Wilderness Having a Rough Time Lately

[Anonymous]

If a program as reputable as outward bound admits that help is so difficult to access that on the ground staff are having to administer a pretty hard core drug like morphine to a kid and splint a break themselves then this really indicates how many dangers there are. Your post had made me think that even if an untroubled kid wanted to do outward bound I would be thinking twice.

It all depends on where you are. there are certain expeditions which only last a few days, or are in easily accessable areas. every expedition has it's own unique risks. no matter where you go, the wilderness can be an unforgiving environment. unless you're ready for it, you simply shouldnt even bother.
morphine or other painkillers are always a good idea to bring on longer expeditions in more remote areas. BTW it's not a "hardcore drug", your using weasel words. Its standard practice to be treated with an opiate immediately after a fracture. the e.m.s usually administers hydrocodone or oxycodone for this occasion, which is actually more powerfull than morphine. i really doubt it's policy to bring it, but alot of people bring it just in case. you never know - you could trip and break your spine, impale yourself on a tree limb, shit happens, and since an ambulance cant be around to administer first aid, the counselors need to know how and be prepared to do it.

ozgirl, i think you're at risk for becoming a helicopter parent. if an UNtroubled kid in good physical condition WANTS to go, you should most definitely let them. Kids are put themselves in more danger playing football or skateboarding than they do anywhere in the wilderness besides the most extreme environments. you must always be prepared for the worst, but never expect it to happen or else it will.

[Ursus]

Usually the kids get pushed and they turn out fine. if no one is there to push them, they may never realize that they are able to do something. when they complain and get pushed, but pull through and make it they feel an overwhelming sense of accomplishment.

What is called "pushing" by Outward Bound, at least by its original incarnation, is a hell of a lot different than "pushing" according to what a lot of programs out there these days effect.  If you want kids to derive some life-changing benefit from pushing themselves to the limit, you've got to BELIEVE in them first.  Yeah, everybody's got reserves they don't know exist, but what's the worth of punishing them for not knowing them before they even start?  This is a really horrible mindset to go out into the wilderness with.  No wonder there are so many fatalities and mishaps.

The wilderness can be very therapeutic, for people who choose that experience. Lack of choice greatly undermines the value it. But knowing that you are going to be sent to a behavior mod facility right after wilderness is even worse -- it completely destroys the benefit of any personal insights you might have gained by spending some weeks away from civilization.

How did wilderness therapy ever get teamed up with behavior mod shitpits in the first place? They are almost opposites.

The world is so fucked up.  People will control you any way they can.  Again, this is so utterly depressing, I can hardly comment.  It's like someone slandering your mother's virtue.  I am so sorry these behav modpits have discovered this pulpit from which to screech their sermons, because they have utterly defiled something that I am now a bit reticent to admit to seriously caring about.  Is there nothing sacred anymore?

[Oz girl]

It all depends on where you are. there are certain expeditions which only last a few days, or are in easily accessable areas. every expedition has it's own unique risks. no matter where you go, the wilderness can be an unforgiving environment. unless you're ready for it, you simply shouldnt even bother.
morphine or other painkillers are always a good idea to bring on longer expeditions in more remote areas. BTW it's not a "hardcore drug", your using weasel words. Its standard practice to be treated with an opiate immediately after a fracture. the e.m.s usually administers hydrocodone or oxycodone for this occasion, which is actually more powerfull than morphine. i really doubt it's policy to bring it, but alot of people bring it just in case. you never know - you could trip and break your spine, impale yourself on a tree limb, shit happens, and since an ambulance cant be around to administer first aid, the counselors need to know how and be prepared to do it.

ozgirl, i think you're at risk for becoming a helicopter parent. if an UNtroubled kid in good physical condition WANTS to go, you should most definitely let them. Kids are put themselves in more danger playing football or skateboarding than they do anywhere in the wilderness besides the most extreme environments. you must always be prepared for the worst, but never expect it to happen or else it will.

My point was not that outward bound counsellors "push" hardcore drugs onto kids, it was that miles from any real help there is no choice but for staff who are not doctors to adminster a strong drug that is used usually in he context of an emergency room by qualified professionals. Tell me this- if you have to canoe for over 40 miles to get help because there is no way of getting access to emergency service helecoptors what do you do if a kid has an allergic reaction the morphine you have just administered? What is the precedure miles from medical help? I would doubt that most parents would be aware of an allergy to such a thing given that it is not standard practice to take it routinely so they would not mention it on any form.

Actually I am not of the wrap kids up in cotton wool school. When I was at school everyone one year did a 3 day expidition type thing. i hated it because I am not much for camping but it was not so remote that help was more than a few hours by vehicle away. Dinner did not consist of nuts and gain mix. Girls who could not handle the pace were in a slower group. One went home due to illness. Nobody was under any pressure to go on when exhausted.

 I have coached youth swimming for 10 years. Helecopter parents are the bain of most coaches lives so I dont intend to be one. I know that Pushing a kid to personal best can work wonders for their self esteem. But this is a process and usually at the higher levels a reasonably sophisticated one. Kids train regularly and are also taught to listen to their own bodies. if there is a medical issue that requires more than basic first aid the kid sees a real doctor. if the coach does not feel that a kid is doing their best usually it is handled on a one on 1 basis. But Wilderness forces a group mentality where if one kid slows down the rest of the group they are resented because somebody else literally has to carry their load. This to me does not build character, it turns kids into bullys or victims. So if stopping my kid from gaining this "experience" made me too strict then i would be willing to wear their resentment for a while.

[Anonymous]

It all depends on where you are. there are certain expeditions which only last a few days, or are in easily accessable areas. every expedition has it's own unique risks. no matter where you go, the wilderness can be an unforgiving environment. unless you're ready for it, you simply shouldnt even bother.
morphine or other painkillers are always a good idea to bring on longer expeditions in more remote areas. BTW it's not a "hardcore drug", your using weasel words. Its standard practice to be treated with an opiate immediately after a fracture. the e.m.s usually administers hydrocodone or oxycodone for this occasion, which is actually more powerfull than morphine. i really doubt it's policy to bring it, but alot of people bring it just in case. you never know - you could trip and break your spine, impale yourself on a tree limb, shit happens, and since an ambulance cant be around to administer first aid, the counselors need to know how and be prepared to do it.

ozgirl, i think you're at risk for becoming a helicopter parent. if an UNtroubled kid in good physical condition WANTS to go, you should most definitely let them. Kids are put themselves in more danger playing football or skateboarding than they do anywhere in the wilderness besides the most extreme environments. you must always be prepared for the worst, but never expect it to happen or else it will.

My point was not that outward bound counsellors "push" hardcore drugs onto kids, it was that miles from any real help there is no choice but for staff who are not doctors to adminster a strong drug that is used usually in he context of an emergency room by qualified professionals. Tell me this- if you have to canoe for over 40 miles to get help because there is no way of getting access to emergency service helecoptors what do you do if a kid has an allergic reaction the morphine you have just administered? What is the precedure miles from medical help? I would doubt that most parents would be aware of an allergy to such a thing given that it is not standard practice to take it routinely so they would not mention it on any form.

Actually I am not of the wrap kids up in cotton wool school. When I was at school everyone one year did a 3 day expidition type thing. i hated it because I am not much for camping but it was not so remote that help was more than a few hours by vehicle away. Dinner did not consist of nuts and gain mix. Girls who could not handle the pace were in a slower group. One went home due to illness. Nobody was under any pressure to go on when exhausted.

 I have coached youth swimming for 10 years. Helecopter parents are the bain of most coaches lives so I dont intend to be one. I know that Pushing a kid to personal best can work wonders for their self esteem. But this is a process and usually at the higher levels a reasonably sophisticated one. Kids train regularly and are also taught to listen to their own bodies. if there is a medical issue that requires more than basic first aid the kid sees a real doctor. if the coach does not feel that a kid is doing their best usually it is handled on a one on 1 basis. But Wilderness forces a group mentality where if one kid slows down the rest of the group they are resented because somebody else literally has to carry their load. This to me does not build character, it turns kids into bullys or victims. So if stopping my kid from gaining this "experience" made me too strict then i would be willing to wear their resentment for a while.

You have to be under the supervision of or a licensed MD to administer morphine. To do so as a private individual invites a buttraping so profound your great grand children assholes will hurt.

[Anonymous]

You have to be under the supervision of or a licensed MD to administer morphine. To do so as a private individual invites a buttraping so profound your great grand children assholes will hurt.

Programmies going to federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison for illegal dispensation of controlled substances?

The Irony Train ALWAYS wins!!

[Anonymous]

You have to be under the supervision of or a licensed MD to administer morphine.

Given the societal pressures exerted by the Drug Warrior system, even the doctors don't want to administer it, even when it is badly needed and explicitly called for.  I had morphine once.  I can attest to its wondrous efficacy.

My hand had been ripped open by an animal.  I called my doctor's office and told them exactly what happened, and spelled out that I knew there was "nerve damage," and that I needed go to the ER.  This was one of those piss-ass HMOs that won't cover anything unless you get their okay first.  I guess I sounded too calm over the phone, they wouldn't okay an ambulance.  I had to walk a mile to the doctor's office.  It was a brisk cold morning, and the next town over, but somehow I made it there.

I had to sit in the waiting room for 15 minutes, bleeding through my paper towels to the point where I was making a mess on the furniture, and the other folks were starting to move away from me.  Then I was shown into one of the examination rooms, given a bowl of peroxide placed on the countertop, and directed to dunk my hand in it.  The stuff immediately foamed up to a height of 10 inches and was downright hot.  The person left.

After about half an hour, another person came in and scolded me for "contaminating" the counter top with my bodily fluids.  I was also scolded for the inappropriate choice of dunking solution.  Another bowl, this time filled with Betadine, was placed on the examination bench, and I was directed to continue dunking.  At some point that morning, I managed to convince someone that I really needed the examination bench to lie down on.

Two and a half hours after arriving at the doctor's office, I was finally seen by a doctor, for about 10 minutes, with most of that time being spent by the doctor giving anatomy lessons to a resident and assorted other interested personnel whilst poking through the remaining moving parts in my thumb.  "Oh, we can't take care of that here, the nerve trunk has been completely severed.  See, here's what's left of it..." (poke, dig, poke) "And the tendon's pretty shot, too... Looks like that is cut about 70% through." (poke, poke, poke).  My hand was loosely bandaged up, I was directed to go to such and such a hospital across town (there was another one 2 blocks from this place, but I guess they didn't contract out to them), and sent on my way.

Yup.  You read correctly.  I could barely stand at this point.  After much haggling in disbelief, I was finally furnished with a taxi voucher.  At the hospital, I only had to wait about 20 minutes before I was given a bed, but another hour before the doctor got to me.  Again, more poking and anatomy lessons for residents and curious ER personnel.  Then, the doctor got on the phone with my HMO with the course of action he had planned for my hand.  I heard some exclamations of disbelief on his part, and much screaming about "THIS is what's wrong with the American health care system today!" and "this person needs to be operated on NOW! IMMEDIATELY!"  The phone was slammed down and he came back to my bedside.  "I'm sorry, they sent you to the wrong hospital.  I will call an ambulance to have you transported to the hospital they want..."  As it had now been about 6 hours since the mishap, and I had as yet to receive any kind of pain killer, he took pity on me and gave me a small shot of Demoral to tide me over.

It was an hour before the ambulance came (I guess my HMO only used a certain company).  By now, there was rush hour traffic to contend with.  While en route to the second hospital (the next town over), the drivers got lost.  It was another hour before we got there.  The Demoral had long worn off.  I felt every careening turn and screech of the brakes with great intimacy.

I had to wait about 30 minutes before I was seen, and then the circus started all over again.  This was a major teaching hospital, and there were several tiers of residents, each in turn taking my history, opening up my hand, poking and examining, closing it up again, each as if it had never been done before, let alone by someone who was on the other side of that curtain.  I guess they needed to practice "intake."

Eventually it was discovered that I had not been given any antibiotics.  I had long passed the point of remembering to ask for them.  The previous hospital had wanted to administer them but my HMO had objected, presumably to avoid confusion.  It had now been 10 hours since my hand was mauled.  While the IV was being set up to administer them, the Head Resident informed me that since so much time had elapsed sans antibiotics, they would be unable to operate on the nerve 'till the tendon had healed.  He directed one of the lower minions to clean and close up my hand, once again, and I began to get the impression that that was going to be it.  I asked about pain killers; he mumbled something about a prescription.  And then one of them jostled my hand for the last time.

My scream began low, almost a guttural moan, but became louder as time progressed and I began to experience the therapeutic effects from finally vocalizing my pain... No more Mr. Nice Guy, no more keeping a stiff upper lip, no more cooperation with the teaching of future ranks of M.D.s... I had HAD it!  And, man, did that feel good.  After about 5 minutes of sustaining bellowing, they finally gave me morphine to shut me up.  But it was several minutes more before they experienced any auditory relief.  I was that far gone with pain.

Jeff Beck/Going Down/1983

"the arms' concert@MSG 9th dec 1983.
jeff beck/guitar
ron wood/guitar
jan hammer/keyboards
fernand sanders/bass
simon phillips/drums
kenny jones/keyboards"

[Anonymous]

that sucks.

I have freinds that skate alot...and therefore get injured alot. each with a few broken bones under their belt. each time any of them had a broken bone, an ambulace got there within 20min and one of the first things they did every time (other than ask if they were allergic to anything, or have any serious condition) was administer a painkiller. but they also had good health coverage and their parents were able to pay for any other medical expenses out of pocket.

I know that in central maine, where i spend quite a bit of time every year, they give out painkillers (especially oxycontin) like candy. any complaint of pain and you'll get a script from most doctors. and it's so easy to get it illegally there too. if you have money, there is absolutely no reason you'd even need to go to the hospital if say, your back hurts like hell. just ask one of your neighbors for a pill.

I also spent some time in a swiss boarding school. the nurse had a ready supply of adderall, codeine, vicodin, and xanax at her disposal. it wasnt used very liberally, but they gave it out for only the reasons they are supposed to be used for without really asking any questions. I slammed my fist into a wall once and the nurse gave me vicodin for 3 days. when i was sick with bronchitis, i got codeine. when my cat died at home, i got a xanax, and if a teacher sent you out of class for drifting off to sleep, or need help studying....you get adderall.

There are a number of countries where you can get opiates over the counter. i know in most of the EU (and england untill recently) you can walk into a pharmacy and buy a pack of 30 15mg codeine pills for $5 -  just tell them you have an itchy cough. there are also a number stong opiate solutions and tinctures (some containing morphine) available by request with permission from a pharmacist. This means you can walk in and ask for it, and it's up to the pharmacist to decide weather or not you need it. they never give it out to people who dont need it - if you look the slightest bit like a druggie forget about it. you need to be in absolute dire need of it, and usually you need to establish prior trust and repore with the pharmacist. the other catch is that the codeine pills are usually so loaded with a second ingredient, someone with any tolerance would get sick before they get high. the solutions are also very tiny doses dissolved in a very large volume of liquid, usually also mixed with another ingredient which either tastes really nasty or will make you sick if you drink too much.

[Oz girl]

Codiene is an opiate? you can get headache pills here with codene in them but if it is a high dose you need a dr script. Morphine though is used in hospitals for pretty hardcore pain like cancer and broken bones. It would be considered pretty wierd for a non dr to give it to someone

[Anonymous]

yes, codeine is an opiate. it's one of the three main constituents of raw opium  - codeine, morphine, and thebaine. the U.S is one of the only countries where no opiates whatsoever are available over the counter, other than poppy seeds or kratom.

codeine is pretty strong depending on dose. i weigh 210 and 60-75mg can put me into a nod.

you live in canada, right? it think codeine is available there as tylenol3 its a acetaminophen500mg/codeine15mg mix. you can only take a few before you poison yourself with the scetaminophen, although you can easily separate the two ingredients. codeine dissolves in cold water, acetaminophen doesnt.

codeine is used for a variety of purposes - colds, coughs, sleep, along with pain. it's the world's best cough suppressant. DXM is the inverse of the codeine molecule, which is why it also works as a cough suppressant - although the two are otherwise unrelated drugs.

[Anonymous]

considered pretty wierd for a non dr to give it to someone

america is the only country where a pharmacist's job has been reduced to sorting pills and filling out paperwork. in most other countries, like france and england for example, the pharmacist has almost as much training as a doctor, although they study more chemistry and less biology, and dont spend as much time as interns/residents. they are trained to diagnose less severe illnesses, and distribute medication, although most medications still require a doctors prescription. Ambulace drivers in the u.s are also fairly pathetic - most other developed countries ambulance drivers have actual medical training, and dont just drive around and fill out paperwork. they can respond to a complaint, diagnose, medicate and leave the patient at home if it's something minor - no need to go to the hospital and spend 12 hours dealing with the beurocracy over chest pains. in the U.S, they cant do much except give you oxygen, cpr, defibrilate, and administer other first aid. they carry certain drugs too, but using one pill involves hours of paperwork so they tend not to do it unless, say, someone has a gunshot wound to the stomach.

[Oz girl]

you live in canada, right?
no Australia