willful suspension of disbelief

[TheWho]

Yes. According to a growing number of medical professionals, chemo and other heroic medical procedures are shamefully over-prescribed. While that particular practice should not be banned because, in some cases and based on hard scientific data, it passes the risk/benefit test, it certainly should not be used so often as it is.

A growing number of medical professionals (there was 1 last year in Jamaica and another one was added this year from Scotland) believe chemo is over prescribed.  Maybe it shouldn’t be used as often as it is,  This still doesn’t demonstrate that chemo is causing 51% of the patients who undergo it to die within 5 years.

This is not the case with your brand of snake oil. Scientists do not hold hands at the end of a seminar and say "I de believe in science! I do! I do!" They may be somewhat biased and all too often let that get the best of them. But, at the end of the day, they publish their data, their methods, their conclusions and their case studies for review by the public and their peers and then they direct themselves accordingly.

The majority of doctors don’t publish crap.. they pick up their checks at the end of the week and go home like the rest of us.  There are people who dedicate themselves and careers to research and they submit and publish their findings.



...

[Anonymous]

Wow.  What a way to completely miss the point of her post.

 :rofl:

[TheWho]

Anne, you are so paranoid.  There is no shroud of isolation or secrecy.  Many of these places have no fences, if the child doesnt like it they can just walk away or get kicked out.  Parents can visit the campus and speak with kids at random or have lunch with all of them.  The kids can see therapists who are independent from the school and the therapists can speak with the Childs counselors at home.
This talk of mind control is a little weird, to say the least.



...

Exit Plans keep kids in there.   Programs are the master manipulators.  They manipulate the parents into believing that the kids will DIE if they leave.  They manipulate the kids into accepting their fate by convincing the parents to turn the kid out if he leaves the program or does something to be kicked out.  When a kid is forced with a decision between losing his home and family and submitting to the thought reform being presented to them, its not difficult to see why they really have no choice.

Anne, this says a lot about why you are the way you are.  You really bought into all this thinking?  Hook, line and sinker it appears.  You shouldnt base yur view of these places solely on what you read here, much of it is crap and embelished at best.

We are talking about kids who are at risk and need a little structure, education, safety and time to get back on track.  Others need the help of a therapist.  I dont know what you have been reading but you have a messed up view of therapy.



...

[Anne Bonney]

Anne, this says a lot about why you are the way you are.  You really bought into all this thinking?  Hook, line and sinker it appears.

I had no choice.  If I wanted to remain in any contact at all with my family I was required to buy into the bullshit.  Just the same way kids today are being forced to buy into the thought reform and mindrape.

You shouldnt base yur view of these places solely on what you read here, much of it is crap and embelished at best.

You should quit telling me what I should or shouldn't do.  You suck at it.  Its wrong and impolite and does nothing to further the discussion.

I've visited countless programs and haven't found one yet to be significantly different from what Straight/Synanon/Seed/CEDU/WWASPS are pushing.  They all say they've got "the answer" for these damn druggie kids.  Or anorexic kids.  Or overeaters.  Or sex addicts.  Or homosexuals.

We are talking about kids who are at risk and need a little structure, education, safety and time to get back on track.

Ah, yet most  of the kids placed are done so without benefit of an actual MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS.  They are placed with under or completely UNqualified staff using questionable, at best, methods that began with Synanon/Seed/Straight/CEDU/WWASPS.  If all they need is a little stucture and time, have the parents take them on a fucking road trip.  Or camping for a few months.  Or send them to Europe for a summer.  Have them work with Habitat for Humanity.  ANYTHING but this goddamn thought reform/behavior modification bullshit.

Any time you fuck around with a developing psyche using untested, unproven and highly questionable methods...you're playing with fire.

 

Others need the help of a therapist.

They ain't gonna get that at programs now are they?

 

I dont know what you have been reading but you have a messed up view of therapy.

Even  you can't be THIS stupid.

[Ursus]

ok, hey who: An independently funded and limited research project was formally completed last year... you ought to know that in khk, a program that proclaims to save kids from the "scourge" of drugs, gayness, and overall family dysfunction, there was an average of 1.5 reported suicide attempts INSIDE that outpatient facility from 1998 until 2005. Now, based on speculation, it could be reasonable to suspect that given the ACTUAL treatment environment there which would best be described as 'inpatient residential' that another program doing similar treatment would have similar results. Also, this figure was based on the reported attempts. Not the unreported ones that may have happened. It also does not include the attempts ending in death.

How can you keep a straight face and say that based on speculation?  You are widely assuming a lot..unreporting, underreporting…did the study mention this?

I read it as no suicides occurred during 1998 and 2005.  I think it would be reasonable to speculate that if the kids were not under the protection of the program the suicide attempts would not only be increased but many more would have been successful, thereby underscoring the success of the programs.

Are you saying that suicide attempts are not worthy of any kind of consideration or monitoring?  Seems to me they are certainly some kind of barometer on the deal that goes down there.

And I'd also like to hear just what your take is on "progress" down the road, so to speak.  Given that most of these places claim to make a positive difference in your LIFE, isn't it a bit odd that once the gravy train is no longer functioning at peak capacity, gone also is the CONCERN.

Guess what?  When kids try to function in the "real" world post-program, that's when a lot of the problems and coping deficiencies --  in many cases, brought on by the program in question -- begin to really show up.  Is anybody bothering with monitoring this demographic?  What about suicides and suicide attempt post-program, because of program?

Hyde School does zero "follow-up" beyond the incessant fund-raising spam that follows you from address to address.  In fact, the spam never stops.  Even in cases where Hyde faculty have assaulted and/or raped the kids in question, and the kids have left under the most acrimonious circumstances, the parents never stop receiving the infernal requests for monies.  In one case I know of, even after the kid tried killing themselves post-program.  Because of what happened to them in program.  Hyde's response, concern?  More fund-raising attempts.

[TheWho]

Up till now, the toughlove hate group has been monopolized the soap box, using our own college funds and inheritances along with massive amounts of 'volunteer' man hours and other resources to produce their sustained propaganda campaign. Psy's a pretty talented, competent kid with an admirable work ethic and some nifty toys. But there's only so much an editor can do to slant live footage complete w/ body language and all the other social cues lost on text communication. If you actually listen to the way these boys conduct themselves w/ leo and with the program participants you'll find they carry themselves with admirable constraint and, for lack of a better word, elan. But even if they were expansive, delusional and hysterical instead of letting the cult members dance that dance, they couldn't possibly offset the 30 year concerted, well funded and carefully camoflaged propaganda campaign described above.

The beautiful part is that, on our side, we don't have to spend much or resort to force or fraud to get `er done because people want to get the word out for their own reasons. All we need is rampant talking out in group.

I am not trying to take anything away from the work done.  But the fact remains that it is designed and run by one person and their opinion and what lies on the editing room floor is up to him (no one else).  This needs to be taken into consideration when viewing the film, especially if the film is spun to be all negative towards BenchMark.

No different than if someone who was heavily financial vested in the success of the program were to film a documentary, they would cut out most of the negative comments in an attempt to make the school look as good as possible.



...

[TheWho]

Anne, this says a lot about why you are the way you are.  You really bought into all this thinking?  Hook, line and sinker it appears.

I had no choice.  If I wanted to remain in any contact at all with my family I was required to buy into the bullshit.  Just the same way kids today are being forced to buy into the thought reform and mindrape.

You shouldnt base yur view of these places solely on what you read here, much of it is crap and embelished at best.

You should quit telling me what I should or shouldn't do.  You suck at it.  Its wrong and impolite and does nothing to further the discussion.

I've visited countless programs and haven't found one yet to be significantly different from what Straight/Synanon/Seed/CEDU/WWASPS are pushing.  They all say they've got "the answer" for these damn druggie kids.  Or anorexic kids.  Or overeaters.  Or sex addicts.  Or homosexuals.

We are talking about kids who are at risk and need a little structure, education, safety and time to get back on track.

Ah, yet most  of the kids placed are done so without benefit of an actual MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS.  They are placed with under or completely UNqualified staff using questionable, at best, methods that began with Synanon/Seed/Straight/CEDU/WWASPS.  If all they need is a little stucture and time, have the parents take them on a fucking road trip.  Or camping for a few months.  Or send them to Europe for a summer.  Have them work with Habitat for Humanity.  ANYTHING but this goddamn thought reform/behavior modification bullshit.

Any time you fuck around with a developing psyche using untested, unproven and highly questionable methods...you're playing with fire.

 

Others need the help of a therapist.

They ain't gonna get that at programs now are they?

 

I dont know what you have been reading but you have a messed up view of therapy.

Even  you can't be THIS stupid.

you are way off the mark.  I find it hard to believe you visited any programs, Anne,  it just isnt that way anymore.  I have been reading the posts here myself and yes some are more hash then others but they are not like the straight of the 1970's.  You are stuck in the past and that is all you can see.  Wake up... kids need help..yes they are at risk whether you want to believe it or not.  If you really want to help any of these kids try to get an up to date view of the industry and roll up your sleeves, broadcasting this ancient mind control crap is embarrassing at best and lacks credibility.


...

[Anne Bonney]

you are way off the mark.

Nope, I'm really not.


 

I find it hard to believe you visited any programs, Anne,  it just isnt that way anymore.

 

I don't give a shit what you believe about me and yes, it IS that way still.  Very much so.

I have been reading the posts here myself and yes some are more hash then others but they are not like the straight of the 1970's.  You are stuck in the past and that is all you can see.

 

Most of them are.  Certainly the ones that follow the therapeutic community/positive peer culture style approach.  They're almost identical in their theories about how to deal with those damn delinquents.

Wake up... kids need help..yes they are at risk whether you want to believe it or not.

A small few are and they need actual medical help....not untested, unproven quackery that was derived from a known cult (Synanon).

Don't forget, I've raised two kids successfully.  I've been through the sleepless nights, the dreading of the phone ringing, the fights and arguments, the white knuckle fear that comes with parenting.  I've been through the drug scene with one of my daughters and I've posted before that had her grandparents had their way, she would have been shipped off just like her father and i were.  Thankfully, we knew better and I literally told them it would be over my dead damn body that they'd send either of them anywhere.  Somehow she (and I) made it through their adolescence without benefit of a program.  


 

If you really want to help any of these kids try to get an up to date view of the industry and roll up your sleeves, broadcasting this ancient mind control crap is embarrassing at best and lacks credibility.

In your eyes, but I could really give a shit what you think.  It most certainly IS mind control/thought reform/behavior modification.  Nuthin but.

[Botched Programming]

broadcasting this ancient mind control crap is embarrassing at best and lacks credibility.[/color][/b]


...

I personally feel that if people like Anne, myself, and many others do not broadcast this mind control crap as you so put it, (If in fact the industry has changed based on your opinion) it helps prevent history from repeating itself.

Though out history we have learned that if we do not keep the past in focus, we are doomed to repeat our past mistakes.

Also if in fact the industry has changed they should have no fear of people like us telling what thought reform and behavioral modification was like in the past, as long as they are not continuing the same methods today.

[Anne Bonney]

Botched, you should know better by now than to try and introduce logic into a conversation with him.  You'll only confuse the poor creature.

 :wink:  :rofl:

[TheWho]

broadcasting this ancient mind control crap is embarrassing at best and lacks credibility.[/color][/b]


...

I personally feel that if people like Anne, myself, and many others do not broadcast this mind control crap as you so put it, (If in fact the industry has changed based on your opinion) it helps prevent history from repeating itself.

Though out history we have learned that if we do not keep the past in focus, we are doomed to repeat our past mistakes.

I think it is important to remind people of our mistakes of the past so that we do not repeat them., so long as we dont try to convince people we are still living in the past.

Also if in fact the industry has changed they should have no fear of people like us telling what thought reform and behavioral modification was like in the past, as long as they are not continuing the same methods today.

Agreed.  I dont think the programs have a problem with everyone talking about mind control and lobotomies etc because it doesnt effect them.... but this information makes fornits look very foolish to parents reading here.  Most are new to the industry but most know enough to not buy into this type of hype and it only serves to hurt fornits in the long run.  Current information is what is needed.



...

[Anne Bonney]

I think it is important to remind people of our mistakes of the past so that we do not repeat them., so long as we dont try to convince people we are still living in the past.

The programs are so we're here to make everyone aware of where they got the basic, fundamental techniques.

Agreed.  I dont think the programs have a problem with everyone talking about mind control and lobotomies etc because it doesnt effect them....

There you go again putting words in my mouth.  When did I ever say anything about lobotomies???  Other than maybe suggesting you've been a recipient of one.

but this information makes fornits look very foolish to parents reading here.  Most are new to the industry but they know enough to not buy into this type of hype and it only serves to hurt fornits in the long run.  Current information is what is needed.

Awww how sweet.  Don't you worry your pretty little head about what parents think of "us".  

 :roll:  :roll:


Here's some current info on a program....

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=24430

Being a product of a hellish 1 year stint in a rehab as a teenager, I am on the lookout for "programs" that say they want to help with "troubled teens". I haven' t posted in this forum for a long time, but thought that I would tell you that the other day I was in Dahlonega with a friend of mine doing some shopping and I said, "lets go for a little ride in the woods". lol
We drove to HLA and I drove right into the place. I didn't realize how far back it is in the woods (never saw this lake) and how close it is to a military training base. Anywho, drove right into the grounds like I owned the place, didn't see a soul around. Took a right turn next to what looked like the admissions building and drove along what looked like the dorms (they all looked like they weren't being used). Got to the end of the road and had to make a u-turn (not what I wanted to have to do) and head back toward the admissions building where I saw about 15 people standing in the road looking at us. Ok, shit time! LOL I concocted this story (so that I wouldn't be charged with tresspassing) about how my 15 year old son is really needing some kind of help because he is always in trouble. And that I had heard about this place and thought that I would take a look at it and see what it looked like (innocent enough right?). I'll be damned, after about 30 minutes of listening to their BS about how great this place was and them trying everything that they could think of to get me to go into the admissions office, I bolted out of there.

WOW I can't tell you the feelings that came over me as I was sitting there listening to them. I felt like I was 15 again and back in the program. That just shows you, they still use alot of the same tactics that they were using back then.

Well, that was a little long, sorry. But I thought that I would share that.

Nicole

Same shit, different wrapper.

[TheWho]

I think it is important to remind people of our mistakes of the past so that we do not repeat them., so long as we dont try to convince people we are still living in the past.

The programs are so we're here to make everyone aware of where they got the basic, fundamental techniques.

Agreed.  I dont think the programs have a problem with everyone talking about mind control and lobotomies etc because it doesnt effect them....

There you go again putting words in my mouth.  When did I ever say anything about lobotomies???  Other than maybe suggesting you've been a recipient of one.

but this information makes fornits look very foolish to parents reading here.  Most are new to the industry but they know enough to not buy into this type of hype and it only serves to hurt fornits in the long run.  Current information is what is needed.

Awww how sweet.  Don't you worry your pretty little head about what parents think of "us".  

 :roll:  :roll:


Here's some current info on a program....

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=24430

Being a product of a hellish 1 year stint in a rehab as a teenager, I am on the lookout for "programs" that say they want to help with "troubled teens". I haven' t posted in this forum for a long time, but thought that I would tell you that the other day I was in Dahlonega with a friend of mine doing some shopping and I said, "lets go for a little ride in the woods". lol
We drove to HLA and I drove right into the place. I didn't realize how far back it is in the woods (never saw this lake) and how close it is to a military training base. Anywho, drove right into the grounds like I owned the place, didn't see a soul around. Took a right turn next to what looked like the admissions building and drove along what looked like the dorms (they all looked like they weren't being used). Got to the end of the road and had to make a u-turn (not what I wanted to have to do) and head back toward the admissions building where I saw about 15 people standing in the road looking at us. Ok, shit time! LOL I concocted this story (so that I wouldn't be charged with tresspassing) about how my 15 year old son is really needing some kind of help because he is always in trouble. And that I had heard about this place and thought that I would take a look at it and see what it looked like (innocent enough right?). I'll be damned, after about 30 minutes of listening to their BS about how great this place was and them trying everything that they could think of to get me to go into the admissions office, I bolted out of there.

WOW I can't tell you the feelings that came over me as I was sitting there listening to them. I felt like I was 15 again and back in the program. That just shows you, they still use alot of the same tactics that they were using back then.

Well, that was a little long, sorry. But I thought that I would share that.

Nicole

Same shit, different wrapper.

Dont be so paranoid, Anne, no one was putting words in your mouth,  That post was directed to "Botched".  I think it is important how parents view fornits if they are some of the people we are trying to reach and I think they are.
If your only intention is to use fornits as a dumping ground for your anger and hatred then shame on you... many of us here are trying to make things better for the kids, you had your chance to straighten out and you blew it, lets try to help some other people out for a change.



...

[Anonymous]

Trying to "help the kids," Who?  Please, you fucking jackass.  You are here for the sole purpose of propmoting programs, no matter how abusive they are, and to bash survivors of program abuse.

Who are you to say Anne or anybody else "blew it"?  YOU blew it.  YOU failed in raising your child, not Anne.  Every time you point the finger you only indict yourself.  

You were a rich kid, given everything you ever had, given a trust fund, handed a job.  What the fuck do you know about ordinary people?  Even after being spoon fed life in it's most easily digestible form you SCREWED UP YOUR KID THEN SENT HER AWAY TO AN ABUSIVE SHIT PIT to be dealt with at the hands of a career child abuser, Rudy Bentz.

YOU blew it, Who.  YOU'RE the loser around here, not Anne.

[Anne Bonney]

Dont be so paranoid, Anne, no one was putting words in your mouth,  That post was directed to "Botched".  I think it is important how parents view fornits if they are some of the people we are trying to reach and I think they are.
If your only intention is to use fornits as a dumping ground for your anger and hatred then shame on you... many of us here are trying to make things better for the kids, you had your chance to straighten out and you blew it, lets try to help some other people out for a change.



...

Oh bite me you pathetic simp.   You are not part of this "us" you keep referring to.    I've been here for a helluva lot longer than you.  I've got a boatload more experience (direct, which you have NONE of and indirect) with this shit than you and I was around for damn near the inception of Fornits.  You have no idea what I have or have not done, save for what I've let you know.   You're just along for the ride.