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Offline ConstentGardener

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« Reply #150 on: October 06, 2007, 12:10:33 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

In Cults in Our Midst, Singer writes about Large Group Awareness Training. Anyone who has attended a WWASPS sponsored (required) seminar will recognize everything described. They can learn why they were not allowed time to have a relaxed meal; or a good nights sleep; or to sit next to their family member. They will learn about the sly use of normal human psychology to manipulate them into agreeing with things that in real (pre seminar) life they would never have tolerated.

There is a reason why the program likes the "baking" comparisons. If you follow a recipe for a cake you will end up with a cake. If you stop half way through the process, you end up with goo.

With Brain washing, you also follow a recipe. This recipe, if seen through to the end, has a predictable result: a person who thinks they way they have been conditioned to think. It won't matter that they thought differently before. The recipe works if followed. They will come out of the process changed. And from the program's (cult's)perspective this change is all to the better. They have a bunch of well baked cakes who will trust the program with out question, and scoff at all attempts to tell them the program isn't their savior.

But as with the cake, if you stop the process half way through you end up with a kind of mental goo. The mind has been softened up and mixed up, so the old ideas can be brought into doubt an discarded, and the new ideas implanted and accepted. Then they are Baked till done with the new idea now a part of who they are. But if you stop the process half way through, you will have a mess on your hands.  The new self hasn't been constructed and baked.  The new ideas may have been implanted, but not yet fixed, baked in. People often fall apart (like a half baked cake) and it can take weeks and even months to begin to feel "normal" again.

It is in fact "brain washing". It produces a predictable result if the recipe is followed. It produces a compliant and irrationally devoted group of followers  It also produces mental breakdowns, but they are few enough to fall easily through that acceptable window of loss. For the most part, it works well enough, long enough, to be of great benefit to the Cult / program.

The program itself meets all the required criteria to be classified as a cult. Just as did the Seed and Straight before them; and Syanon before them.

People often want to equate "brainwashing" with things like education or religion or the military. In Cults on Our Midst, Singer tackles this issue head on, and explains why these legitimate organizations are not cults, and are not brainwashing people. Its a very good book. Anyone with an interest in these programs should read it. It explains a lot that seems otherwise incomprehensible.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #151 on: October 06, 2007, 12:39:10 AM »
Yeah i read cults in out myst. I accept that there is a case to be argued and that parents have taken what is known as that first fatal step. I can also understand that often they are sold on the phone whatever they wish to hear.
BUT it does seem that some parents are either not real bright to begin with "well my wife says my little girl is a monster so she must be right" "my parish priest seems to think my emo/goth/wicca daughter is possessed by the devil better not question god's mouthpiece" Others do seem to be searching for a punitive solution to their kid's problems. So they are sold exactly what they want. This may be because they make that first phone call angry after a difficult fight or a specific incident and buy in from the word go, or it may be that they are callous bastards. Although places like Aspen look nice the most current WWASP websites look pretty shitty. i can see how 5 yrs ago ttranquility bay looked lovely, but some of their websites now are quite open about how sparse and institutional the facilities are. So on some level the parents who are currently sending their kid to WWASP must be aware that this is not a place that is going to treat their kid fabulously
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #152 on: October 06, 2007, 01:30:01 AM »
Quote
So on some level the parents who are currently sending their kid to WWASP must be aware that this is not a place that is going to treat their kid fabulously
_________________


Oz Girl, the website for Spring Creek Lodge -WWASP might give desperate, worried parents the impression that this facility is a "fabulous" place for their out-of-control teen.

www.springcreeklodge.com

Spring Creek Lodge is advertised as a "boarding school" and the home page is filled with all the correct BUZZ WORDS for parents to hear:
SCL promises parents a "successful happy family again."
SCL promises the child will "make a complete turn-around from old behaviors into an impressive young adult."

Other Promises are made, using words like: "honesty...integrity...love of family."

The primary concern is: "Becoming a functioning family again."
Secondary concern is:   "Academics"

The Seminars for Students will teach: character...responsibility...accountability..honesty..integrity...family goals.

Parentaly Participation is presented as an INTEGRAL PART in the student's success:  Weekly Phone Calls - Parent Semimars - Support Groups

Although SCL is not therapeutic - a list of services is available AT AN EXTRA COST!!!!
Special Programs include: Adoption - Anger Management - Drug Dependency - Rape and Sexual Abuse.

WHAT'S NOT TO "LIKE" ABOUT SPRING CREEK LODGE?

And that's just reading the website.
Wait until some high-pressure, well-trained "CARING" sales representative starts talking to this desperate, upset parent....who may have a teen who is facing trouble with law enforcement, etc.
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Offline Che Gookin

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« Reply #153 on: October 06, 2007, 01:41:16 AM »
Quote from: ""ConstentGardener""
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

In Cults in Our Midst, Singer writes about Large Group Awareness Training. Anyone who has attended a WWASPS sponsored (required) seminar will recognize everything described. They can learn why they were not allowed time to have a relaxed meal; or a good nights sleep; or to sit next to their family member. They will learn about the sly use of normal human psychology to manipulate them into agreeing with things that in real (pre seminar) life they would never have tolerated.

There is a reason why the program likes the "baking" comparisons. If you follow a recipe for a cake you will end up with a cake. If you stop half way through the process, you end up with goo.

With Brain washing, you also follow a recipe. This recipe, if seen through to the end, has a predictable result: a person who thinks they way they have been conditioned to think. It won't matter that they thought differently before. The recipe works if followed. They will come out of the process changed. And from the program's (cult's)perspective this change is all to the better. They have a bunch of well baked cakes who will trust the program with out question, and scoff at all attempts to tell them the program isn't their savior.

But as with the cake, if you stop the process half way through you end up with a kind of mental goo. The mind has been softened up and mixed up, so the old ideas can be brought into doubt an discarded, and the new ideas implanted and accepted. Then they are Baked till done with the new idea now a part of who they are. But if you stop the process half way through, you will have a mess on your hands.  The new self hasn't been constructed and baked.  The new ideas may have been implanted, but not yet fixed, baked in. People often fall apart (like a half baked cake) and it can take weeks and even months to begin to feel "normal" again.

It is in fact "brain washing". It produces a predictable result if the recipe is followed. It produces a compliant and irrationally devoted group of followers  It also produces mental breakdowns, but they are few enough to fall easily through that acceptable window of loss. For the most part, it works well enough, long enough, to be of great benefit to the Cult / program.

The program itself meets all the required criteria to be classified as a cult. Just as did the Seed and Straight before them; and Syanon before them.

People often want to equate "brainwashing" with things like education or religion or the military. In Cults on Our Midst, Singer tackles this issue head on, and explains why these legitimate organizations are not cults, and are not brainwashing people. Its a very good book. Anyone with an interest in these programs should read it. It explains a lot that seems otherwise incomprehensible.



All of that reminds me of going to church. Same sort of deal different sort of lecture/sermon and location.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #154 on: October 06, 2007, 01:51:54 AM »
But what about the fact that it only contains 3 rustic looking buildings? there are not even any kids featured in its promotional material. No reference to their sleeping quarters, meals, classrooms? Looks pretty shitty from where i sit.

Look at red river academy. Appears pretty institutional.

http://www.redriveracademy.net/tour.html
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Che Gookin

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« Reply #155 on: October 06, 2007, 02:00:52 AM »
You are of the informed sort. Put yourself in the shoes of some parent who has had the not so gentle mental minstrations of a teenhelp/Sue Scheff style sales pitch.

*They are freaked that their kids are going to end up deadorinjail.
*They are freaked that more than likely little jonny is freebasing in the bathroom.
blah blah blah...

Then you get the hard sell from a rep who is supported by a glowing set of parent statements.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #156 on: October 06, 2007, 02:12:56 AM »
Oz Girl, I agree with you 100%.  I was just presenting how desperate parents might view this one website and be drawn in by the "buzz words" and all the "family unification...academic...boarding school" bullshit.  Then, actually think Spring Creek Lodge might be a good alternative.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #157 on: October 06, 2007, 03:38:36 AM »
i suppose I can see this if a parent is in a flat panic. i am also not of the view that brainwashing is impossible, or that ALL parents who go with these schools, (even the WWASP ones) are horrible or stupid. This is why i mentioned the apparent wider social factors that can play a part and the need to address them.

But I do think that many schools seem to market to *some* parents who just don't like their kids or are a bit on the lazy, abusive or stupid side when confronted with the fact that their kid is becoming less convenient with every year.
To illustrate this point I was once in a debate with Waygookin about whether this industry could take off here in a meaningful way. i argued that it was unlikely as the culture was less into zero tolerance when it comes to young ppl and that we are less religiously conservative. Most Australians are also too cheap to pay 40 k for a boarding school when the most elite in the country are less than 20 k.
He then asked if there was a particularly low divorce rate or if there is an absence of child abuse. i realised that that we are pretty much in line with you guys on these issues and that there are plenty of struggling blended families where somebody does not like step mum. it then dawned on me that if the price was right a bad parent in any country could get rid of their child.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline psy

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« Reply #158 on: October 06, 2007, 05:54:57 AM »
I agree with Buzzkill.  The parents are stressed out but that's not what makes them comitted to the program (it just gets them into the program).  The LGATs make them comitted to the program.  Not all programs do this but WWASP and CEDU clones definately do, and it's very effective... It doesn't just work on kids...  LGATs were designed for adults and you really have to research how they work to understand how effective they are.  If you've gone through one personally, you can probably speak of just how effective they are for most people (though I don't recommend going through to find out)
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Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
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Offline Karass

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« Reply #159 on: October 06, 2007, 09:25:31 AM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
On one hand if a kid is experiencing legal, mental health or substance abuse difficulties and there appears to be a lack of local social services or extremely heavy handed laws when it comes to petty youth crime and drug use then a program is going to be pretty tempting.
 Many parents have complained of these issues and I can see how jail is a realistic fear in states with an excessive approach to youth crime or drug taking. While i recognize that Jail is ironically better than most programs I can see how the word Boarding School is going to sound better than jail to any reasonable parent.

You have hit on exactly the issues that caring parents face. Zero Tolerance policies and heavy handed punishments create more fear for parents than they do for teens. No parent wants to see their child denied the ability to finish his or her education, or to start their adult life with a criminal record that limits their ability to find the kind of job they want. Although jail or juvie may be less abusive than many programs, that fact is not obvious to desperate parents who are looking for solutions, or looking for ways to get around the Zero Tolerance madness and the long-term consequences their children may suffer from being labeled a "bad kid" by the state. On the surface, a boarding school seems like a better alternative than juvenile detention, limiting educational opportunities and limiting job opportunities.

Quote
This is why any real grass roots action needs to also look at lobbying for a far more sensible approach to young people on a local level. A shift away from ridiculous zero tolerance policy both in schools and with regard to policing is a start. Greater genuinely helpful and accesable mental health and medical services would also help in reducing the sense of desperation (false or otherwise) that parents feel. if nothing else a good non hysterical local doctor can reassure a parent who suspects their experimenting child is an addict.

That will require a political shift. Zero tolerance comes from the conservative "get tough on crime" folks, who tend to be the same folks that don't want to spend tax money on things like mental health services for youth. Even good non hysterical doctors are getting harder to find. Many times, it's a doctor or therapist who suggests the idea of a therapeutic boarding school to parents. I suspect in most cases they know absolutely nothing about what these programs really do, but they suggest them anyway as an option for troubled parents.

Quote
Having said this, it does seems that some parents are far more willing to buy in than others. Some of the things that kids to get sent to the industry for indicate that there is either hysteria on the parents part, a step parent who wants them sent away cause they are not cute any more or a parent who expects total obedience form the kid. I can remember reading about Paul Richards in help at any cost. On one hand his parents did appear brainwashed but on the other they were pretty shitty parents to begin with. They appeared to pretty much decide that their son was an asshole at ten and spend his adolescence picking fights with him and punishing him. Programs are always going to market to such people. So the question is were they brainwashed or were they assholes who just found like minded freaks?


The only solution to this is civil rights for youth. If you are legally treated as someone else's property, and that someone is an abusive asshole, you're pretty much screwed.
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Like its politicians and its wars, society has the teenagers it deserves. -- J.B. Priestley

Offline LibertyBelle

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« Reply #160 on: October 06, 2007, 09:31:50 AM »
[/size]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #161 on: October 06, 2007, 09:37:16 AM »
Shit honey, I can barely read that... can ya make the font a little larger? Thanks!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #162 on: October 06, 2007, 09:51:45 AM »
:rofl:  :rofl:
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Offline psy

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« Reply #163 on: October 06, 2007, 11:04:18 AM »
Quote from: ""LibertyBelle""
Quote

The brainwashing is the key. If we could get the masses educated with regard to what mind control is - how and why it works - we could stop all these programs dead cold.
[/b]

Exactly!!!  Today, we are adult Survivors with the choice to "opt-in" and stand together against would-be abusers.  They've used tactical torture from wars past to divide American families in the name of family values.  

During the very moments we were ripped and humiliated until not even one tenuous shred of confidence remained, our parents were being charged up, like players on game day.  They were hungry to eviscerate their enemy.  

Their eyes gleamed with excitement as they delivered the final, devastating blows via microphone in a room full of hundreds each week.  I find it ironic that we were forced, in the face of that hatred, to say the one thing we so desperately wanted to hear from them: I love you.  

These programs exploited our families by first feeding on their love and concern for us before twisting it into anger and cementing the great divide.  Once divided, they bled the insurance dry; and stole every penny we were "worth".  They continued to rob me of a trusting relationship with my family, my education, relationships with men and my self-esteem.  

I live with an indescribable rage against the injustice of it.  My family lives with the guilt of hurting me when they thought they were helping.  This experience also gave me the gift of knowing my own unwavering strength; I will no longer be silenced.
 
Our individual voices are no longer an occasional errant whimper easily justified by adolescent rebellion.  We are a large group of organized, intelligent adult Survivors whose collective voice calls for justice.  We can serve as spokespeople for both the children and the parents, encouraging them to unite.  We seek to heal, not hurt.  We seek to love, not hate.  
:tup:
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Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Carey

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« Reply #164 on: October 06, 2007, 11:17:04 AM »
Quote
The brainwashing is the key. If we could get the masses educated with regard to what mind control is - how and why it works - we could stop all these programs dead cold.


The brainwashing is the key - for the kids.  I think that is exactly what some parents and the conservative party is looking for.  They don't think there is anything wrong with brainwashing kids who are on destructive paths.

Psy, you say you support Buzz.  I think Buzz probably really believes she was brainwashed, even though she said she never went to one of the LGAT seminars and, has no first hand knowledge of what goes on in one.   I think Buzz was just easily influenced.  

Can the argument be made that Buzz must have also been brainwashed by Scheff?  Buzz spent many a post trying to prove me wrong about my beliefs about Scheff.  Actually Buzz was Sue's main supporter at the time and she was the main one posting at the time and trying to prove I was wrong about Scheff.  All I was trying to do was to warn parents about Scheff.

If you look back now, you will see that Buzz has deleted all of those posts she wrote in support of Scheff.  Why?  Is she no longer brainwashed?  I guess if you want to say she is no longer under the influence of Scheff, that would be more applicable way of saying it.  But would it be applicable to say she is no longer brainwashed by Scheff?

Was Buzz brainwashed about ALA and Craig Rogers?  She posted in support of him - ALOT.  She even tried to start a forum for him on the ALA website.  She was an outspoken advocate for ALA.  She was promoting ALA.  Why do you view ALA differently than you do other programs?  Is it because Buzz proclaims it to be an ok place.  Is it because her son claims it to be an ok place.  He worked there just like Ashly worked/works at Harbor Oaks.  Buzz's son says ALA is ok and Ashlyn says that Harbor Oaks is ok.  Why would you view ALA any differently than you do Harbor Oaks or Whitmore?  There has been controversy in the past with Craig Rogers.  He has had a program in the past with problems.

Psy, I ask you these questions because I am trying to understand.  Also, I believing that brainwashing involves being held against ones will.  I don't think Buzz or any other parent who attends these seminars becomes brainwashed.  They can get up and leave at any time.  I think they are influenced by peer pressure and the need for a perceived outcome that is in line with their way of thinking.  

I am sure that this post will piss some people off.  Please know that is not my intention.  Change and accountability go hand in hand.

I also want to make clear the fact that I don't dislike Buzz.  I think she has a good heart and good intentions.  I even think she had good intentions back when she was supporting Sue.   But I do think people who are easily influenced, people like Buzz, are the ones who are in danger of being manipulated by LGAT seminars and "self-proclaimed experts".  I feel for them and I feel for their kids.  But I don't think they are brainwashed.  

Someone who is brainwashed does not have a choice in the matter.  People who are being brainwashed don't have the option of getting up and walking out of the brainwashing seminar.

Maybe we are just splitting hairs here, but I think it is important to make the distinction between what these kids suffer from vs. what the parents suffer from.
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