Christmas

[Anne Bonney]

(no, not mine)

[dishdutyfugitive]

I visited swift river in 1997. Brett Carey who was RMA staff in the late 80's and friend of mine was one of the head staff at ASR in 97.

He and Rea Kreider are gone.  I'd love to hear the truth about why they left.


See the part you don't get is that it takes a decade or 2 to process the mental/verbal abuse, censorship and personality suppression these schools rely on. Had you asked me, 10 years ago ,  what was inherently wrong with CEDU I probably wouldn't have said anything negative about it. I would have to guess your daughter is in that 'phase' right now.

It's a 1 step forward 9 steps back scenario.

Yeah, I heard it is like night and day between when they started and today.  They abandoned their original model after the first year or so and then just recently have turned to a more clinical approach.  One of the things I like about ASR is that they continue to adjust and improve, if something isnt working or they get negative feedback from the parents or kids they make changes.
For example in the beginning they use to make kids sit in front of a mirror, if they broke the rules or lied etc., and had to do their studying there also.  After getting some complaints from graduates and parents they dont do that any more.

Wow, 20 years before you realized the negative effects?  I dont know what to say.. if my daughter tells me 15 years from now that the program was bad I am not sure how I would react...she is doing so well, she is happy, moving forward with her life.  I cant imagine, having allowed her to continue on her old path, where she would be today.  



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1. Yeah, I heard it is like night and day between when they started and today.  They abandoned their original model after the first year or so and then just recently have turned to a more clinical approach.

I just went to their website and it doesn't look to clinical to me.

2. One of the things I like about ASR is that they continue to adjust and improve, if something isnt working or they get negative feedback from the parents or kids they make changes.

So it took 25 years (CEDU 1980 to present)  to implement the basics? In 1990 RMA would have laughed at a parent making suggestions.

3. Wow, 20 years before you realized the negative effects?  I dont know what to say.. if my daughter tells me 15 years from now that the program was bad I am not sure how I would react...she is doing so well, she is happy, moving forward with her life.  I cant imagine, having allowed her to continue on her old path, where she would be today.

Yes, 17 years later. My parent's describe/described me the same way you describe your daughter. Yes, I was on a bad path and needed to be in a different environment than my home environment but RMA was the last place I needed to be. I was on a bad path because my parent's handled their divorce about as well as Bill Clinton handles his extra-marital affairs and the CIA collects WMD information from IRAQ. That wasn't my fault. It was my parent's fault. RMA sat me down and yelled at me everyday and told me everything was my fault.

Lastly, when I was at RMA they had been using the "no medicine" approach. The day after they sold the school to a congolmerate (circa 1992) the policy changed.  What more evidence do you need that these places are profit driven. They are strategically acquired 'facilities' to round out their institutional portfolio. The board of directors at places like UHS, Brown, etc. etc. took advice from investment bankers and got into the TBS business.

They need to make amends. They need to make their programs completely transparent. The students need to have their civil liberties respected. Prisoners have more civil liberties than TBS students have.

[Anonymous]

ASR had at one stage a store that dave marcus spoke of the kids working in like a sort of kiosk. Tell us how much did they pay the kids to work there when your daughter was there? Places like turn about ranch also work on the premise that working as a Jackaroo or farm hand teaches kids a work ethic. They get the fruits of the kids labour without having to pay them.

You also mention that most schools dont have kids for 5 years but several kids have mentioned going to a variety of schools and having it add up to 4 or 5 years of their life. Are you suggesting that this is a lie?

I thought I would repost this as you ignored my question in favour of lecturing anne bonney. So how much was your daughter paid for working at the school shop? or did dave marcus make that section of the book up?

Oz girl

[Anonymous]

ASR had at one stage a store that dave marcus spoke of the kids working in like a sort of kiosk. Tell us how much did they pay the kids to work there when your daughter was there? Places like turn about ranch also work on the premise that working as a Jackaroo or farm hand teaches kids a work ethic. They get the fruits of the kids labour without having to pay them.

You also mention that most schools dont have kids for 5 years but several kids have mentioned going to a variety of schools and having it add up to 4 or 5 years of their life. Are you suggesting that this is a lie?

I thought I would repost this as you ignored my question in favour of lecturing anne bonney. So how much was your daughter paid for working at the school shop? or did dave marcus make that section of the book up?

Oz girl

[Anne Bonney]

Naw...no reason in the world to think that these places have a common thread.  Nope, none at all.

:roll:  :roll: :roll:



http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=24456&start=90

Yeah, AMEN.

Evidently Che missed my post about lock up, the room with only a mattress and sermons getting pumped in while you whiled your days away without a shower, & few bathroom breaks.  Possibly he also missed the one about scrubbing floors on hands & knees for hours.  Have I not mentioned that the doors were locked, there were alarms on the windows?  We weren't allowed to see our families for 6 months or more.  Our phone calls were monitored, letters were monitored.  We couldn't discuss our past, couldn't watch television, read anything other than schoolowork (which was a waste of time BEFORE getting the worthless diploma, we weren't allowed to talk to anyone not in the particular program we were in.  We were isolated from society, had sermons blasted at us morning an night.  

Granted, not all of the above is physical abuse, some of it is spiritual, and some emotional...but abuse nonetheless.

[TheWho]

So it took 25 years (CEDU 1980 to present) to implement the basics? In 1990 RMA would have laughed at a parent making suggestions.

Its good to see the mentality is changing some.

Yes, 17 years later. My parent's describe/described me the same way you describe your daughter. Yes, I was on a bad path and needed to be in a different environment than my home environment but RMA was the last place I needed to be. I was on a bad path because my parent's handled their divorce about as well as Bill Clinton handles his extra-marital affairs and the CIA collects WMD information from IRAQ. That wasn't my fault. It was my parent's fault. RMA sat me down and yelled at me everyday and told me everything was my fault.

That really sucks.  Yelling and pointing fingers wouldn’t do a thing to resolve anything.  I can see why you look back on it the way you do.

Lastly, when I was at RMA they had been using the "no medicine" approach. The day after they sold the school to a congolmerate (circa 1992) the policy changed. What more evidence do you need that these places are profit driven. They are strategically acquired 'facilities' to round out their institutional portfolio. The board of directors at places like UHS, Brown, etc. etc. took advice from investment bankers and got into the TBS business.

It is true they are all profit driven like anything else.

They need to make amends. They need to make their programs completely transparent. The students need to have their civil liberties respected. Prisoners have more civil liberties than TBS students have.

Agreed, they have come a long way but they still have a long way to go.

[Anonymous]

It is true they are all profit driven like anything else.

B b b b but you keep telling us what wonderful people these are and they just want to help the kids!

*Gasp*


You mean, they're making MONEY off of us???


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo







Who, you are such a giagantic tool I can't even believe it.

[dishdutyfugitive]

I really hope you rethink that last response "It is true they are all profit driven like anything else. "

You realize with that statement you're lumping TBS's with the likes of Pornography.  
 
I don't think you thoroughly examined the quantity/quality of collateral damage done by this industry.

Think about the concept of the collateral damage ratio. If the school legitimately helps 20 kids and mind warps 2 kids - that's OK? No, it's not OK.

I'd rather be a bum on the street then a TBS counselor that walks around saying, "Hey, I got to pay my bills. A job is a job".


The best way to sum up  that industry is: Collateral damage in the name of profit.

I can't believe that none of the TBS pioneers have ever had the conviction to make amends. It's their dirty little secret.

[TheWho]

Oz Girl wrote:

ASR had at one stage a store that dave marcus spoke of the kids working in like a sort of kiosk. Tell us how much did they pay the kids to work there when your daughter was there? Places like turn about ranch also work on the premise that working as a Jackaroo or farm hand teaches kids a work ethic. They get the fruits of the kids labour without having to pay them.

She talked about the store.  It wasn’t more than a place where the kids could get snacks and such.  It wasn’t open to the public.  The kids didn’t get paid for it!! I wouldn’t let ASR give my kid any money without permission.  These were just chores that each child was assigned.  They would do general cleaning of the common areas, run the store etc…. its not that they were doing it to save money Ha,Ha,Ha, its like having kids make their own bed at home or vacuum the living room and hallway… it teaches them work ethic and being part of the school, chipping in etc.

You also mention that most schools dont have kids for 5 years but several kids have mentioned going to a variety of schools and having it add up to 4 or 5 years of their life. Are you suggesting that this is a lie?

ASR is a 14 – 16 month program (at least it was).  I am not aware of any programs which run for several years.  I guess parents could keep sending their kids away if that is what they want to do, but the schools themselves don’t do this.

I thought I would repost this as you ignored my question in favour of lecturing anne bonney. So how much was your daughter paid for working at the school shop? or did dave marcus make that section of the book up?

Oz girl

I don’t think Dave Marcus would have any reason to make anything up.  I never spoke in detail about the store at ASR with my daughter.  But if she was being paid without my knowledge then I would be pissed.  I set up payment with them and handled all her internal expenses with a separate account and her therapist was handled independently of the school.  There was no need for her to have money while she was there, everything was provided for her.
I will have to review the book because I don’t remember that issue in particular.



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[Anonymous]

I don’t think Dave Marcus would have any reason to make anything up.

Cushy little consulting job with Aspen Ed wouldn't have anything to do with it now, would it?

[TheWho]

I really hope you rethink that last response "It is true they are all profit driven like anything else. "

You realize with that statement you're lumping TBS's with the likes of Pornography.

I am sure you make a profit, hospitals are profit driven, green peace is profit driven, the American cancer society ( a non profit organization) pays its top people extremely well.  Why should therapeutic schools work for free?

I don't think you thoroughly examined the quantity/quality of collateral damage done by this industry.

Think about the concept of the collateral damage ratio. If the school legitimately helps 20 kids and mind warps 2 kids - that's OK? No, it's not OK.

Well it depends.  If the 20 kids were left to their own demise (and did not attend a TBS) and 15 of the 20 died within a year then I would say the group would be better off attending the school.

I'd rather be a bum on the street then a TBS counselor that walks around saying, "Hey, I got to pay my bills. A job is a job".

I agree with you, anyone who says “A job is a jobâ€

[dishdutyfugitive]

I'm very clear on the fact that we live in a free-market capitalist system. You fail to miss the point that many staff/administrators/directors onlycare about the money. The rest is lip service.

"If 15 kids died......"  That's the oldest TBS trick in the book.


You're a program parent at best. You sent your daughter there, she's doing better. Game set match point. Your victory has locked you into not being able to see the collateral damage.  In a way I can't blame you. If I were in your shoes. I'd have to justify everything as well.

Equating Fornits to www.myhondasucks.com ? Wow, you're sucking the very air out of my lungs.

Well  - that's curtains for me.  I was hoping for some original responses from you.

No wait. Back to my original question. I want you to "explain me". Tell me how I should feel now. Tell me how I should reconcile my experience. Tell me how to 'cope with life'.  You pro-progammies need to take some accountability and call a spade a spade.  That might show you have a little insight and character. Otherwise you're just a 'damage control' soldier.

[Anonymous]

but there are hundreds of thousands of kids who benefit from what these schools offer and move on with their lives.

Got anything other than your word to back that up?

[Ganja]

but there are hundreds of thousands of kids who benefit from what these schools offer and move on with their lives.

Got anything other than your word to back that up?

Of course he doesn't, because it's as untrue as Bush's take on Iraq is.

[TheWho]

I'm very clear on the fact that we live in a free-market capitalist system. You fail to miss the point that many staff/administrators/directors onlycare about the money. The rest is lip service.

If doctors just care about the money and not the patients then that is bad, I agree.  But everyone needs to make a profit for their time spent.

"If 15 kids died......" That's the oldest TBS trick in the book.

You are the one that brought it up.  My point was, we don’t know.  If 20 heart patients come in for a heart operation and 2 don’t do well is that acceptable?  How do we measure that ?  What is our benchmark?  What would be the result if we did nothing?

You're a program parent at best. You sent your daughter there, she's doing better. Game set match point. Your victory has locked you into not being able to see the collateral damage. In a way I can't blame you. If I were in your shoes. I'd have to justify everything as well.

Maybe you are right, maybe I don’t see the whole picture because of my daughters success.  I see the down side here on fornits all day long, but I don’t see anyone here willing to point out the advances the industry has made over the decades so I feel the effort made here isn’t sincere, I guess.  People just seem pissed off, but no one is willing to step up and help anyone or talk openly to these parents who visit.

Equating Fornits to www.myhondasucks.com ? Wow, you're sucking the very air out of my lungs.

Ha,Ha,Ha, Out of all the people I have talked to in my life I am amazed at the number of people here on fornits who get offended by analogies.  I think that many don’t understand that an analogy is just a connection between two things that have nothing in common except maybe one thread.  For example,  If I said you were honest as Abe Lincoln.  This wouldn’t imply that I thought you were old or had a beard or wanted to run for president.  I am merely making a thin connection between you and him on a very small level in an effort to make a point.  Its amazing how many people this escapes here.

Well - that's curtains for me. I was hoping for some original responses from you.

No wait. Back to my original question. I want you to "explain me". Tell me how I should feel now. Tell me how I should reconcile my experience. Tell me how to 'cope with life'. You pro-progammies need to take some accountability and call a spade a spade. That might show you have a little insight and character. Otherwise you're just a 'damage control' soldier.

Sorry, If I could I would.  I am not sure where you are right now or all that happened to you.  I would try to not let any one event in your life dominate who you are.  We are all a product of everything that touched us not just our schooling experience or job experience or parental influences or our peer influences.
Just don’t let it consume you like it has Anne Bonney, or people like her, and imprison you in the past so that it requires all your time and focus.  If the thoughts consume you an hour a day make it your goal to think about it only 45 minutes a day next month and so on until you feel reconciling your experience isn’t all that important.


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