How Do Survivors Feel About Their Parents?

[Antigen]

On 2003-09-07 08:41:00, KarenZ wrote:


You ex troubled teens - would knowing a dog was being brought in make a difference? Would you not bring the drugs home -  cut back on their use, if you knew mom and dad were going to find and destroy it? Its the monetary loss I'm thinking of - would you spend the money on pot or whatever, if you knew some dog was likly to be brought in and sniff it out?

Oh brother! So you think it's a good idea, then, to enlist as a soldier in the War On Drugs after your kid has already signed up for the other side?

Remember that when I was supposed to be approaching and then going through normal teen angst, instead I was in a Seed family. That meant more than weekly open meetings. It also meant no expectation of privacy, never a chance to make a friend or anything without Mother nosing around trying to find fault with them. If I happened to be out walking or bike riding somewhere and ran into another Seed sibling, it was a panic because they might tell some innocent detail that would wind up being the seed for one of Mothers paranoid and most unpleasant flights of fancy.

So I can't tell you too much about how a normal kid would respond. But I can tell you from first hand experience what it was like trying to grow up under a microscope like that.

No, I don't think that kind of stress is going to lead a kid to less or less abusive drug use. It will, however, lead them to spend more nights over at friends' houses, dread your coming into contact with their friends or their friends families. It will embarrass and humiliate them and destroy any kind of trust that might be trying, against all hope, to take purchase on an agreement to not bring the naughty stuff around.

In the court of teenaged public opinion, bringing a detection dog into your home to try to trip up and indict your kid will certainly provide substantial evidence that you're unreasonable, paranoid, maybe vindictive and certainly not to be trusted. If your goal is to drive the kid away, emotionally and physically, I can think of no better plan.

Antigen: The Program was like an extension of her real, down underneath it all personality.

When you see people like that, RUN! Don't ever let those kind into your life ever!

This is just the sort of thing I'm talking about. You think there's some kind of God given moral imperative to make sure your kid is not getting away with any dissent in the drug war? You think that moral imperative overrides all other consideration?

Just bear in mind that Joy Margolis, a spokeswoman for Tampa-based Lutheran Services and former executive director of Straight, now runs a chain of adult care facilities that is notorious for scamming, abusing and neglecting their charges then drugging them to keep them quiet about it.

Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
Anonymity Anonymous

[anon]

[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 12:58 ]

[Anonymous]

On 2003-09-07 09:31:00, KarenZ wrote:

My house was the house safe from such inspection, and so I held a lot of stash for friends whos rooms weren't so 'safe.'

Exactly. Being hypervigilant with your kids is a powerful disincentive to their spending much time or investing themselves much in the family home.

Geez - you really think it would be as negitive as that?

Well, I see two scenarios. If the kid has a stash, which is illegal, given your recent history, it's not at all out of line for a reasonable person to assume that you might just turn them over to Jonny Law if you catch them.

If the kid is honoring your wishes already by keeing his stash elsewhere or by just abstaining or smoking OP (other people's), then the minute the you call for the search dog, you've demonstrated that you don't trust the kid. So where's the reason to honor any agreement with you or trust you with anything? You're just going to accuse and surveil them anyway.

[Anonymous]

Is it okay to lower your standards and compromise your own values?  If your standards and values are the same as your kids, then there is no need to hold them to anything higher.

Don't schools regulary do "locker" checks for illegal items?  Then what would hold a parent back from being a parent at home?  It can be a Catch 22 - no illegal items allowed in the home can enable them to find someone else whose parents do allow it in their home...so maybe that's where they will spend their time.  What's illegal?  Keyboard cleaner is a huffing agent, as are many household items.  The police tell us we need to be better parents, but policing at home can and often does make it worse.

I have no problem with other people think I SHOULD do, I follow my instincts. What happens if you do find illegal substances or items.  What is your follow through? Do you have the guts to follow through with any consequence given?  Is there a consequence a all?  

Times HAVe changed.  Instead of the parents being parents, the kids are now controlling the household.  If the parents haven't shown their values to their child, the child may assume there are no values, no boundaries, no standards to live by.  How many parents of troubled teens have ever shared their individual values? Even two parents may have very different values.  Are you a role model?  Being on the same page can be difficult to start after the contention has begun, but not impossible.  

Karen - do what your gut is telling you. If it doesn't work, then learn something from it.  If it does, great!  Is it about "control?"  Or, is it about being a parent?  Know when to be a parent and when to be a friend.

[FaceKhan]

I think that when parents are honest with their kids and respect their privacy and their decisions and be open about what they have done and the mistakes they have made the kids will usually follow their parent's example.

Using myself as an example, neither of my parents smoke and from a very early age they expressed their disgust with it and how they had tried it and not liked it. They did not police me or give me dirty looks when I hung out with smokers and whoopee even though probably all my friends were smokers at some point (more than half have quit) I don't smoke. Its the parents who suspect their kids all the time and moralize and yell instead of discuss that send their kids off without any good reason not to get high.

If you treat your kids like criminals they will behave that way.

Personally my goal in this cause is not to close down WWASP and the other torture centers but to ban the entire industry and secure legislation that would make it illegal to commit anyone to any form of psychological treatment against their will without due process and the opportunity to present witnesses in their favor as well as a very high bar of accountability in any mental health or treatment facility that houses people against their will.

The industry as a whole is the problem, not just WWASP or CEDU. I feel that inevitably there is gonna be a crisis within the next 2 or 3 years, with this industry. Particularly with WWASP which is already beginning to crumble. At the rate things are going it is only a matter of time before a large overcrowded brutal facility causes an immense disaster with many deaths. A large riot where the staff is executed (because they fucking deserve to die) or more likely an outbreak of disease or food poisoning that kills several inmates.

It is gonna happen, do you want your kid there when it does?

[Anonymous]

Let's just look at this logically for a second.

If a teenager is having a problem with alcohol or other drugs, it's causing difficulty in his life.  So, grades will be dropping, friendships broken, irritability will be common, money will be needed and there may be problems obtaining it, fights with family, etc. etc.  All of these are visible *without any need for snooping*

If there *aren't* any such problems, then the kid is obviously either not using or using in such a fashion that it's not causing problems.  Now, you say, but it might be about to cause problems...

Statistically, this is unlikely.  8 of 10 people who try *heroin* don't get hooked-- read the research for yourself if you don't believe me.  If you are talking pot or alcohol, while many kids experience a period of excess, only 3-5% of potsmokers ever develop addiction and 5-10% of drinkers become alcoholics. Again, just look carefully at the NIDA statistics and the Household Survey on Drug Abuse to work this out.

So, you can try to "prevent" experimental drug use from getting worse by artificially creating negative consequences for them--but this has serious drawbacks.  First, if they haven't experienced negativq consequences of the use itself, they are going to be hard to convince that they have a problem.  Second, if you are obviously inflicting these consequnces on them yourself, they are going to think  *you* not the drugs are the problem.  Third, if you send them off to treatment, they are going to spend their time with harder core drug users and learn more than you want them to know about where to get harder drugs and how to use them.  They will also learn that all of the kids there survived this harder core use-- so they will be harder to convince that negative consequences are common.

OK, so using testing to try to find something early and prevent it getting worse is a bad plan.

What if you do have a kid who is experiencing negative consequences, wasted all the time, OD'ing, etc.?

Well, in this case, addiction is a disease.  It's not something you can *punish* away.  People who use heavily despite negative consequences are almost all trying to flee emotional pain.  Creating more pain is not going to stop them.  It's just going to give them another reason to use.

What you want to do instead is create an atmosphere of trust and empathy where the child who feels low will turn to you-- not drugs-- when he needs help with emotional pain.  Or, if he's already turned to drugs first, where he will come to say 'I'm in over my head-- help!'

Then, you've got the ideal client for drug treatment-- someone who knows they got a problem and wants help with it.  You need no force or confrontation or restraint with such people.  What you need to do is give them hope and encouragement that life drugfree will be better than life struggling with drugs.  And that is hard work-- but you see it done in 12 step programs, in cognitive-behavioral therapies, in motivational interviewing, in harm reduction treatments:  in short, it's what good drug treatment is all about.

[Anonymous]

Karen, why not turn your love and compassion for animals into something that benefits adults and childen with special needs? Such as training dogs to become the "eyes and ears" for the sight/hearing impaired?  Or arranging to bring pets into nursing homes, children's hospitals, rehab facilities, etc.?  Seems to me this would be a win-win situation and that your community would be quite receptive and willing to assist with donations to help defray your expenses.

 :smile:

[Anonymous]

"Then, you've got the ideal client for drug treatment-- someone who knows they got a problem and wants help with it."

In an ideal world - but when the drugs are "talking," not the kid, it's not until the parents SEE there's a problem that it can be dealt with.  Yes, most kids grow out of it, graduate high school and go on to be successful. Many kids with AD/HD may not without cognitive education and a way to know they are not bad kids.  THey won't get that in the public schools and other mainstream schools.  Self-medication is "the norm." They've been living with their "difference" for all their lives and it takes time and structure to change that thinking to learn to work with it instead of against it.  AD/HD meds cover it up, with less than consistent results.  I know.  I'm an adult with it and it took a lot of consistent, behavior change to where I am.  Parents without the knowledge can do all the talking or policing they can, but it doesn't change our thinking patterns.   So far, the past 3 years, I can say I'm successful.

[anon]

[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 13:01 ]

[Anonymous]

F.K. mentioned smoking - we don't; and the son didn't either - until his Paw Paw died of cancer; Then he started smoking! I still don't understand that. I threw the cigarettes away when I found them; along with what ever pot I found. For the longest time, that was the only consequence - the loss of the product. We thought as tight with money as he is, he'd soon grow tired of throwing so much away, but it didn't work out like that. Oh well, it was a bad time, and its past now.
I do wish there was a way to really help families avoid so much heart break.

Karen,
What struck me was, "that was the only consequence". I could be off base, but it appears that he was distressed about his grandpa's death and looking for some escape from pain and/or maybe fear of death. He did what he knew to do to lessen the pain. Why would you persue "consequences" rather than helping him identify if the sudden interest had anything to do with some uncomfortable feelings? Seems that it was the perfect opportunity to have some dialogue with him and help him ferret out what was driving him to zone out. Maybe some counseling if he was open to it. I think there is a lack of ability with most parents, most have forgotten or never learned how to listen to their child.

My son went through hell when he returned from the Marine Military Academy. There were many nights that we were up at 1 or 2 am. He didn't usually directly ask for me to listen, he would ask me to scratch his back. If I had the attention, he knew and would go into it. This went on for 4 years. During which time he quit school, worked numerous jobs, smoked pot and drank, racked up a DWI and a DUI. Neither of which I knew about until the police dept called to say he'd missed a court date. He was unemployed at the time and had no means to pay the tickets. He had hit bottom.

There were many times that I questioned allowing him to have the "social" consequences of his behavior, which he truly wasn't in control of. Many times I questioned my decision not to intervene, to incarcerate him. The truth is, I knew he had a good foundation, good street savvy, and I trusted him more than any complete stranger I might turn him over to. I also knew that he would have to make the decision to seek help, an important step to realizing he was making destructive choices that he wanted to change. If I forced him, I would be just another perpetrator. I waited until he hit bottom and in the meantime, found a drug treatment program unique to what the court would have ordered.

The program worked for him, mainly because it gave him time away and provided his real needs. He was 18 at the time and spent 9 months there. It was not a lock down, and rarely did anyone leave. The "consequence" for leaving was that you start over. No guilt, no shame, no extra fees. He might have left any other environment and suffered jail time instead. There was no limit on family contact. Food was excellent, supplements and saunas to aid with detox.
He was treated with genuine respect, and he didn't have to "admit that he was any kind of an "olic" everyday. I knew 12-steps wouldn't work either.

Parents are not willing to "risk" the natural or social consequences of their teen's behavior, so they intervene.

**As for training the support dogs for the disabled - that entails giving them up - and I'd rather not. I could, and I have thought about it - but for now, I'm trying to think of some way to work Conner.

Well, maybe Conner doesn't need a job. I heard about a program in Dallas, Tx that was in jeopardy of loosing funding. "At risk" youth are spending some time every week training dogs to help the disabled, and for competition, I believe. They get the muts from the pound. The teens love the program. Keeps them off the street and they are proud of the job they are doing. They enjoy developing a relationship with their animal and learning to train it. A win-win all around. You might enjoy something like that. You don't strike me as the police type. And parents can rule out drugs for the cost of a piss test.
If they are worried about being held responsible for their teen having pot or drugs in their house, I don't think that concern is legitimate.

I do think teens are invisible in society. There is just not enough opportunity for them to feel worthwhile. They do want to make a valuable contribution and feel a part of, and are capable of SO much more than society allows them to do. There aren't enough, or a variety of ways that teens can do this.
Deborah

[anon]

[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 13:03 ]

[Anonymous]

Antigen forgot to log in when she wrote:

On 2003-09-07 13:07:00, Antigen:

Don't schools regulary do "locker" checks for illegal items? Then what would hold a parent back from being a parent at home? It can be a Catch 22 - no illegal items allowed in the home can enable them to find someone else whose parents do allow it in their home...so maybe that's where they will spend their time. What's illegal? Keyboard cleaner is a huffing agent, as are many household items. The police tell us we need to be better parents, but policing at home can and often does make it worse.

Yes, the public schools have become more and more like prisons as the years roll on. When your parents told you to respect your teachers and follow the rules, they were not talking about what's going on TODAY in your kids' high schools.

Police have no business telling YOU to be a better parent! That's not their role. They're not trained to be parents, they're trained to take dangerous criminals, by deadly force if neccessary, into custody as an intake to the criminal justice system. Come to think of it, they don't get any special training in medicine or pharmacology, either. So why are the schools hiring them to teach a course on drugs?

Think over the advice the DARE cop and the Partnership give you. It's not about how to be  better parents. It's about how to be better police.

And no, Karen, that is not our primary job as parents.

[Antigen]

On 2003-09-07 17:48:00, KarenZ wrote:

I think in our case, my problem was trusting my son to much. I tended to confide in him and trust him as I would an adult friend. I think it was, at times, more trust than any kid can live up to - and that is fully my fault. I am afraid I inadvertently set him up for a fall, and I'll always wonder how large a part it played in his slipping down hill the way he did.

Karen, I haven't read this whole post yet but I wanted to respond to this before I forget.

I've come to the same conclusion. I can only plead ignorance due to the fact that I never had anything like a 'normal' childhood or high-school career. But I tried to deal with my daughter asif she were willing and able to think about things in the long term and from an adult point of view. I was telling her things and explaining things to her that she had NO interest in thinking about. She was always very polite to me and attentive, but she was really thinking about how fast she could get out and catch up with her friends before they left without her or something.

There are plenty of times when I should have been a lot more clever, kept my mouth shut for the moment and waited till she started to realize some of what I already knew. If I'd done that more, she would not have tried so hard to prove me wrong.

For three days after death, hair and fingernails continue to grow but phone calls taper off.  
-- Johnny Carson

[Antigen]

If you want to know what kids are thinking, listen to what they're listening to:

Linkin Park Lyrics

One Step Closer

I cannot take this anymore
I'm saying everything I've said before
All these words they make no sense
I find bliss in ignorance
Less I hear the less you'll say
But you'll find that out anyway
Just like before...

Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break

I find the answers aren't so clear
Wish I could find a way to disappear
All these thoughts they make no sense
I find bliss in ignorance
Nothing seems to go away
Over and over again
Just like before...

Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Break break break break break

shut up when I'm talking to you
shut up shut up shut up
shut up when I'm talking to you
shut up shut up shut up shut up
I?m about to break

Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Break break break break break break

shut up when I'm talking to you
shut up shut up shut up
shut up when I'm talking to you
shut up shut up shut up shut up
I?m about to break

Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
Everything you say to me
Takes me one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
I need a little room to breathe
Cause I'm one step closer to the edge
And I'm about to break
 

All our liberties are due to men who, when their conscience has compelled them, have broken the laws of the land.
--William Kingdon Clifford

[Anonymous]

On 2003-09-06 05:59:00, Antigen wrote-"Anon, you sound desperate. I get that. At least intellectually, I understood that pretty well back when I was the 15 year old in question. Now that I'm the mother and my kid is 19, I understand it from a first-hand point of view in full, vibrant and living color


Antigen, I WAS desperate, and tried everything here, ran out of options and did what didn't work over and over again - you know what they say that is?  Insanity!  So I went outside my community, for love of my son and to regain my sanity - I know, you'll debate that!  That's okay. My son is almost 19 now and my view is also in full, brilliant and living color.


Antigen: But, in your panic, you're overlooking a couple of very important things. First, WWASP (with the support of PDFA ads and other propaganda organizations) tells you that neither you nor your kid is capable of dealing with your problems. They don't know that and neither do you.


Wrong, Antigen.  They never told me I wasn't capable of dealing with my problems.  On the contrary, but I didn't think I was based on where we were. I was capable, but didn't yet have the knowledge (my words, not theirs.) I still don't know it all and he's been home over 2 years!



Antigen: Second, they tell you they can help. But the best evidence they can muster to prove their succes is to order parents and kids to write thank you notes as part of their 'therapy' and then to turn around and use those writings in their PR campaigns.


Yes, I think I remember someone saying they could help!  That's exactly what we needed!  Sorry, but they didn't have letters or thank you's from parents 4 years ago.  I spoke to several grads here.  Before you say it, they didn't receive money for this.  That I do know for sure.  I 100% DO NOT AGREE that parents be asked to market the program.  I want to make it clear that it should be a personal choice, based on a passion.  Not as homework or part of a seminar.  That's Teen Help's BS, not the schools themselves.  I can tell you I don't care for Teen Help in that respect.  They are NOT the program, the staff ARE the program - TH was there when I needed them and if I was ever lied to, I never figured it out!  



Antigen:How do you "learn to be a family" by severing all contact and communications with your family? How do you know Dad didn't hit the kid? It wouldn't be the first nor the last time an adult has kept a kid quiet through intimidation and character assasination. Ask anyone who's ever been diddled by a priest.


You say all contact and communication?  I had plenty of communication with letters in the first months.  Which, actually was the most communication I had with in the year or so prior! It got better as time went by.  His letters to me weren't monitored.  If they were supposed to be, they sure weren't doing their job.  He kept quiet about nothing that I could see. I had to use my gut feelings on what to believe or not.  He was never abused or starved, that I do know.  As for learning to be a family? The therapy calls, the parent seminars and then the parent/teen seminars we did together, the phone calls, more letters, home passes, learning to communicate, learning to let go, learning that life isn't fair. Learning that we each see the world differently, and don't always agree. YIPPEE!  Are we perfect?  Hell, no.  I'm pretty happy though.



Antigen: WWASP has drawn a line in the sand and instructed you to stand on the opposite side of it from your child. What If he didn't get better on his own? Then, when he's ready, he would have turned to the people he trusts. If you stick with the WWASP program, that's not going to be you. Sorry.

Okay, Antigen, maybe you thought my son was still there.  I was NEVEr asked to stand on the opposite side of my son.  I did that on my own, as well.  This program brought us to the same side - most of the time anyway. When we were at opposite side of the line it had everything to do with our own choices. He not only turned to me, he also learned to trust most of the staff and is still in contact with what he calls the most honest friends he's ever had.  Win/Win/Win.  



Antigen:What if, like so many others, WWASP leaves him worse off than he was to begin with? Who does he turn to then? He can't even talk to you about it because you won't believe him. You'll just call it lying manipulation and have him sent back to his abusers.



Who's worse off?  He's the same young man, a little older, wiser, minus the attitide and drugs. I don't know any graduates that are worse off, in fact they are awesome, still teens, still challenged in life's choices, honest, fun, some are in college, some are working, some are married, some are still not sure what they want, but are nothing like they were when they were admitted, in a good way!  I also know some that came home early, but not because their parents thought they were being abused, they could no longer afford it and most are doing great.
 
I have one mom that has called me ever since she brought her son home a year ago, because she believed his abuse stories.  He laughed at her one day and told her the truth.  I never asked her why she didn't send him back, that's none of my business.  


Antigen:Can't you see how you're being scammed here?


Maybe I'll figure it out some day - if it's a scam, then it's worked in a good way, for both of us.    
[/quote]