Author Topic: The hearings have started, watch the hearings  (Read 33752 times)

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Offline TheWho

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The hearings have started, watch the hearings
« Reply #60 on: October 10, 2007, 05:40:33 PM »
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Guest""
"I'm sorry I don't have that information in my hand right now": Hahahaha. Moss looks like someone who's walked into a viper pit and is surprised to find vipers.

LOL.. i fucking loved that part.  Jan got Pwned... Her lawyer was constantly tapping her on teh shoulder... She was visably not pleased with the outcome. Clearly, what happened was not on her agenda. I don't think she was expecting what happened (and frankly, neither was I).

And don't think I wasn't making faces in the back during her testimony.. lol...  When Miller really started letting her have it you should have seen my grin.


I didn’t expect any of that myself.  I also didn’t realize that ASTART,GAO and the panel were looking towards NATSAP to step up and be the leader here and get these programs in line, curb abuse etc.  NATSAP has some big shoes to fill fairly quickly and to start exercising some power that they didn’t realize they had.  It will be interesting to see what they do with the power they have been given… I like the references to the “Good housekeeping seal of approvalâ€
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Offline psy

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The hearings have started, watch the hearings
« Reply #61 on: October 10, 2007, 05:40:53 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
So it seems they are going to help NATSAP gain some teeth
If you mean false teeth, after they get kicked out...  I doubt it.  The council was collectively VERY VERY displeased with NATSAP.  One or two might have been fooled by Jan's slick lines, but Miller was certainly not buying it.  What's really funny is the apparant self-contraidctions in Jan's own testimony (pointed out by somebody sitting next to me).  Yeah...  I was naughty.  I sat in the next-to back row (right in front of the press) and kept talking about the bullshit in Jan's testimony, including how I called Jan personally and was told that they did not accept complaints. (yeah... and I'm afraid I just had to mention that to several members of the committee after it ended... Sorry, Who...)

Oh.  And Deborah... Could you write up a statement about your experiences filing complaints with NATSAP and send it to an email address i'll send you.  (sign, scan, or I can send you a physical address to mail it to).  I'm going to contact the committee to find out where I can send my statement (on the same subject).  I would just love... love.... love... to see  Jan go to jail.

Blombro (good behavior) was there, Kathy Moya, Cathy Sutton, Maia Szalavitz, Phil Elberg, and a bunch of others (though those are who I had lunch with afterwards).
Quote
and recognize them as the front runners to hold these schools feet to the fire...good for them!!!
I've got no problem with holding their feet to the fire, as long as you're going to throw the rest in when you're done.  NATSAP is nothing more than an industry PR / Lobbyist machine.
Quote
It will give them cause to boot some of these schools out of their organization....  same thing happened to JCHAO which set them up as the gold standard at the time.

It was a little embarrassing for Kutz when he was asked several times for the number of deaths in facilities and he refused to give the number, just stated thousands were abused, whats up with that?


Oh.. Pfft.. His answer wasn't straight...  LOL... what about your friend Jan who couldn't answer simple questions without her lawyers tapping her on the shoulder...  and even then managed to apparently perjure her dumb ass... (I say apparantly because she may have been wording herself so that she wasn't "techincally" lying... I'll have to check the tape)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2007, 05:42:29 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Anonymous

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The hearings have started, watch the hearings
« Reply #62 on: October 10, 2007, 05:41:11 PM »
Well, the hearing didn't go my way, because Ms. Moss was able to walk out of the building under her own power.
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Offline psy

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The hearings have started, watch the hearings
« Reply #63 on: October 10, 2007, 05:46:30 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Reading TheWho's posts spawns a vision of Hitler's last days in his bunker, moving imaginary armies around while his city was annihilated above him.


That's the same analogy the method actor who played Miller Newton in Over the GW used.  That's why they changed it to "Hiller", a cross between Hilter and Miller (wasn't just to avoid getting sued).

Nah... The Who isn't freaking out yet (well.. at least not on page 3.. i'm reading)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline psy

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The hearings have started, watch the hearings
« Reply #64 on: October 10, 2007, 05:52:07 PM »
Quote from: ""ChristineMarie""
Is there a recorded version somewhere that I can watch? I missed it live, couldn't get the link to work for me.

There is a recorded version.  I don't have it (I was going to record my own but the rules on camera usage meant I couldn't if I wasn't officially "press") but it exists.  If somebody can get that to me, i'll put it online.  PM me and i'll give you my address to send a copy to.  You should probably send a copy to ISAC too.  Selby likes to have hard-copies.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline psy

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Re: Hearings
« Reply #65 on: October 10, 2007, 05:53:43 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest 4""
Was the lady sitting behind Ms Pinto with an ugly aggravated frown on her face Izzy?


I didnt see Scheff in the audience. I thought I saw Lichfield in the far back.


Lichfield was not there, and defiantly not in the back (where I was sitting)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #66 on: October 10, 2007, 05:59:25 PM »
Was the lady sitting behind Ms Pinto with an ugly aggravated frown on her face Izzy?


I didnt see Scheff in the audience. I thought I saw Lichfield in the far back.

Hey! I RESENT THAT STATEMENT! It was me, someone who is on your side.  (FICA) I can't help my ugly aggravated frown, I was sitting behind the jan moss lady and her henchmen were in front of me. :rofl:

Or maybe you were talking about one of the Natsap people who were directly behind Pinto... hmmmm
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #67 on: October 10, 2007, 06:27:25 PM »
So, what'd I miss? :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline psy

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« Reply #68 on: October 10, 2007, 06:32:58 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Hey Psy, who else was there?  Are you going to write a post recapping the hearing and your observations? How many survivors showed up?  Did you talk to the media and/or observe anyone else being interviewed?
Yeah.  I was interviewed by CBS.
Quote
Do you think Miller is aware that many folks were disappointed he didn't select even one token survivor to testify?
I actually think he may know that, however, as strange as this seems. The decision may have been the most effective one only since this is an initial investigation and parents testimony lends more credibility to the survivors.  My initial reaction is not to bow to, or participate in prejudice.  Were it my decision, I would have decided differently based on that principle, but I won't hold it against Miller because of the sheer state of bliss I am in after seeing Jan (literally) squirm.  Maybe tomorrow, but today I'm just not in a Miller criticizing mood.
Quote
There are no guarantees there will be continued hearings and frankly the early media coverage has been fairly shitty.  Where are the survivor stories?

Actually, they did announce not only more hearings, but the previously "secret" second investigation was disclosed (findings released early '08)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #69 on: October 10, 2007, 06:51:30 PM »
When will your interview be aired psy????  WHo else was interviewed with you?
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Offline ZenAgent

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« Reply #70 on: October 10, 2007, 06:59:20 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
funny how we see it differently, I saw George as unpleased that Kutz didnt have more facts in front of him and seemed to dance around some of the questions.... I do agree that they were not pleased with Moss's preparedness and wanting to take everything back to the board.

You see everything differently, since your head is buried in your ass.

Zen, you should choose a new avatar until you can get yourself more centered and maybe relax a little.  Try sharing your point of view instead of just attacking other people.  I realize the hearing didnt go your way, it was'nt an open hearing to everyone (albeit, only the first) but they are going to reconvene and discuss the open issues in more detail the next time.


You have a lot of preconceptions about Buddhism (and religion in general) that you keep trying to get me to conform to.  Quit.

Isn't it professionally unethical for you to be posting your crap on here?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #71 on: October 10, 2007, 07:06:27 PM »
There's one reason NATSAP was there. Remember this letter? They presented themselves as an authority over their member programs, basically lobbying for self-regulation. Everyone expected more for that reason. NATSAP set themselves up. And tripped and fell over their arrogance and ignorance.
NATSAP was shocked and sorely disappointed that they didn't receive the warm welcome they received in Utah and Montana when they involved themselves at the legislative level.... Too few industry supporters on the committee.

http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/nat ... iller.html
NATSAP Letter To Congressman Miller
June 1, 2005

Congressman George Miller
2205 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515

Reference: Legislation to Curb Child Abuse in Residential Treatment Programs

We appreciate the intent of the introduction of this legislation, but are concerned the excellent work being done by a large number of residential treatment programs will be impacted negatively if their interests are not considered.

The National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs ("NATSAP") was established in 1999 as a trade organization with a mission to serve as an advocate and resource for innovative schools and programs, which devote themselves to society's need for the effective care and education of struggling young people. NATSAP is now a thriving and growing organization with 142 member programs serving nearly 10,000 youth annually. Our programs are located in 31 states throughout the country and employ more than 5,000 adult staff, many with professional backgrounds and degrees, and all trained to care for troubled youth in ethical and responsible ways.  

One of the primary reasons our programs came together to form NATSAP was to [spin the illusion that our programs are more ethical than others and increase our profits] exchange ideas and come to agreement on reasonable and necessary standards of operation that would allow diversity of approach and yet provide the basic ethical position and framework of operation that would protect children and their families. Since NATSAP programs are located throughout the country and serve primarily private paying families, they fall under diverse licensure laws and regulation.

Our organization felt the need to establish a national consensus of ethics and standards that would define programs that offer quality care for children.
[Anyone who believes that should research NATSAP member programs, starting with Crater Lake http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#29235 ]
To this end we have established Ethical Principles, Principles of Good Practice, Supplemental Principles of Good Practice for Therapeutic Schools, and Standards for Behavior Support Management. We have enclosed a copy of each of these principles and standards. They can also be reviewed on our website http://www.natsap.org/overview/asp. All NATSAP programs are required to subscribe to these principles and standards as a condition of membership ["required" is too strong a word and misleading.], and we provide ongoing discussion and education about ethics and operations at our national and regional conferences.

In addition to membership in NATSAP, the majority of our members are licensed or accredited either by a state licensing board or by a national or regional accrediting agency. The national accrediting agencies include the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO), the Commission on Accreditation of Rehabilitation Facilities (CARF), and the Council on Accreditation (COA). We have found that there is great diversity in the structure and operations of programs throughout the country, and so it is important to allow for a variety of methods to assure that programs comply with high standards of care.

We also recognize that there are programs that are unaware or chose to ignore basic ethical standards and practice principles. We feel that such programs represent a minority of the many fine programs who serve troubled youth.  However, such programs are, of course, a risk to families, children, and to all of us who operate quality programs. NATSAP hopes to raise awareness for such programs, and try to include and educate such operators to improve their program quality and safety.

NATSAP programs, however, have legitimate concern that it would be very dangerous for either the federal or any state government to create prescriptive regulations without input and representation from our member programs. For example, our organization is quite concerned about your proposed legislation in SECTION. 303. Eligibility (b) (3) that states "In the case of each child who is a resident of the facility and whose domicile is another State, the facility meets the standards of such other State for the operation of such a facility, including any licensing standards". Given the vast array of administrative rules in different states such a clause would create an unreasonable administrative nightmare, and in effect allow the most restrictive rules in all states to dictate treatment standards for every state. [Isn't that a good thing?] We urge you to omit SECTION 303 (b) (3), and furthermore ask that you meet with representatives from our organization to discuss a variety of issues with your proposed legislation.

"We Urge you? We Urge you."

Programs that serve the private market are, of course, in need of clear operational standards, but such standards are in many cases quite different from those required for publicly funded programs in which the state has a fiduciary responsibility for both the expenditure of funds and often for the care and guardianship of the affected children. In the private pay market, parents retain the ultimate control to authorize, pay for, and select the type of treatment they feel most appropriate for their child.
It was clearly shown today that there is not enough transparency and accurate data regarding the industry for parents to make educated decisions. NATSAPs pissed that that might change.

Both parents and children in such situations still need assurance that the programs they choose and work with represent themselves honestly, and have practice standards that are within the range considered safe and appropriate by the profession. [By the 'profession'? You mean NATSAP? You mean self-regulation? I don't think anyone there would consider that a good idea.] It is in this spirit that NATSAP members have worked to create our Ethical Principles and Practice Standards.

NATSAP would like to offer our resources to work with you on ways to approach the problem of defining the proper role of government and regulation for the private pay market.  ::roflmao:: [Whadda think Miller thought when he read that?] We support an approach that does not suppress the diversity of legitimate methods  ::roflmao:: in our profession and yet protects the interest and concerns of parents and children enrolled in our programs. We would like to open a dialogue with your office in order to assure that any laws or regulations that you sponsor are crafted in a way that protects the legitimate interest of ethical programs as well as safeguarding the interest of the children and families we serve.

Thank you for your consideration.

Sincerely,
Jan Moss
NATSAP Executive Director
John Santa, Ph.D.
NATSAP Board President
« Last Edit: October 11, 2007, 04:44:24 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #72 on: October 10, 2007, 07:19:40 PM »
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
You have a lot of preconceptions about Buddhism (and religion in general) that you keep trying to get me to conform to.  Quit. Isn't it professionally unethical for you to be posting your crap on here?


No, this is Who's MO. Derailing threads he'd rather parents not read. If he can engage you or anyone else is senseless debate over the price of pork in China or how autos are made in Japan, he knows the reading audience will get board and stop reading the thread, especially when he can keep it going for page after page.... all in the name of 'free speech'. More like free program advertising/propoganda.
Ignore it, or c/p it into a new thread and address it there till the cows come home.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline lorrispickelmire

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The Prez
« Reply #73 on: October 10, 2007, 07:22:02 PM »
George Bush is not some dopey little pawn that let off his leash every once in a while.  The facility that I was in years ago has continued to operate because of much assistance from the Prez and others like him.  After several documented accounts of abuse he alligned himself with Roloff Evangelistic Enterprises and helped them to keep their doors open time after time.  He does not give a rats ass about protecting kids from abuse, and anyone who thinks he does is severely misinformed.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #74 on: October 10, 2007, 07:24:27 PM »
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""ZenAgent""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
funny how we see it differently, I saw George as unpleased that Kutz didnt have more facts in front of him and seemed to dance around some of the questions.... I do agree that they were not pleased with Moss's preparedness and wanting to take everything back to the board.

You see everything differently, since your head is buried in your ass.

Zen, you should choose a new avatar until you can get yourself more centered and maybe relax a little.  Try sharing your point of view instead of just attacking other people.  I realize the hearing didnt go your way, it was'nt an open hearing to everyone (albeit, only the first) but they are going to reconvene and discuss the open issues in more detail the next time.

You have a lot of preconceptions about Buddhism (and religion in general) that you keep trying to get me to conform to.  Quit.

Isn't it professionally unethical for you to be posting your crap on here?


Just a little ribbing, dont take it to heart....as far as it being unethical to post I would agree if I was part of the industry, but I am not.  I am a parent with opinions.
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