Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > CAN ~ Collective Action Network
Flier think tank for AA/NA/TC and etcs..
xEnderx:
--- Quote from: "psy" ---
And btw, AA is not christian at all. Many of their teachings are in stark opposition to those in the bible, such as the teaching that a human being has free will and actions are choices.
--- End quote ---
The 12 step modality evolved out of quasi temperance movement. It has christian roots, and while not technically christian in their practices, the root behavior is there....evidenced by the concept of fellowship and somewhat "blind" obedience to mantra's such as "we keep what we have by giving it away", "It works if you work it", etc etc.
Hope that clears things up....I want it to be understood that I really do know what I'm talking about some of the time when I post on this forum. These are literally life and death things that we talk about...esp in regards to addiction and recovery.
Edit: Let me also be clear in regards to my intention in this thread. I am not attacking the idea of offering an alternative to 12 steps, I am simply stating that creating documentation of the type should include suggestions and information that allows increased access to another treatment modality.
psy:
--- Quote from: "xEnderx" ---The important question Psy, is as follows....."How are you measuring the word success"
Now if you are talking about lifetime sobriety, you won't find a damn program on planet earth that has any meaningful success rate. However if you define it by giving people an increase (however slight) in their day to day quality of life, and the ability to participate in a community that supports the concept of sobriety SOME 12 step communities can be very efficacious.
--- End quote ---
Define "quality of life". If it simply means feeling good perhaps they shouldn't quit drinking. Hell. Maybe they should take up smack or some other opiate. Again, believing something works does not mean it objectively does. Sure people get sober in AA. I'm not denying that. What i'm questioning is whether those people wouldn't have gotten sober anyway on their own. Since AA's sucess has never been shown to be higher than the spontaneous rate of remission it's not really correct to say that it works. You wouldn't say a placebo works, even if a person does "get better" on it... but as i've said, AA is a bit worse than a placebo.
xEnderx:
Quality of life is defined by an individuals ability to fulfil what are called "ADL's". This means getting up and going to work, taking part in society, having a reasonable range of emotions (happy, sad, joyful, angry, etc), and generally feeling that they have a "life worth living".
I've always found it amusing that the statistics of spontaneous remission and AA assisted remission are pretty similar. Thats no joke....but the question of "could they have done it without AA" is sort of a moot point from my perspective.
If someone FEELS that AA helps them, then it helps them. Much the same way that statistically speaking the modality of a psychotherapist (narrative systems analyst, humanistic, behaviorist, etc) has zero effect on whether or not a person increases their quality of life. The ONLY case this isn't consistent in is regarding Cognitive behavioral and Dialectical behavior therapies in the treatment of anxiety disorders.
Just because I personally feel that AA is idiotic doesn't mean I will steer a client away from 12 step if it is somethign they want to explore. When speaking of adults, nobody forces them into an AA meeting (except court) and nobody forces them to really "get anything" out of their experience there.
Now adolescents are a completely different story. I don't really have the training to address addiction in that demographic, but I wouldn't personally push for an abstinence based modality (including 12 step) simply because I feel that it is not an attainable goal for a 15 year old.
psy:
--- Quote from: "xEnderx" ---
--- Quote from: "psy" ---
And btw, AA is not christian at all. Many of their teachings are in stark opposition to those in the bible, such as the teaching that a human being has free will and actions are choices.
--- End quote ---
The 12 step modality evolved out of quasi temperance movement. It has christian roots, and while not technically christian in their practices, the root behavior is there....evidenced by the concept of fellowship and somewhat "blind" obedience to mantra's such as "we keep what we have by giving it away", "It works if you work it", etc etc.
--- End quote ---
All of that depends on how you define christian. AA might have been based on a bible based cult-like group, but in their effort to make themselves marketable to atheists and agnostics they rejected certain christian principles and made themselves heretical to those familiar with their faiths.
None of those concepts are particular christian. "We keep what we have by giving it away" is a selfish statement. The bible teaches to give everything away expecting nothing in return. In the same light AA teaches people that they should make amends for their transgressions not because they're actually sorry for what they've done, but because somehow it'll help them to get better. Personally if somebody ever comes to me to make amends I'm going to tell them to GTFO and come back when they're legitimately sorry and not doing it as some step.
--- Quote ---Hope that clears things up....I want it to be understood that I really do know what I'm talking about some of the time when I post on this forum.
--- End quote ---
I don't doubt that. But don't expect everybody to agree with you just because you have knowledge.
--- Quote ---These are literally life and death things that we talk about...esp in regards to addiction and recovery.
--- End quote ---
So are any risky choices, such as smoking. Do you view addiction as a disease?
--- Quote ---Edit: Let me also be clear in regards to my intention in this thread. I am not attacking the idea of offering an alternative to 12 steps, I am simply stating that creating documentation of the type should include suggestions and information that allows increased access to another treatment modality.
--- End quote ---
Makes sense. Either way the whole flier thing is not my baby.
xEnderx:
--- Quote from: "psy" ---[
I don't doubt that. But don't expect everybody to agree with you just because you have knowledge.
--- End quote ---
Certainly not.
--- Quote ---So are any risky choices, such as smoking. Do you view addiction as a disease?
--- End quote ---
Addiction causes measurable and lasting changes in brain chemistry and in extreme cases physical development. Depending on the drug, these changes can be extremely long lasting. In many cases cravings can be alleviated or assisted by medication. Medically assisted detox is something that is needed in cases of extreme alcoholism. Methadone is used as a long term medication for opiate addiction.
Since is has measureable side effects, clear progression of intensity, and can be treated medically (or at least medically assisted treatment) it fits with the disease model. I hope that answers the question clearly enough. If not let me know.
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