Heritage RTC in Provo

[Anne Bonney]

So does the therapist decide when they go home, OR IS THERE A LEVEL SYSTEM YES/NO? Yanno, the whole "fix problems that need captive fixing or send them home" concept of "ethical treatment"... *sigh*.

I'd really like an answer to this.

Wow lets slap everyone in the fucking face who was unnecessarily put through a program becuase CCM Girl thinks its "nipping it in the bud". You sound like a STRAIGHTling saying if theyre not a druggie yet, they will be!

My thoughts exactly.  They called most of the siblings dry druggies and they went in too.  Ya know, that 'bad attitude'.  THAT'S what gets most kids locked up.  Bad attitude.

I mean, never mind their rights being trampled, no due process, and nothing wrong with them except mommy and daddy think (possibly because an EdCon convinced them!) that the kid had to be there, they got something out of it, by golly, and years of isolation and solitude are A-OK and robbing years of their teens is now OK becuase CCM Girl in her infinite wisdom said they had something to get out of it and SOMEONE said they should be there, JUST incase.

Yep.

[CCM girl 1989]

Heritage had a level system. But, that did not determine when you went home by what level you were on. It did however give your therapist, and your parents an idea of how you were doing.

Levels were reviewed every 2 weeks when I was there. If you received a certain amount of points off, you could be dropped a level. Which in return gave you less privileges. If you were doing things right, such as keeping your areas in both your room clean, and usually you were assigned another spot in the house to keep clean, you were all good. It basically came down to managing your time, and helping out around the house. Kids who were never taught that at home, were now learning that. Yes, that's just plain mean, and abusive!!!!

Also, school was an important part of determining what level you were on. Being on time, because being tardy did get you points off. Mouthing off to the teacher could get you removed which meant points off. But, all, and all, it was pretty fair. Very much like a public school.

Now, please tell me how you would do it differently. See, for me personally, I don't see how you could run a school or a program without structure, do you?? There has to be some kind of system in place! Otherwise, kids would be doing whatever they wanted, and it would be a total disaster!

For those of you parents here on this board, who do have kids, who are anti-program, how do you discipline your kids at home? There has to be some kind of reward when they do good, and consequences when they do bad, right?

There are schools out there that use levels, combined with seminars, to move the students along towards a "program completion" but, once again not all schools/programs are alike, Heritage was not run in that fashion.

When it came to me, and my departure, from Cross Creek Manor, somebody called it in quotes "my exit plan", I thought they were making fun of it a little because it was my own personal plan of exit, with very little planning, and a lot of running involved! I checked in with my therapist a few weeks after my departure, and we worked out a deal along with my parents that allowed me to live on my own, and not return to CCM. It's not their traditional Exit Plan that the kids/staff/parents talk about at WWASPS.

I'm sure there is something I did not cover, that you asked me to, but this is very time consuming trying to keep up with all this. I am sure you can understand. I am not trying to avoid anyones questions, I just find it almost impossible to answer all of them! There's just not enough hours in the day.

[ZenAgent]

Now, think about this. You were a teenager. A program survivor. And a self-admitted "bad kid", but you approve of this program!Through rosy retrospection you're giving them an archaeo-diagnosis when you have no credentials to do so, no formal education at all, just your own program experience and the foregone conclusion that its a good program, so everyone there needed to be there, right?

Now, think about this. You were a teenager. A program survivor. And felt you were a "good  kid", but you Disapprove of this program! Through tainted retrospection you're saying the school was ineffective when you have no credentials to do so, no formal education at all, just your own program experience and the foregone conclusion that its an abusive program, so no one  there needed to be there, right?



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Are you done?  Well, allow me to retort.  First, I have to bust you again, like yesterday...you know, when we sorted out Straight, inc. from WWASP?  You had some difficulty there, my son.  You're welcome, too.

Niles wasn't in a program (that I know of) and is a person offended by the very nature of programming kids into gun-shy milksops.  Do all program kids turn out weak?  Obviously not.  PV rewards girls for being "snitch bitches" - they get props for calling confrontation groups on other patients for real or fabricated infractions.  It's a bully system, and the more aggressive sorts will prey on the ones they smell weakness in - pretty easy to do, since PTSD kids are mixed in with affluent crack heads.  Wonderful trait to encourage, don't you think?

[Botched Programming]

As far as it being pretty much like regular school... did they follow the same criteria as a regular school?? Were the grades broken up and did they use the same books that the regular school use?? And most importantly were the teachers state approved??

There is also a value of academics that has my curiosity. Did they have any type of sports that the kids could get involved in??

And as far as a diploma goes.... Was it an academic deploma or a GED???

[CCM girl 1989]

The grades were in a sense broken up because there was Earth Science all the way to Biology Classes, so whatever was next for you it went in order like grades. Math it was the same you had Basic Math, Statistics, and Algebra on up. English was the same way. There were all kins of computer classes, and drama classes, automotive class, etc.

There were real H.S. diplomas, and not GED's given out, if you happened to graduate while there. It was run very much like a public school.When I was there they employed about 15 different full time teachers. It must be more now though since it's grown.

[TheWho]

Are you done?  Well, allow me to retort.  First, I have to bust you again, like yesterday...you know, when we sorted out Straight, inc. from WWASP?  You had some difficulty there, my son.  You're welcome, too.

I must have missed that, Zen, I am well aware of the difference.  But then you are relatively new here so I give you a bye on that one.

Niles wasn't in a program (that I know of) and is a person offended by the very nature of programming kids into gun-shy milksops.

I know people who have no experience with programs whatsoever (like Niles)and they are not offended by kids who are gun-shy… I know people who are offended if you wish them a merry Christmas and I accept that…but I don’t think it is right to push their views on others.

Do all program kids turn out weak?  Obviously not.  PV rewards girls for being "snitch bitches" - they get props for calling confrontation groups on other patients for real or fabricated infractions.  It's a bully system, and the more aggressive sorts will prey on the ones they smell weakness in - pretty easy to do, since PTSD kids are mixed in with affluent crack heads.  Wonderful trait to encourage, don't you think?

Sounds like high school crap, happens everyday…..a good TBS with trained staff can eliminate this in a heart beat.

[Nihilanthic]

Also, school was an important part of determining what level you were on. Being on time, because being tardy did get you points off. Mouthing off to the teacher could get you removed which meant points off. But, all, and all, it was pretty fair. Very much like a public school.

Public school does not keep you captive and isolated because of mouthing off or being late, CCMGirl.

But then again, you claimed the level system had nothing to do about deciding of a child stayed or didn't. You did say that the school would often keep kids simply because the parent said so, however.

So, AGAIN, what decides when they get to leave, who decides, are there any actual criteria or diagnostics in the matter, and for that matter, do you or do you not admit children were kept there who honestly did not need to be there?

The other things you state which are non abusive but then try to attack us with an insinuation as being perceived as abusive by us - room cleaning, and what not -  is a fine and dandy means to argue and deflect, but the bottom line is being kept somewhere, captive, in isolation, in an institution, unless there is a justified need to be there IS abusive intrinsically, and you've yet to demonstrate that the program only kept people there who needed it.

Isolation and captivity isn't justified and isn't in the best interest of the child's development. Its the lesser evil vs letting someone who is honestly out of control hurt themselves or others. Children and teenagers who are not so out of control have no place in institutions, regardless of what their parents, edcons, or you, think.

[Anonymous]

Also, school was an important part of determining what level you were on. Being on time, because being tardy did get you points off. Mouthing off to the teacher could get you removed which meant points off. But, all, and all, it was pretty fair. Very much like a public school.

Public school does not keep you captive and isolated because of mouthing off or being late, CCMGirl.

But then again, you claimed the level system had nothing to do about deciding of a child stayed or didn't. You did say that the school would often keep kids simply because the parent said so, however.

So, AGAIN, what decides when they get to leave, who decides, are there any actual criteria or diagnostics in the matter, and for that matter, do you or do you not admit children were kept there who honestly did not need to be there?

The other things you state which are non abusive but then try to attack us with an insinuation as being perceived as abusive by us - room cleaning, and what not -  is a fine and dandy means to argue and deflect, but the bottom line is being kept somewhere, captive, in isolation, in an institution, unless there is a justified need to be there IS abusive intrinsically, and you've yet to demonstrate that the program only kept people there who needed it.

Isolation and captivity isn't justified and isn't in the best interest of the child's development. Its the lesser evil vs letting someone who is honestly out of control hurt themselves or others. Children and teenagers who are not so out of control have no place in institutions, regardless of what their parents, edcons, or you, think.

I'm so tired of your bullshit Niles! Get a life, you were never in a program, or had a kid in a program, so what the hell are you doing here? You don't even know what your talking about. :roll:

[Anonymous]

Hold the press here guys! Did Niles just admit that it's better for those kids who are clearly out of control to have them in a program away from other people they could potentially hurt?

[TheWho]

Also, school was an important part of determining what level you were on. Being on time, because being tardy did get you points off. Mouthing off to the teacher could get you removed which meant points off. But, all, and all, it was pretty fair. Very much like a public school.

Public school does not keep you captive and isolated because of mouthing off or being late, CCMGirl.

But then again, you claimed the level system had nothing to do about deciding of a child stayed or didn't. You did say that the school would often keep kids simply because the parent said so, however.

So, AGAIN, what decides when they get to leave, who decides, are there any actual criteria or diagnostics in the matter, and for that matter, do you or do you not admit children were kept there who honestly did not need to be there?

The other things you state which are non abusive but then try to attack us with an insinuation as being perceived as abusive by us - room cleaning, and what not -  is a fine and dandy means to argue and deflect, but the bottom line is being kept somewhere, captive, in isolation, in an institution, unless there is a justified need to be there IS abusive intrinsically, and you've yet to demonstrate that the program only kept people there who needed it.

Isolation and captivity isn't justified and isn't in the best interest of the child's development. Its the lesser evil vs letting someone who is honestly out of control hurt themselves or others. Children and teenagers who are not so out of control have no place in institutions, regardless of what their parents, edcons, or you, think.

Sorry, to butt in, but we have been over this several times, Niles, and high schools operate the same way.  I went thru 2 highschools and I had friends that went thru a different high school and I am familiar with the high schools my kids attended and everyone of the schools would place you in isolation where you had no contact with family or friends, no food or water, no talking, no staring out the window, going to the bathroom was at the discretion of the moderator/staff at the time. You would also miss you bus and have to walk 8 miles (in my case) to get home and that was for mouthing off once.  Then when you got home you got punished all over again, at least in the TBS when the punishment was over it ended, you didn’t have to deal with your parents punishing you again and placing you in isolation for a week or so and the TBS's typically would let you use the bathroom.

As far as being late goes, you were allowed to be late a few times (each school varied) but the same thing…right into isolation i you broke that rule too, so I guess I would agree with you on that one Niles, that public school may be a little more lax on the rules for tardiness.



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[ZenAgent]

Also, school was an important part of determining what level you were on. Being on time, because being tardy did get you points off. Mouthing off to the teacher could get you removed which meant points off. But, all, and all, it was pretty fair. Very much like a public school.

Public school does not keep you captive and isolated because of mouthing off or being late, CCMGirl.

But then again, you claimed the level system had nothing to do about deciding of a child stayed or didn't. You did say that the school would often keep kids simply because the parent said so, however.

So, AGAIN, what decides when they get to leave, who decides, are there any actual criteria or diagnostics in the matter, and for that matter, do you or do you not admit children were kept there who honestly did not need to be there?

The other things you state which are non abusive but then try to attack us with an insinuation as being perceived as abusive by us - room cleaning, and what not -  is a fine and dandy means to argue and deflect, but the bottom line is being kept somewhere, captive, in isolation, in an institution, unless there is a justified need to be there IS abusive intrinsically, and you've yet to demonstrate that the program only kept people there who needed it.

Isolation and captivity isn't justified and isn't in the best interest of the child's development. Its the lesser evil vs letting someone who is honestly out of control hurt themselves or others. Children and teenagers who are not so out of control have no place in institutions, regardless of what their parents, edcons, or you, think.

I'm so tired of your bullshit Niles! Get a life, you were never in a program, or had a kid in a program, so what the hell are you doing here? You don't even know what your talking about. :roll:

That's contemptible.  I do know what I'm talking about first-hand, as if it really matters in this discussion, and I'm telling you to shut up.

I wish more people who weren't directly affected by the industry knew about it and took an interest.  The whole business was unknown to me until a year and a half ago.  I'm glad Niles didn't go through any of this shit personally, and it's not a requirement for posting  here.  Behavior modification is screwed all the way around.  I always think of Alex in "A Clockwork Orange" when I hear "behavior modification".  I hate seeing the dog jump when her shock collar/electric fence goes off, and I certainly don't want to see the shit happening to a kid, it's beyond degrading.

Quit being so exclusionary, this is certainly not some cool club.

[TheWho]

That's contemptible. I do know what I'm talking about first-hand, as if it really matters in this discussion, and I'm telling you to shut up.

Thanks, Zen, for you efforts to change the landscape here on fornits..... I typically get so much crap from people saying I dont know what it feels like to be in a program and therefore my opinions dont count.  I guess if Niles (who has never been in a program and doesnt know anyone who has attended) can broadcast his opinion, the rest of us can.

[Nihilanthic]

Sorry, to butt in, but we have been over this several times, Niles, and high schools operate the same way.  I went thru 2 highschools and I had friends that went thru a different high school and I am familiar with the high schools my kids attended and everyone of the schools would place you in isolation where you had no contact with family or friends, no food or water, no talking, no staring out the window, going to the bathroom was at the discretion of the moderator/staff at the time. You would also miss you bus and have to walk 8 miles (in my case) to get home and that was for mouthing off once.  Then when you got home you got punished all over again, at least in the TBS when the punishment was over it ended, you didn’t have to deal with your parents punishing you again and placing you in isolation for a week or so and the TBS's typically would let you use the bathroom.

As far as being late goes, you were allowed to be late a few times (each school varied) but the same thing…right into isolation i you broke that rule too, so I guess I would agree with you on that one Niles, that public school may be a little more lax on the rules for tardiness.



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Public schools can't isolate you and deny you food and water, dumbass. Nor do they isolate you from your family if you are sick or have to go home. Do you mean in school suspension?

In school suspension does not compare to isolation a program forces upon people. In school suspension is being in a separate class all day from everyone else while you do your school work, though it tends to equate to busy work, wasting time, and getting behind in actual classes. You still have lunch, you still are able to have your needs legally met (unless someone wants a lawsuit) and you can go to the bathroom when needed unless they want a huge lawsuit as well.

And they leave at the end of the day.

They aren't locked into a room, sometimes bound, sometimes not, or forced into stress positions for hours on end, they're put in a class with other misfits.

In a word, "wow", Who.

Wow.

Also, points for "We've been over this" - we haven't. I love the condescension! Where'd you get that from... P.R. public discrediting 101 or just your own attitude? I'm starting to wonder just who exactly watches your posts.

However, in any event, isolation is not OK, program or otherwise, and you can't compare it to ISS.

[Nihilanthic]

Thanks, Zen, for you efforts to change the landscape here on fornits..... I typically get so much crap from people saying I dont know what it feels like to be in a program and therefore my opinions dont count.  I guess if Niles (who has never been in a program and doesnt know anyone who has attended) can broadcast his opinion, the rest of us can.

I can defend and protect and stand up for people without having to have gone through what they have myself.

It's called "empathy". Maybe you should try getting some of your own?

[TheWho]

Thanks, Zen, for you efforts to change the landscape here on fornits..... I typically get so much crap from people saying I dont know what it feels like to be in a program and therefore my opinions dont count.  I guess if Niles (who has never been in a program and doesnt know anyone who has attended) can broadcast his opinion, the rest of us can.

I can defend and protect and stand up for people without having to have gone through what they have myself.
It's called "empathy". Maybe you should try getting some of your own?

As can we all, Niles ...thats my point..doesnt matter if you are the Protagonist or antagonist...its you opinion (not anyone elses), remember that.



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