quote ---Why doesn't the youth deserve due process, you grotesque, bigoted slaver? Why don’t humans under 18 only deserve HUMAN RIGHTS, instead of OPTIONS for their “owners.”?

Oh yeah, you couldn’t earn cash for bodies that way!
--- End quote ---
Screw you,"post it" ,you spoiled brat, what are you on drugs.  What is it that you do with your life that is so great.  You don’t even know me.  May initial thoughts of you were correct.  You are narrow minded and have very little understanding of the industry. Show me some statistics on how "you" have help kids out a bad situation.  I am looking for long term clinical studies,not just your opinion!!.  Try to work towards reversing the law that states parents are responsible for their kids until age 18 instead of trying to blame parents for not giving kids freedoms to hurt themselves and others.

I am not responding to you further until you apologize.

psy:

--- Quote from: "KathyS" ---Oh my!  There is a lot to respond to.  I didn’t expect to take up this much space.  I apologize for being so slow.  I will respond to  the others after this one.

--- Quote from: "psy" ---Is there a way for a parent to know for sure that an educational consultant is not taking compensation for referrals?
--- End quote ---
No, I suppose consultants could be unethical like any other business, parents just need to be careful or make sure their consultant is affiliated with a respectable group.
--- End quote ---

How does that ensure anything?  The most "respectable" group of educational consultants is the IECA, and although they do have ethical guidelines, they also have no real method of enforcing them.  If an educational consultant is taking kickbacks it won't matter if he promised not to do it at some point.  Nobody is holding him/her to it.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---Michael said: That's the marketing, yes, but i've never actually see that truly happen. If you know of a program where this is actually practiced, by all means list it.
--- End quote ---
I do not know where you wnet to but if it was a specialty school or therapeutic school then they would have a resident therapist or private therapist which would see the children.  The staff is there to run “group” activities and keep the kids safe and busy with activities which are healthy.
--- End quote ---

Again.  Thats the theory and the marketing, but i've never seen or even heard of it practiced like taht.  It sounds like you're being a bit evasive here.  If you know of a program where this is practiced.  Please list it.


--- Quote ---
--- Quote ---I said "unrestricted contact with parents". Considering history and what has happened in the past, is there really anything at all that can justify interfering with that?
--- End quote ---
For a short adjustment period of a few weeks I don’t see any problem with it.  You need to remember that most of these kids didn’t talk to their parents for weeks/months on end anyway (in any positive communicable way)!  A few more isn’t going to effect the natural bond between them.
I had a parent once who was concerned that the school was not up to the academic standards of the private school they were presently attending.  I asked the parents how many days has the child attended the school in the last month.  The point is that you can be enrolled in the best school in the country but if you don’t attend or apply yourself then its all for nothing.
--- End quote ---

Again. You're sounding a bit evasive here.  You didn't answer the question.  You answered whether you have a problem with it, but not what I asked, which was whether there is anything that can justify interfering with parent child communication (what is the up-side)?


--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: "Psy" ---Can you name me a program that doesn't admit kids for things like "ADD/ADHD" or "depression" or "disrespectful" and so on?
--- End quote ---
I don’t feel my view is unique.  Maybe some schools would take a child who was just being disrespectful, but I don’t think the average educational consultant would suggest a family take this path without having the child evaluated.  I think if someone told you this there was probably more going on then just disrespect or ADD.
--- End quote ---

*facepalm*  But I asked you whether you know of a program...  Oh nevermind.  Do you think it's ethical for a program to accept kids without diagnoses?  Based on a phone interview?


--- Quote ---But I do appreaciate what you mean and I am aware of that.
--- End quote ---

That's good.  Because studying how abusive programs have "worked" in the past (what mechanisms have helped them to work... very similar to cults) can help a person recognize current, similar trends in programs (Isaccorp has good warning signs in this regard).  So far as i've seen I haven't been able to find a single program where such warning signs do not exist (which is why I asked if you knew of a "good" program).

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