Define the Ideal TBS

[TheWho]

You're not even a real person, so why bother?

BLATANT TROLLS ARE NO LESS BLATANT NOW THAN THEY WERE THREE YEARS AGO

GET A CLUE

THEY COME CHEAP HERE

Keep reading and get a load of some of the so called survivor stories.  Some are real obvious trolls.  Wish there was a reliable way to identfy the true ones from the obvious troll stories.  Maybe a rating system of some kind may help.

[Anonymous]

Well I am glad to see this thread and I'm offended by it at the same time.  There's a lot of good information and some bad.

First, I'm offended that people here think that all a child needs is good parenting.  I have a child that is schizophrenic, the paranoid type.  He refuses to take medication that would help, because he's afraid of it.  As a parent I don't have any legal power to force medication upon him.  I can call the police if he's an imminent threat to himself or others and this has happened.  My son believed his mother was having someone come over to beat him up so he armed himself with a hatchet.  When the police arrived he had it in his hand.  Luckily they didn't shoot him.  Then the few times he has been in the hospital, they kept him for a week or less then released him suggesting we take him to a psychiatrist to follow up.  Well he refuses to see a psychiatrist, therapist or any doctor for that matter.  He's bigger and stronger than I so don't tell me to man handle him like the police once suggested either!  I could go on about the delusions and hallucinations for a long time, but I won't bore you.  The information I've read about my son's illness suggests that it's one of the worst you can have.  His odds in life are prison, death or homelessness.  So the cookie cutter idea that good parenting is all a child needs doesn't hold water.  It seems that my sons best hope is some sort of long term treatment where he'll take medication and get therapy as well as an education.  

Second I'm glad that there are people that want to make sure that children are safe in programs like this.  In that regard I'm glad you're here.  I love my son dearly.  I don't want to see him hurt in any way.  Please keep up the good work.  Just lay off the absolute idea that good parenting is a cure all.

I'd write more, but I'm probably wasting my time here.  At least it felt good.  I fully expect some illogical, moronic, flamer to have a go at me so have fun.

 
If I were replying to a genuine question, my reply would be...........

What you're dealing with is quite obviously a medical issue.  No TBS, RTC, Wilderness Camp, Boot Camp or any other "alternative" therapy would ever be able to address what you're describing.  Medical help is your only option and I'm sorry I don't have the experience or knowledge to help you.

I wish you luck.

[dishdutyfugitive]

Well I am glad to see this thread and I'm offended by it at the same time. There's a lot of good information and some bad.

Your reaction to this thread (and site) is an intelligent one. I have nothing to do with the creation or maintenance of the site, however, I'm a good example of someone who this site appeals to. I'm a 1990 graduate of a TBS. I experienced a TBS, and am interested in how TBS's effect everyone. That said, I come here to learn from, share and process my experience. As a relatively free form site there will be plenty of folks who show up here with all sorts of bizarre agendas. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

First, I'm offended that people here think that all a child needs is good parenting.

It's not all a child needs but is one of the primary requisites.


Simply put - fornits hopes to educate folks about the abundance of damaging pseudo-support out there

[TheWho]

So the cookie cutter idea that good parenting is all a child needs doesn't hold water..

I have been reading and posting here for several years and this has been a fundamental problem with the way many think here and I attribute fornits lack of ability to effect change in this area partially to this way of thinking.  Ignoring any possibility that the child is responsible or plays a role,  the environment is responsible etc. isolates a huge section of possibilities when coming down to problem solving or looking for solutions.  The fix always seems to be focused on the parents.   After three years of this type of thinking (and failing to make any headway) I believe it may be time to take a step back and take a broader view.

Second I'm glad that there are people that want to make sure that children are safe in programs like this

Thank you, I believe that most of the posters here have the childs best interests at the forefront.  I, myself, believe that the key is to match the right child with the right program and to screen each child to insure a program is indeed appropriate for them.  Most of the people here disagree with me on this concept so I am the odd man out here.
I hope you can come away with some insight into this industry by reading here.



...

[RobertBruce]

Right....Cindy is it your belief that 60 kids per week are dying violent deaths in public schools?

Yes or no Cindy.

[TheWho]

Right....Cindy is it your belief that 60 kids per week are dying violent deaths in public schools?

Yes or no Cindy.

Do that many kids really die every day?  Can someone produce evidence of this?  What is considered violent?

[RobertBruce]

No, it isnt even close to that number. Cindy however in his never ending quest to spew propoganda pretending as much for quite awhile. That is of course until I posted a link to some legitimate numbers that proved him to be a liar once again. Now he's refuses to stand behind his original claim or admit he was wrong to begin with, all because he's a liar and a coward. He hates being held accountable for his nonsense, and I just happen to get a huge kick out of it. If you're interested in the real numbers I'd be glad to post them.

[TheWho]

Do that many kids really die every day?  Can someone produce evidence of this?  What is considered violent?

If you take a look at some of the government figures from the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) they tell us that :

Age group (5 – 18) in and away from school.  For say year 2003:

1,515 kids were victims of Homicide and
1,331 kids were victims of suicide.

Which works out to 55 suicides and Homicides per week.  This doesn’t include all the other deaths due to drug overdose and accidents etc.  I took this information and compared it to the private sector i.e. Therapeutic Boarding Schools, RTC’s and Wilderness programs if anyone is interested I could repost the results.

http://http://nces.ed.gov/programs/crimeindicators/crimeindicators2006/table_01_1.asp



...

[Botched Programming]

Point blank....There are no good TBS's
Face the truth.... It will set you free.

[RobertBruce]

Pay close attention here Cindy, look at what I asked,

Right....Cindy is it your belief that 60 kids per week are dying violent deaths in public schools?

Yes or no Cindy.

in public schools

According to your own source during the 2003 school year a grand total of 18 kids died. Which in a  school year comes out to one kid dying roughly every three weeks. A travesty to be sure, but not nearly the ridiculus numbers your spewing out hoping to scare parents with.

Now what Cindy is doing is taking the larger number that corelates to the total number of school age kids killed outside of public schools. In other words Johnny is walking down the street six miles away from his school at 11 o clock on a Saturday night, happens to be gunned down, and Cindy wants to claim this is evidence of public schools not being safe. In actuality this has nothing to do with public school safety. His school might be the safest place in the world, and he can still face danger outside of it, as is evidenced by the numbers. Furthermore Cindy's claim:

I took this information and compared it to the private sector i.e. Therapeutic Boarding Schools, RTC’s and Wilderness programs if anyone is interested I could repost the results.

What he really means here is his own bs numbers. He dismissed numerous kids deaths in the PTS as "not fitting the parameters" parameters he himself decreed. The actual numbers are far more disturbing then Cindy's claim of only ten deaths, in what is it Cindy, fifteen years? Idiot. If you're interested in the real numbers I'd be happy to post them.

[TheWho]

Mr. bruce, I am not a fan of thewho but I checked his link and the numbers he stated are correct.  I think where you are confused is the 18 children died during school hours, the rest were after school hours.  If a child in a program was killed at 11 o’clock at night he/she wouldn’t be in school at the time but would still be in the TBS.  So thewho is comparing numbers taken from the public sector to those of TBS,RTC and wilderness.

If he only took the 18 during school hours (as you suggest) it would not compare properly to the 24 hours the children spend in TBS’s.  So you see he needs to compare a 24 hour period to a 24 hour period.  This where the 55 deaths per week comes from.

[RobertBruce]

Gosh I wonder who that is posting anonymously.

I think where you are confused is the 18 children died during school hours,

No I'm not confused on the point at all, you are. The original question was to compare public school safety with that of the PTS. What kids do outside of public  school has nothing to do with school safety. In the PTS however the institute in question is respondsible for the child 24 hours a day, because that is the nature of the facility.

If a child in public school dies during school hours or at a school event its counted. If he died in the evenings or weekends or on vacation while away from his school it has nothing to do with public school safety.

In the same sense if a child incarcerated in a PTS institute was let out for a vacation of some sort and died while on vacation, it would have nothing to do with the safety in the PTS.

You're confused on the difference between when the respondsibility for the childs safety ends for the PTS versus the public school.

Let me put in terms you can understand: It ends when the child goes home, from either place.

[TheWho]

If you take a look at how the NCES structures its data you will see that they break it down into “at school” and “away from school”  and then “total” so that they capture the 24 hour periods.  What we did is create a parallel to this with programs and reported on 24 hour periods.  If a child is home from a program and dies then he is included in the NCES data group, if he is at a program he will be counted within the program group.
If you look at the data provided by say caica.org or isaccorp.org, they don’t differentiate between whether or not the child was attending the school portion of the program when the child died.  So in order to compare apples to apples we compared the safety of 24 hour periods of children attending a program (TBS, RTC and Wilderness) to those who are not attending a program.

I think if we could attain the information it would be interesting to look at a subset of the 24 hour data and see how the safety in the classrooms in programs compare to those in the public sector.  But to date that info isn’t available from the private side.  As data collection improves over time we may be able to delineate it into small subsets and capture more detailed comparisons.  Anytime this can be accomplished it leands itself to a freater awareness and assists with problem solving.



...

[RobertBruce]

If you take a look at how the NCES structures its data you will see that they break it down into “at school” and “away from school”  and then “total” so that they capture the 24 hour periods.  What we did is create a parallel to this with programs and reported on 24 hour periods.  If a child is home from a program and dies then he is included in the NCES data group, if he is at a program he will be counted within the program group.
If you look at the data provided by say caica.org or isaccorp.org, they don’t differentiate between whether or not the child was attending the school portion of the program when the child died.  So in order to compare apples to apples we compared the safety of 24 hour periods of children attending a program (TBS, RTC and Wilderness) to those who are not attending a program.

I think if we could attain the information it would be interesting to look at a subset of the 24 hour data and see how the safety in the classrooms in programs compare to those in the public sector.  But to date that info isn’t available from the private side.  As data collection improves over time we may be able to delineate it into small subsets and capture more detailed comparisons.  Anytime this can be accomplished it leands itself to a freater awareness and assists with problem solving.



...

Back peddaling again Cindy? Here's what you had to say just over a week ago,

Yes, its almost 60 kids a week die in our public school system. I would not suggest we all run out and start placing our kids in TBS’s based on this information. We need to realize that some programs are safer than others. These statistics are just a piece of the information we all need to know.

There you claimed that 60 kids died per week in our public school system. Now you're claiming that you're including the entire public sector. You can babbel all you want to about apples Cindy, the original question that got you to start posting your nonsensical numbers in the first place was comparing safety in the PTS versus that of public schools.

So answer the question then Cindy, are public schools safer then the PTS?

[TheWho]

Thewho wrote:

Yes, its almost 60 kids a week die in our public school system.

Meant to say:

Yes, its almost 60 kids a week die in the public sector.

I apologize for the confusion.

This was in response to a comparison of the public sector to the private sector (TBS, RTC,Wilderness programs)
Here is what the NCES reports in the public sector against a backdrop on the industry.




July 1, 2000 thru June 2001   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides   , 2,959 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total

___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides   , 2,868 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides   , 2,846 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides   , 2,722 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
 NCES National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles (caica.org, isaccorp.org), posts and PM?s....  All deaths are verified thru local news articles.
X -- Incomplete or unavailable