willful suspension of disbelief

[Oz girl]

getting back to the idea of independence in producing any kind of literature/ art on this. i initially thought I could take a neutral view but the more i read and the more people I spoke to i realised this is nearly impossible.
To me this is because incarceration without proper legal trial or representation is morally wrong and should have no place within western democracy. No one in favour of programs has been able to justify this except to say it was a way of preventing their child from getting into more trouble. The reasons why people send their kids to programs sometimes make sense so it seems a little simplistic to say it is only an option bad parents use. But no program seems to ever turn kids away for any reason. So few ask parents to keep their kid at home and ride it out. And no program it seems can justify why this is so.
 I Have also come across few if any programs which deal with a single specific issue. How can one place with one method deal with everything from learning disorders to anorexia? In the event that some kids are "saved" i just can not see how this can outweigh the extremely cavalier attitude that is taken to a kids mental and physical health by the industry as a whole. This coupled wit the fact that even the "good guys" like industry stamp of approval NATSAP have chequred pasts and members with death counts makes it impossible to objectively argue for any benefits.

Just my 2 cents

[TheWho]

getting back to the idea of independence in producing any kind of literature/ art on this. i initially thought I could take a neutral view but the more i read and the more people I spoke to i realised this is nearly impossible.
To me this is because incarceration without proper legal trial or representation is morally wrong and should have no place within western democracy. No one in favour of programs has been able to justify this except to say it was a way of preventing their child from getting into more trouble. The reasons why people send their kids to programs sometimes make sense so it seems a little simplistic to say it is only an option bad parents use.

We need to define incarceration.  Children are grounded and forced to stay within the confines of their house for weeks sometimes without legal representation.
Some of the boot camps are lock down facilities where TBS’s can provide plenty of freedom so there is a wide range to define.

But no program seems to ever turn kids away for any reason. So few ask parents to keep their kid at home and ride it out. And no program it seems can justify why this is so.

There are programs which have very strict admission requirements.  Within the group at SUWS there were 5 kids that applied to ASR and only 2 got in.  One went to another school and the 2 others ended up going home.
 

I Have also come across few if any programs which deal with a single specific issue. How can one place with one method deal with everything from learning disorders to anorexia? In the event that some kids are "saved" i just can not see how this can outweigh the extremely cavalier attitude that is taken to a kids mental and physical health by the industry as a whole. This coupled wit the fact that even the "good guys" like industry stamp of approval NATSAP have chequred pasts and members with death counts makes it impossible to objectively argue for any benefits.

Good point, This is a big issue for me also.  The schools should do a better job screening the kids for acceptance.  I think as time goes on we will see more specialty schools where each one would specialize in very specific areas and have models dedicated to working those issues.



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[Botched Programming]

There are programs which have very strict admission requirements.  Within the group at SUWS there were 5 kids that applied to ASR and only 2 got in.  One went to another school and the 2 others ended up going home.
 


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Strict requirements. (How big is your bank account)

Is it just possible that the reason the kids were turned away is because the parents financial status?

You know programs have big hands that go deep in the parents pockets.

It's just like TV evangelist asking people how much they love the lord, then passing the plate and telling them to give until it hurts.

[Anne Bonney]

We need to define incarceration.  Children are grounded and forced to stay within the confines of their house for weeks sometimes without legal representation.
Some of the boot camps are lock down facilities where TBS’s can provide plenty of freedom so there is a wide range to define.

Being grounded is not the same thing as being in a program.  You have communication with your family at least.  Being grounded is also not the same thing as being in jail, but in jail there is due process.  If a child is removed from the home to enter a TBS why should it be any different?

The TBSs that aren't 'lock down' aren't really any less restrictive.  Exit Plans are excellent for keeping kids there 'willingly'.  Their choice is to either stay with the program or be out on the streets alone.  Nice.

There are programs which have very strict admission requirements.  Within the group at SUWS there were 5 kids that applied to ASR and only 2 got in.  One went to another school and the 2 others ended up going home.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Good point, This is a big issue for me also.  The schools should do a better job screening the kids for acceptance.  I think as time goes on we will see more specialty schools where each one would specialize in very specific areas and have models dedicated to working those issues.

Yep, the therapeutic community/positive peer pressure model.  Same one used at Synanon.  Same one used at the Seed.  Same one used at Straight.  Same one used at WWASPS.  Same on used at Aspen Ed programs.

Same shit, slightly different wrapper.

[TheWho]

There are programs which have very strict admission requirements.  Within the group at SUWS there were 5 kids that applied to ASR and only 2 got in.  One went to another school and the 2 others ended up going home.
 


...

Strict requirements. (How big is your bank account)

Is it just possible that the reason the kids were turned away is because the parents financial status?

You know programs have big hands that go deep in the parents pockets.

It's just like TV evangelist asking people how much they love the lord, then passing the plate and telling them to give until it hurts.

With one of the kids it might had been the reason.  I dont think the family was very well off and would have had to finance most if not all of it.    The others were definitely turned down for other reasons..... I believe one was a flight risk and ended up going to a place in Maine.


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[Anne Bonney]

There are programs which have very strict admission requirements.  Within the group at SUWS there were 5 kids that applied to ASR and only 2 got in.  One went to another school and the 2 others ended up going home.
 


...

Strict requirements. (How big is your bank account)

Is it just possible that the reason the kids were turned away is because the parents financial status?

You know programs have big hands that go deep in the parents pockets.

It's just like TV evangelist asking people how much they love the lord, then passing the plate and telling them to give until it hurts.

 :tup:  :tup:

[Botched Programming]

Just a couple interesting points:

(1) The average cost of tuition is in the ball park of 50K a year.
(2) The average blue collar worker if lucky may make 50k a year.
(3) Programs do not have a "Money Back Guarantee"
(4) Licensed professionals such as therapist can be sued for malpractice.
(5) You can not sue a program for malpractice when they screw up a kids mind.

[TheWho]

Yep, the therapeutic community/positive peer pressure model. Same one used at Synanon. Same one used at the Seed. Same one used at Straight. Same one used at WWASPS. Same on used at Aspen Ed programs.

Same shit, slightly different wrapper.

What OzGirl was talking about was a different school for kids with different issues.  Schools now have children with anorexia in with kids who are cutters or having learning issues.  The question was does the school effectively treat both problems.

[Anne Bonney]

What OzGirl was talking about was a different school for kids with different issues.  Schools now have children with anorexia in with kids who are cutters or having learning issues.

Yeah, I got that.  It was the same way 20 years ago.  There were supposed "overeaters", "bulimics" and "anorexics" mixed in with all of us "addicts" in Straight.  None of this is really new.  At all.

 

The question was does the school effectively treat both problems.

They don't effectively "treat" anything.

[TheWho]

What OzGirl was talking about was a different school for kids with different issues.  Schools now have children with anorexia in with kids who are cutters or having learning issues.

Yeah, I got that.  It was the same way 20 years ago.  There were supposed "overeaters", "bulimics" and "anorexics" mixed in with all of us "addicts" in Straight.  None of this is really new.  At all.

So it seems as far as lumping many kids with different problems together, we agree this is probably least desirable.  It would be more effective and better for the kids if they had a model dedicated to each problem.

The question was does the school effectively treat both problems.

They don't effectively "treat" anything.

How do you know this?  What do you base this conclusion on?



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[Anonymous]

Round and round we go..

 :roll:  :roll:  ::blah::

[psy]

double

[psy]

I thought the Hebrew added a nice touch.

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[Anonymous]

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[Anonymous]

It's the fucking Tower of Babble.  :rofl: