Author Topic: Waiting On a Friendly  (Read 5637 times)

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Offline seamus

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Re: Waiting On a Friendly
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2008, 09:18:13 AM »
I have a friend , that went tru Hazelden, in 88.She swears up and down,that it was the best thing that could have happened.Ive read alot of the literature that she got during TREATMENT,(and I do believe it to be just that) Its like a blend of rational recovery with the 12 step type stuff playing a somewhat more minor part. In my most humble,and "having been thru the wringer" __OPINION___ meaning ,UN-Like SOME FOLKS ON THIS FORUM,I have suffered at the hands of MALIGNANT,and MOST VILE quackery.-------------------------If ,today , I were in need of treatment,real BONAFIDE treatment ,Hazelden would be my choice.

  AS BOTH A SURVIVOR,AND GRADUATE OF STRAIGHT INC,MORGAN YACHT ERA ,ST.PETE,FLA......DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW HARD THAT IS TO SAY???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Ursus

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Re: Waiting On a Friendly
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2008, 10:45:11 AM »
@TheWho: Yeah, well... "hot seats and confrontational therapy" are still being used in programs to "treat" everything from true drug addiction to depression to simply having a "bad attitude," whatever that means. How many generations must pass 'till humane treatment becomes routine, and how many kids' lives must become totally screwed up in the interim?

@seamus: Hazelden was already well underway in moving away from their previous flirtation with Synanon styled treatment when your friend attended.
 
    There was a time when the dominant mode of chemical dependency treatment was based on a "tear 'em down to build 'em up" philosophy... Counseling sessions sounded disrespectful and dehumanizing. And they were... Patients...don't need to be "put down" to deal with symptoms...they need to be treated as individuals, with the same rights and respect we expect for ourselves. We're concerned because many treatment programs still use these confrontational techniques. Some even call themselves Hazelden or Minnesota models. It's true that we once used confrontation. But we found a better way.     -- Hazelden Foundation, 1985[/list]

    When Joe Gauld attended Hazelden back in 1975, confrontational therapy was still in full swing. I personally do not think that this was the first time he attended, but I haven't been able to find confirmation of that. Both he and his wife, not to mention good old Sumner Hawley, were all quite fond of hitting the sauce to unmanageable levels (well, maybe Sumner was better at hiding it). In the meantime, confrontational therapy was the backbone of Hyde School methodology since its inception (1966), and there wasn't a whole lot of difference in Joe's style before vs. after his visit to Hazelden in 1975. But I digress...

    Hazelden seems to be an organization that tries to be on the cutting edge of the latest and greatest treatment methodologies, and the therapeutic community methods that harkened to the Synanon days were the cat's meow back in the late 1960s through the 70s. The fact that said methods are definitively NOT considered the cat's meow these days merits emphasis. Why are programs for adolescents still using them?

    I should also mention that Eagleville Hospital, to its credit, seems to have also moved away from the confrontational model. A piece of trivia: I do believe there is still a fund at Eagleville for donations to be made in Nancy Spungen's memory (who never attended), that was set up in the aftermath of her death/murder back in 1978.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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    Offline psy

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    Re: Waiting On a Friendly
    « Reply #47 on: August 14, 2008, 11:05:02 AM »
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Why are programs for adolescents still using them?

    Because it gives marketable results:  "patients" who will swear up and down that the program is the saviour, and without it, they would be deadinsaneinjail.  Does it work long-term?  Of course not...  but programs get their "sucess story" far before the kids self destruct... so why should they really care?  The way they function as it is couldn't be more profitable.
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    Offline psy

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    Re: Waiting On a Friendly
    « Reply #48 on: August 14, 2008, 11:24:31 AM »
    Quote from: "seamus"
    If ,today , I were in need of treatment,real BONAFIDE treatment ,Hazelden would be my choice.

      AS BOTH A SURVIVOR,AND GRADUATE OF STRAIGHT INC,MORGAN YACHT ERA ,ST.PETE,FLA......DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW HARD THAT IS TO SAY???

    Personally, stepcraft makes me cringe and convulse instinctively (yeah, I suppose the program contributed to the reaction).  If I were a heroin addict or somethign like that in need and want of recovery, i'd probably opt for something like Ibogaine or pure rational recovery... rather than that powerlessness crap which, in my opinion, causes more harm than good.  It's not logical.  It's a cop out (sorry to use that term).  No amount of dependence relinquishes a person from personal responsibility.  People don't have to drink and do drugs, and if they do, people don't have to take a second or third or fourth drink.  Those who say they do are simply making excuses for their own lack of self control.  Seems harsh?  Well.  It's the logical reality of the situation and if people want to get in control of their lives they should first realize they have control, rather than handing it over to some fictional Easter bunny who may or may not be having a bad day.

    AA statistics speak for themselves.  12 steppers have a 5 times higher rate of binge drinking than alcoholics who don't do stepcraft.  Know why?  I think it's because they're told that they're powerless, and if they have one drink they won't be able to stop themselves from havign another.  Such idiotic, illogical behaviour is not a product of some "spiritual disease" of addiction, it's learned helplessness that's attractive, not to people who want to stop drinking, but to those who want to take comfort in the illusion that their own behavior is somehow not their fault.  It's bullshit.

    To read more about stepcraft, check out the Orange Papers.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
    Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
    "Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

    Offline Anonymous

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    Re: Waiting On a Friendly
    « Reply #49 on: August 14, 2008, 04:45:44 PM »
    Quote from: "psy"
    Quote from: "ajax13"
    So, again, what are you doing, Who?

    He's leading you around in circles attempting to tire you out.  Even if you win an argument with him, he'll raise the same one in a page or two (knowing that most casual readers won't bother to look back).

    My advice is to completely ignore him (click on his username and add him as a "foe").  If you do that, he goes away.  Or you can categorize your responses to his most common arguments into a faq and simply post a link to the appropriate answer in each of your responses (so you don't have to repeat yourself).



    Nailed it.  Totally nailed it.
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

    Offline TheWho

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    Re: Waiting On a Friendly
    « Reply #50 on: August 14, 2008, 05:07:05 PM »
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    @TheWho: Yeah, well... "hot seats and confrontational therapy" are still being used in programs to "treat" everything from true drug addiction to depression to simply having a "bad attitude," whatever that means. How many generations must pass 'till humane treatment becomes routine, and how many kids' lives must become totally screwed up in the interim?

    @seamus: Hazelden was already well underway in moving away from their previous flirtation with Synanon styled treatment when your friend attended.
     
      There was a time when the dominant mode of chemical dependency treatment was based on a "tear 'em down to build 'em up" philosophy... Counseling sessions sounded disrespectful and dehumanizing. And they were... Patients...don't need to be "put down" to deal with symptoms...they need to be treated as individuals, with the same rights and respect we expect for ourselves. We're concerned because many treatment programs still use these confrontational techniques. Some even call themselves Hazelden or Minnesota models. It's true that we once used confrontation. But we found a better way.     -- Hazelden Foundation, 1985[/list]

      When Joe Gauld attended Hazelden back in 1975, confrontational therapy was still in full swing. I personally do not think that this was the first time he attended, but I haven't been able to find confirmation of that. Both he and his wife, not to mention good old Sumner Hawley, were all quite fond of hitting the sauce to unmanageable levels (well, maybe Sumner was better at hiding it). In the meantime, confrontational therapy was the backbone of Hyde School methodology since its inception (1966), and there wasn't a whole lot of difference in Joe's style before vs. after his visit to Hazelden in 1975. But I digress...

      Hazelden seems to be an organization that tries to be on the cutting edge of the latest and greatest treatment methodologies, and the therapeutic community methods that harkened to the Synanon days were the cat's meow back in the late 1960s through the 70s. The fact that said methods are definitively NOT considered the cat's meow these days merits emphasis. Why are programs for adolescents still using them?

      I should also mention that Eagleville Hospital, to its credit, seems to have also moved away from the confrontational model. A piece of trivia: I do believe there is still a fund at Eagleville for donations to be made in Nancy Spungen's memory (who never attended), that was set up in the aftermath of her death/murder back in 1978.

      I agree, I know of many people who have gone thru the Hazelden program in the mid to late '90s who did very well.  Not sure why more programs are not picking their model.  It seems to be successful and non- confrontational.



      ...
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Anonymous

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      Re: Waiting On a Friendly
      « Reply #51 on: August 14, 2008, 05:08:35 PM »
      Quote from: "psy"
      Quote from: "ajax13"
      So, again, what are you doing, Who?

      He's leading you around in circles attempting to tire you out.  Even if you win an argument with him, he'll raise the same one in a page or two (knowing that most casual readers won't bother to look back).

      My advice is to completely ignore him (click on his username and add him as a "foe").  If you do that, he goes away.  Or you can categorize your responses to his most common arguments into a faq and simply post a link to the appropriate answer in each of your responses (so you don't have to repeat yourself).

      Look, Who.  I've talked to AARC survivors, and frankly, based on what they've told me, it's one of the worst places i've heard of.  Maybe you should do a little reserach on who you are defending before you decide (in boredom, I suppose) to give AARC some pro-bono propaganda services.
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Anonymous

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      Re: Waiting On a Friendly
      « Reply #52 on: August 14, 2008, 06:52:05 PM »
      That's some good advice. Too bad nobody listens to it, not even the person who originally offered up such advice. By posting in this thread, psy contributes to perpetuating a conversation involving TheWho. This type of contradiction, which seems common on fornits, is confusing. It's like psy and some other posters have pent up monolgues they need to purge from themselves. TheWho acts as a release valve in this way, because  most people in our everyday lives don't want to hear about it. That's my theory for why people, who know they are feeding TheWho like psy, do it anyways.
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline seamus

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      Re: Waiting On a Friendly
      « Reply #53 on: August 14, 2008, 07:42:49 PM »
      Damn where was Ibogaine,back when I needed it?  :wall:
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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      Offline Anonymous

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      Re: Waiting On a Friendly
      « Reply #54 on: August 19, 2008, 05:48:21 AM »
      Quote
      No he has not!!  He has lied about shit, people and events without backing up any statements.  He lies to make his wife feel good and it is not right.  Makes up facts to suit his wifes imagination. Claims people don’t have degrees.  When people answer his questions he ignores the answers.  
      It will continue until he begins to get honest.

      Parent of a recent aarc graduate here.

      Never heard "get honest" in the real world, but it's coined a lot in AARC.

      AARC has dealings with a REAL psychiatrist. AARC will mention this person's name if they are queried on professionals within their organization. I spoke to her. This person is not on staff and is NOT in contact with the clients. She will "consult with the clinical staff" if it's requested. This is a consultation only, based on information provided by AARC staff, the psychiatrist does NOT interview or examine the client.

      Despite my son's history and previous involvement with a psychiatrist, this psychiatrist had never heard of my son, certainly never treated him and was surprised to hear of many incidents I described that, due to their nature, should have been brought to her attention, but weren't.  

      My client child also believed AARC, specifically Dean Vause, was his legal guardian. He was not.

      He believed "Doc Vause" was a medical doctor, a psychiatrist. He is not.

      He believed Peter Choate was a psychiatrist or at least a psychologist. He is not. But Choate did give him a short quiz AFTER he was already a client at AARC, which according to them, confirmed his status as an addict.

      This "quiz" along with information provided by AARC and no one else constituted the "independent, outside evaluation" that was explained to me to be conducted on my son. I fail to believe that Choate is entirely independent or outside of the AARC program.  

      He believed the doctor he visited (Dr. Alan Stanhope) had no previous or current connection to the AARC program despite the fact that this doctor is the only doctor to examine clients (they are not permitted to see their OWN physicians), is quoted several times on the AARC website, is a former board member, not to mention being married to the provincial youth court judge who ordered my son into the program in the first place and then kept him there as a minor without parental consent which was required to get him in there in the first place.

      This husband and wife doctor/judge team also attended his graduation ceremony at AARC, as AARC appointed 'guests'.

      He believed his lawyer had no connection to the AARC program and was simply a referral despite the fact that the clinical staff later revealed that this lawyer is a part of the AARC's "legal committee" and in spite of the fact that this lawyer was spotted sitting with the executive director of AARC, Dean Vause, in box seats at a Calgary Hitmen/Swift Current Bronco's playoff game.

      I provided a wrapped Christmas present for my son, a dress shirt, along with a stocking full of toiletries that complied with "client rules". A staff member gave him this shirt and claimed it was HIS OWN and my son could have it. The contents of the stocking were later given to him too (sans stocking) with no mention that it came from his family.  

      He believed I abandoned him, and didn't care if he lived or died. He knew nothing of the numerous times I tried to remain in contact with him, but was unlawfully denied access to my own child for almost an entire YEAR!

      He knew nothing of the fact that his autistic brother could not participate in the AARC program. Or that lack of participation meant he had to be removed from our household for me to remain in AARC and remain in contact with him. Despite the fact that there was no where for his brother to go, including AARC's suggestion that he be placed into the custody of Child Welfare even though he is safe and well cared for with his family.

      He progressively grew to hate me, knew nothing of the torment his brother and I went through over the holidays and birthdays and each and every day we knew nothing of his whereabouts or well being.

      Worst of all he grew to believe he was an addict, and an alcoholic.

      His real problems and mental health issues that needed professional help were never addressed and he was treated for problems he had to THEN CREATE to ever get out of the program.

      Don't even talk to me about "lies"!!!!!

      Anything else you'd like first hand information on?
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline psy

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      Re: Waiting On a Friendly
      « Reply #55 on: August 19, 2008, 05:54:39 AM »
      Wow.  I'd like to see the resident aarcolytes respond to that.  Ain't it a bitch when the parents and the kids get back together and figure out the program's bullshit.  It's one of the main reasons the program needs to control communication so tightly.  Just makes me smile ear to ear when it fails, though, and the program is caught pants down.

      My heart goes out to your kid, though.  He's so, so, fortunate to have you, though.  I can't imagine how much easier it's going to be with you to help him through this and explain what was going on.  Most kids never find out how the program play kids against parents as they never reconnect...  It's not just the kids that programs hurt.  So many families are destroyed...
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
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      "Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

      Offline Anonymous

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      Re: Waiting On a Friendly
      « Reply #56 on: August 19, 2008, 06:09:22 AM »
      Quote
      Wow. I'd like to see the resident aarcolytes respond to that.

      Well I'm sure a likely response is that my son is only a "program failure". One of the very few they were unable to "save" and we're probably both "sick".

      Something like that?
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline psy

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      Re: Waiting On a Friendly
      « Reply #57 on: August 19, 2008, 06:18:41 AM »
      Quote from: "A mom"
      Quote
      Wow. I'd like to see the resident aarcolytes respond to that.

      Well I'm sure a likely response is that my son is only a "program failure". One of the very few they were unable to "save" and we're probably both "sick".

      Hey.  In another thread they didn't respond to my post at all in substance other than to get diagnosed as "codependant". I'm so proud. I've gotten my first AARC diagnosis.
      Quote
      Something like that?
      LOL.  Don't forget they'll deny everything and throw hollow legal threats in every direction that make ginger and I laugh our collective asses off.  Some of the shit the aarcolytes have written had me in stitches.  It's like the idiots don't realize they are absolutely fucking powerless over this site. Guess what AARC: accept the things you cannot change (oh...  and your easter bunny higher power can't touch this either).
       :moon:

      ... i really miss the finger emoticon
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
      Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
      Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
      "Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

      Offline Anonymous

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      Re: Waiting On a Friendly
      « Reply #58 on: August 19, 2008, 06:27:04 AM »
      Congrats Psy!

      Yeah, I'm not expecting an intelligent response from the "insiders"

      I'm sure had I been able to remain in the program I would have also come to "accept my powerlessness" as I learned to "live and let God", as I slowly lost facets of my own self-determined life. After all... "That too shall pass".

      *shrugs*
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Anonymous

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      Re: Waiting On a Friendly
      « Reply #59 on: August 19, 2008, 09:45:06 AM »
      Quote from: "A mom"

      Parent of a recent aarc graduate here.

      Never heard "get honest" in the real world, but it's coined a lot in AARC.

      AARC has dealings with a REAL psychiatrist. AARC will mention this person's name if they are queried on professionals within their organization. I spoke to her. This person is not on staff and is NOT in contact with the clients. She will "consult with the clinical staff" if it's requested. This is a consultation only, based on information provided by AARC staff, the psychiatrist does NOT interview or examine the client.

      Despite my son's history and previous involvement with a psychiatrist, this psychiatrist had never heard of my son, certainly never treated him and was surprised to hear of many incidents I described that, due to their nature, should have been brought to her attention, but weren't.  

      My client child also believed AARC, specifically Dean Vause, was his legal guardian. He was not.

      He believed "Doc Vause" was a medical doctor, a psychiatrist. He is not.

      He believed Peter Choate was a psychiatrist or at least a psychologist. He is not. But Choate did give him a short quiz AFTER he was already a client at AARC, which according to them, confirmed his status as an addict.

      This "quiz" along with information provided by AARC and no one else constituted the "independent, outside evaluation" that was explained to me to be conducted on my son. I fail to believe that Choate is entirely independent or outside of the AARC program.  

      He believed the doctor he visited (Dr. Alan Stanhope) had no previous or current connection to the AARC program despite the fact that this doctor is the only doctor to examine clients (they are not permitted to see their OWN physicians), is quoted several times on the AARC website, is a former board member, not to mention being married to the provincial youth court judge who ordered my son into the program in the first place and then kept him there as a minor without parental consent which was required to get him in there in the first place.

      This husband and wife doctor/judge team also attended his graduation ceremony at AARC, as AARC appointed 'guests'.

      He believed his lawyer had no connection to the AARC program and was simply a referral despite the fact that the clinical staff later revealed that this lawyer is a part of the AARC's "legal committee" and in spite of the fact that this lawyer was spotted sitting with the executive director of AARC, Dean Vause, in box seats at a Calgary Hitmen/Swift Current Bronco's playoff game.

      I provided a wrapped Christmas present for my son, a dress shirt, along with a stocking full of toiletries that complied with "client rules". A staff member gave him this shirt and claimed it was HIS OWN and my son could have it. The contents of the stocking were later given to him too (sans stocking) with no mention that it came from his family.  

      He believed I abandoned him, and didn't care if he lived or died. He knew nothing of the numerous times I tried to remain in contact with him, but was unlawfully denied access to my own child for almost an entire YEAR!

      He knew nothing of the fact that his autistic brother could not participate in the AARC program. Or that lack of participation meant he had to be removed from our household for me to remain in AARC and remain in contact with him. Despite the fact that there was no where for his brother to go, including AARC's suggestion that he be placed into the custody of Child Welfare even though he is safe and well cared for with his family.

      He progressively grew to hate me, knew nothing of the torment his brother and I went through over the holidays and birthdays and each and every day we knew nothing of his whereabouts or well being.

      Worst of all he grew to believe he was an addict, and an alcoholic.

      His real problems and mental health issues that needed professional help were never addressed and he was treated for problems he had to THEN CREATE to ever get out of the program.

      Don't even talk to me about "lies"!!!!!

      Anything else you'd like first hand information on?
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »