General Interest > Tacitus' Realm
Wow, obama is going to win
psy:
--- Quote from: "KathyS" ---
--- Quote ---As long as it doesn't conflict with a school you refer to, right? Think about it.
--- End quote ---
You are very wrong in accusing me this way and you know it.
--- End quote ---
Maybe, maybe not. Which is why I put "think about it". Maybe a little reflection on what you're doing, placed in context, might make you reconsider what you're doing.
--- Quote ---You want others to be honest but you live by your own rules, think about it. I am surprised of all people you would acuse others without knowing them.
--- End quote ---
Well. I'm not trying to judge and I apologize if I was a bit harsh. That being said, It seems fairly simple to me. You claim that you refer parents to both sides of things... Yet you exclude ISACcorp because they include information on schools you refer to. Is ISAC not credible? LOL. It's hard to make that argument. In any case the fact of the matter is that which schools you refer to influences the information you share with parents. As you said, If you referred to ISACcorp you would be fired since they have schools you refer to on their watchlist. I can't see the motive in that other than to deceive parents by omission. Do you ever share any negative information about the schools you refer to... such as allegations of abuse by Jon Martin and the GAO, in the case of FFS? Why such a devotion to those schools. Is not the welfare of the kids what comes first? Shouldn't parents be able to decide whether information is credible and be able to make a fully informed decision?
Anonymous:
--- Quote from: "psy" ---Well. I'm not trying to judge and I apologize if I was a bit harsh. That being said, It seems fairly simple to me. You claim that you refer parents to both sides of things... Yet you exclude ISACcorp because they include information on schools you refer to. Is ISAC not credible? LOL. It's hard to make that argument. In any case the fact of the matter is that which schools you refer to influences the information you share with parents. As you said, If you referred to ISACcorp you would be fired since they have schools you refer to on their watchlist. I can't see the motive in that other than to deceive parents by omission.
--- End quote ---
I was curious so I took a look this morning. We have 78 schools on our DNR list (do not refer), but 3 of the schools on issacorps list use to be on our list but have been removed from our list, so we refer to them (this is why we donot refer parents to the site at this time). I don’t have the reason that they have been removed but I would guess it is because they have resolved specific issues. To give issacorp the benefit of the doubt it may be that they have not updated their web site in awhile and are not as current as we are. Our list is updated as soon as information is received. Since we flag 78 schools as DNR and isaccorp only flags 63 shows we must have a more stringent set of guidelines than they do.
I would be willing to guess that as soon as Isac updates their list we would refer parents to them. But is it fair to the schools to penalize them because Isac hasnt gotten around to updating their site?
--- Quote ---Do you ever share any negative information about the schools you refer to... such as allegations of abuse by Jon Martin and the GAO, in the case of FFS? Why such a devotion to those schools. Is not the welfare of the kids what comes first? Shouldn't parents be able to decide whether information is credible and be able to make a fully informed decision?
--- End quote ---
We share as much information as we have on each school. If FFS is a good match for a particular student , we recommend the placement and then we ask the parents if they are aware of the GAO hearings and the problems they have had and we go from there and try to answer all the questions as they are placed to us. We have full disclosure so that parents can make the best decision possible and there are no problems down the road.
On the other hand when “you” speak to parents you withhold information which could save the life of a child because of your personal bias and unfounded judgements. Why wouldn’t you recommend that parents visit strugglingteens.com so that they can see both sides of the issue? You told me that they already have this information, but how do you know?
Doesnt it ever bother you that a parent may come onto fornits and decide not to get help for their child and that child and family would suffer because of it?
Are you aware that FFS is not on isac watch list? Just something to think about.
FemanonFatal2.0:
--- Quote from: "KathyS" ---I am all ears. There is very little that I can do in my current position to make changes. I am too well known for rocking the boat as it is.
--- End quote ---
Then Kathy it's high time you start your own business. I'm surprised being required to refer to programs you are aware on abuse watchlists doesn't weigh heavy on your conscious. I understand you are under the impression that you are doing the right thing, and these schools are helpful for teens, but what I believe we have tried to impress upon you is that the information you have based these judgments on are very limited in the scope of the truth. The only way you would be able to know for a fact if a program is truly a good program is if you have used the methods I mentioned before, and NOT ONE referral service does these things.
Consider this... If I ran a referral service for say, home remodeling sub contractors and I based my recommendations on the marketing materials and client testimonials the company provided for me I might not be getting the whole story. Without inspecting their prior work myself and digging for a wide range of customers satisfied or not, I would really be putting my reputation on the line and be the asshole who referred a client to get screwed. Well, in the case of the Troubled Teen Industry your not only putting your reputation and moral conscious on the line here but you are also putting this teens life and those of their family in jeopardy. Why is it that the policy for referring kitchen cabinets is more lax then referring programs? Do you see our issues here? Do you see why we feel that Ed-Cons are primarily part of the problem?
My problem is not with you personally, (despite possibly your judgments on grammar vs significance) but with this Ed-Con industry. You guys have got it dead wrong, and with just a few policy changes (which would require you to stop discrediting survivors) this "referral" industry could completely change the Troubled Teen Industry and set a standard for the future of higher education in America. What I don't understand is why this hasn't happened yet, and why people would rather create layers of lies to dismiss and cover things up than to truly help these teens.
Maybe this is just an important topic for me, please understand I have had insomnia for many years now and the things I think about are how to actually implement the fundamental changes to make a difference. I also have a strategic mind and this problem has been given many hours of thought toward a solution. I honestly wish I had the money, power and time to hire a team and put these plans into motion, maybe even start my own school. But for now I guess my only option is to ask why those who do have the money and the power are cutting so many corners and destroying peoples lives.
I know this thread has been long lost by now, but I guess I wanted to just top off our conversation with the conclusion that if you are willing to stand for what is moral and good and right, you wont be the one out of a job. Change is on its way, and I must warn you that what you see on Fornits is like the front bakery for the underground tunnel that is this movement. It wont be long till we reach the camp on the other side and take out our enemy and that is going to be the time where you realized what side of the fence you were really on.
However I do thank you for how willing you have been to talk to us, listen to us and do your best to relate to us. and I do think you are a genuinely good person with good intentions, and that's why I hope that someday you will see things just a little bit differently and choose to act differently.
Froderik:
Some Obama quotes:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... obama.html
Anonymous:
--- Quote from: "FemanonFatal2.0" ---Then Kathy it's high time you start your own business. I'm surprised being required to refer to programs you are aware on abuse watchlists doesn't weigh heavy on your conscious. I understand you are under the impression that you are doing the right thing, and these schools are helpful for teens, but what I believe we have tried to impress upon you is that the information you have based these judgments on are very limited in the scope of the truth. The only way you would be able to know for a fact if a program is truly a good program is if you have used the methods I mentioned before, and NOT ONE referral service does these things.
--- End quote ---
There are many methods that I can use to determine if a program is good or not. We have field reports, speaking to graduates, we look at isaccorp, strugglingteens, parents who have had kids placed. If I felt even for a moment that a child was in danger I would never place that child.
--- Quote ---Consider this... If I ran a referral service for say, home remodeling sub contractors and I based my recommendations on the marketing materials and client testimonials the company provided for me I might not be getting the whole story. Without inspecting their prior work myself and digging for a wide range of customers satisfied or not, I would really be putting my reputation on the line and be the asshole who referred a client to get screwed. Well, in the case of the Troubled Teen Industry your not only putting your reputation and moral conscious on the line here but you are also putting this teens life and those of their family in jeopardy. Why is it that the policy for referring kitchen cabinets is more lax then referring programs? Do you see our issues here? Do you see why we feel that Ed-Cons are primarily part of the problem?
--- End quote ---
I see what you are saying, but I do as much research as I can prior to placement. I don’t just rely on what the schools tells us. A person who recommends sub contractors would rely heavily on feed back from customers and certificates/experience that the contractors earned. There was another thread which was discussing Education consultants earning a certificate (CEP). When an Ed-con earns certificates or gets training this it shows they are dedicated and want to get better and learn more about their business. These are the types of people you want to hire. If I were selling sub contractors to install kitchen cabinets I would have to do the same. I wouldn’t think it reasonable to visit every site and inspect the work. I would need to rely on certifications and experienced people in the field. I think we are part of the problem if we do not do the necessary work to insure a child is placed properly. So if I understand you I think what you are saying is if all Ed-cons were required to be certified to a certain level then you would feel a little more comfortable? Because we are also an important part of the solution too. Maybe I missed your point.
--- Quote ---My problem is not with you personally, (despite possibly your judgments on grammar vs significance) but with this Ed-Con industry. You guys have got it dead wrong, and with just a few policy changes (which would require you to stop discrediting survivors) this "referral" industry could completely change the Troubled Teen Industry and set a standard for the future of higher education in America. What I don't understand is why this hasn't happened yet, and why people would rather create layers of lies to dismiss and cover things up than to truly help these teens.
--- End quote ---
You are hung up on the language thing and I think you misunderstand my meaning. I don’t discredit survivors stories, as you put it. I am use to the language now. On your kitchen cabinet idea, suppose I called a customer to ask how their kitchen cabinet installation went and I heard: “Well the guy showed up to install our "plate prisons" and immediately suggested we place our dog in isolation and even gave us names of people who could kidnap little rover while he was sleeping. He abused and brutalized our entire kitchen and one of the plate prison installers denied us access to food and water for a period of time. One guy was nice enough to install a “corner rotation Gulag” so that we could place all our canned goods in isolation for their entire shelf life.”
If there were a group of people who spoke like this I would still refer business to them but I wouldn’t use them as a reference to speak with prospective customers. Not because they were not being honest, but because they use uncommon terms and would be confusing to new customers. I am not criticizing your language or discrediting you. It just doesn’t work well outside your group.
To answer you last question I believe we are changing the industry. Our company has many schools and programs which we do not refer to and have sent notice to them letting them know our concerns. As the schools/programs become more specialized the role for ed-cons will become more important in determining which school is the better fit. Parents will rely on us more and more to help them thru the maze of programs which are becoming available. It use to be a one size fits all, and placement was determine by affordability and closest location. Not anymore. I feel we have gained a tremendous amount of power in this industry and will make a great effect on it.
--- Quote ---Maybe this is just an important topic for me, please understand I have had insomnia for many years now and the things I think about are how to actually implement the fundamental changes to make a difference. I also have a strategic mind and this problem has been given many hours of thought toward a solution. I honestly wish I had the money, power and time to hire a team and put these plans into motion, maybe even start my own school. But for now I guess my only option is to ask why those who do have the money and the power are cutting so many corners and destroying peoples lives.
--- End quote ---
You understand the needs of the industry pretty good I would say. The difficult part is that there is only so much you can do and still remain in business. So you need to balance things. If you hire too many people on your team you will go broke, too little and you may not get enough done which would not be good for the child you are trying to place.
--- Quote ---I know this thread has been long lost by now,
--- End quote ---
No, I am still here. I read almost every day now or atleast check in quickly. I fear I pushed back at Michael a little too hard so he has moved on.
--- Quote --- but I guess I wanted to just top off our conversation with the conclusion that if you are willing to stand for what is moral and good and right, you wont be the one out of a job. Change is on its way, and I must warn you that what you see on Fornits is like the front bakery for the underground tunnel that is this movement. It wont be long till we reach the camp on the other side and take out our enemy and that is going to be the time where you realized what side of the fence you were really on.
However I do thank you for how willing you have been to talk to us, listen to us and do your best to relate to us. and I do think you are a genuinely good person with good intentions, and that's why I hope that someday you will see things just a little bit differently and choose to act differently.
--- End quote ---
I think that my time as an ed-con is short, maybe another year. I am planning on moving on to another job which requires me to relocate. But part of me will always be rooting for kids to find themselves and find a happy path in life. I hope you get the opportunity to work closely with an education consultant someday so that you can see what they do and how challenging their job is. Many perceive it as just placing a child collecting a fee and moving on and it is not. I think as a whole we get a bad rap here on fornits. Either way I hope you can find your place in all of this, you seems to be dedicated to helping kids out and your heart is in the right place. Thanks for being kind, femanon.
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