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Offline Firebird81

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To those who find this forum...
« on: May 02, 2007, 07:07:55 PM »
I know there are many people who rely on the internet today to research organizations they may wish to have dealings with, either by supporting or, in the case of Teen Challenge, more commonly, in  a search for help for themselves or a loved one.

I think it is very important to make all of you aware of the two most common motives people have for attacking Teen Challenge. The first is former students who dropped out of the program. One such student now runs a website claiming to expose Southern California Teen Challenge---the very center I graduated from and the very district I worked for as a student advisor for 5 years. Many dropouts do leave angry. Change is hard. And Teen Challenge sets very high standards for success.

The second and uglier motive for attacking Teen Challenge is a relatively new one. And it is politically based, driven oftentimes by left wing organizations and special interests opposed to Bush's faith-based initiative. Teen Challenge is the primary target of these people for two reasons, neither of which are Teen Challenge's fault. First---It was an incident in Texas where certain entites took it upon themselves to try to run TC out of the state. George Bush was Goverenor and stepped in to protect the program. Why? Did Bush stand alone? Absolutely not! Most texans knew Teen Challenge's reputation and exemplary record of helping addicts and found it absurd that such a great program that has done so much good could have it's doors shut because of some legal loophole.

This incident is what inspired Bush's federal faith based plan. Secualr and staterun programs are huge failures at rehabilitation, yet Teen Challenge showed much higher successes. Of course, since TC was the very basis for Bush's program ( not a RECIPIENT. TC would not qualify for funds thru this initiative!), political opponents proceeded to tear apart the initial study conducted on TC. The resulting hoopla has led to the usual nonsense and blogs and expose's--you name it. Of course, several other studies have also been conducted and repeatedly show 65-70% cure rates for graduates of the program. And, contrary to what you read here, a far higher percentage of people graduate TC than any other program I know of.

There is a third motive and that is one of anti-Christian sentiment, particularly anti-pentecostal sentiment. The reasons behind this are due completely to religious differences of belief.

Teen Challenge is largely run by former addicts. The programis based around not only introducing one to Christ, but teaching Chrisitan principles to be applied to daily life. It's not for everyone. TC does not hold people against their will. When someone says they want to leave, they are allowed to go.

Teen Challenge is overall a great program and I credit it with saving my life from over a decade of hardcore drug addiction, a life that had me shooting meth in my veins, living on the streets and in and out of state prison. I would be dead today were it not for Teen Challenge. If you or a loved one are considering TC to get help in, then please ignore the garbage you see on the very few websites attacking this organization and do what is in your best interest and call your local center.
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Offline Karly

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« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2007, 10:20:47 AM »
For those who want to see that others have a problem with Teen Challenge, please check out the thread on Teen Challenge at Topix.net- http://http://www.topix.net/forum/city/minneapolis-mn/TN94VATH520HE9UQM

Karly
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Offline Karly

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« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2007, 10:24:52 AM »
I'd also like to make another comment to your statement regarding how you say that:
Quote
"Teen Challenge is largely run by former addicts"
 Please make note that Teen Challenge is also run by MANY ex-cons who did not do jail time and chose Teen Challenge instead!

Karly
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Offline Firebird81

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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2007, 10:25:51 AM »
Please do, you will see that most of the replies in that thread are from people who successfully completed that program and hold TC in high regard. There is a very vocal little circle of people who are showing up at all of the same places on the internet making the same accusations. Karly, you still haven't taken up my offer. You obviously are NOT interested in knowing the truth.
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Offline Karly

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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2007, 10:27:17 AM »
Your offer?  Offer for what?  To argue?  No thanks!
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Offline Firebird81

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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2007, 10:30:13 AM »
Quote from: ""Karly""
I'd also like to make another comment to your statement regarding how you say that:
Quote
"Teen Challenge is largely run by former addicts"
 Please make note that Teen Challenge is also run by MANY ex-cons who did not do jail time and chose Teen Challenge instead!

Karly


I was an ex-con that worked for Teen Challenge. I did not use TC to escape jail, tho. Are you saying ex-cons can't change, Karly? I spent 3 years in state prison and another 2 in various county jails before entering TC. Teen challenge deals with the worst of the worst addicts, hardcore street addicts that have nowhere left to turn. AA and NA meetings are run by ex-cons. Many residential treatment facilities have ex-cons that hold positions.

I have been clean 13 years. Today I own my own home, am happily married and make a very good living in Orange County, California.  Honestly, I take offense to your obtuseness.
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Offline Firebird81

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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2007, 10:33:11 AM »
Quote from: ""Karly""
Your offer?  Offer for what?  To argue?  No thanks!

argue? no. You've mae many accusations and false assumptions about TC. Have you ever been to a teen challenge? Ever gone to a turning point meeting to see what they are saying? Ever seen the Teen Challenge Choir perform? Ever ask those people standing in front of the stores what their experiences have been? Are you even interested or are you grinding some axe at the expense of others?
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Offline hanzomon4

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« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2007, 11:12:01 AM »
Fire, we've seen all of this before with other abusive programs. What you view as proof of success only furthers Teen Challenges image as a abusive facility.

Do some research on the other programs listed here and you'll get the idea.
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Offline Firebird81

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« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2007, 11:55:28 AM »
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
Fire, we've seen all of this before with other abusive programs. What you view as proof of success only furthers Teen Challenges image as a abusive facility.

Do some research on the other programs listed here and you'll get the idea.


What I view as success is completing the program and living a successful, sober life. Succeesful is subjective as some will seek financial success, some will seek fulfillment in other ways. Succeesful means being able to live your life as you wanted but couldn't because of drugs.

Teen Challenge is in no way an abusive program. Karly makes the absurd claim that it is because of a daily schedule that includes prayer and devotional times, as well as church. Oh the horror of it all! Have there been bad staffmembers at some facilities? Of course and as soon as TC sees that, they get rid of them. The vast majority of staff and interns at TC are dedicated, caring and loving people who have a heartfelt desire to help those who are where they themselves once were. These staff memebers typically make less than $1000 a month(far less in many cases), that's how dedicated they are to helping others.

This is not Phoenix House model where students are forced to wear toilet seats or sit on a hot seat while others shout abusive garbage at them.

The truth is, I don't care about convincing the people who run this or any other site. The ones I am concerned about are those who in their search come across these places and see this. I want them to know the truth, because some of their lives may depend on it.

Karly has already shown that she has no interest in knowing how TC really works.
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Offline Antigen

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Re: To those who find this forum...
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2007, 03:09:15 PM »
Quote from: ""Firebird81""
I know there are many people who rely on the internet today to research organizations they may wish to have dealings with, either by supporting or, in the case of Teen Challenge, more commonly, in  a search for help for themselves or a loved one.

I think it is very important to make all of you aware of the two most common motives people have for attacking Teen Challenge.

Translation: Don't go thinking you can go thinking for yourself, now. You don't have anywhere near the super hero awareness I have. But don't worry, I'll do all the thinking for you.

The first is former students who dropped out of the program. One such student now runs a website claiming to expose Southern California Teen Challenge---the very center I graduated from and the very district I worked for as a student advisor for 5 years. Many dropouts do leave angry. Change is hard. And Teen Challenge sets very high standards for success.

Translation:
You don't get super hero awareness like me without graduating the program. Only staff, who have attained a high degree of super hero awareness by associating nearly exclusively with other, similarly preternaturally endowed members are fit to judge whether or not a junkie is really sincere in their recovery or not. You wouldn't be able to tell, you're not qualified to judge and they are not even capable of thinking straight. UNLESS they're trying to convince you that they're not psychotic skidrow junkies who know what they're talking about. In that regard, they're deviously clever, brilliantly manipulative masters of deception. Only we are smart enough to see through that bullshit. Why? Because we're all junkies just like they are! So for God's sake don't listen to anything they say.


The second and uglier motive for attacking Teen Challenge is a relatively new one. And it is politically based, driven oftentimes by left wing organizations and special interests opposed to Bush's faith-based initiative.
Translation: Bush supported welfare mamas are not the same as Dem supported welfare mamas. Only a Bush supporter is endowed with enough super hero special awareness to tell good publicly funded social programs from bad ones. Again, don't try this at home, leave all the thinking to us.

Teen Challenge is the primary target of these people for two reasons, neither of which are Teen Challenge's fault. First---It was an incident in Texas where certain entites took it upon themselves to try to run TC out of the state. George Bush was Goverenor and stepped in to protect the program. Why? Did Bush stand alone? Absolutely not! Most texans knew Teen Challenge's reputation and exemplary record of helping addicts and found it absurd that such a great program that has done so much good could have it's doors shut because of some legal loophole.

Translation: Many people errantly view the establishment clause of the First Amendment as actual law and a good idea to boot. They haven't been endowed with the same super hero special preternatural awareness that George Bush has,  so what do they know about anything. We who are so endowed know that it's just a silly litle legal loophole. Keep going to meetings and you'll be able to clearly see that too.

Ok, now this is just silly!
Quote
This incident is what inspired Bush's federal faith based plan. Secualr and staterun programs are huge failures at rehabilitation, yet Teen Challenge showed much higher successes. Of course, since TC was the very basis for Bush's program ( not a RECIPIENT. TC would not qualify for funds thru this initiative!), political opponents proceeded to tear apart the initial study conducted on TC. The resulting hoopla has led to the usual nonsense and blogs and expose's--you name it. Of course, several other studies have also been conducted and repeatedly show 65-70% cure rates for graduates of the program. And, contrary to what you read here, a far higher percentage of people graduate TC than any other program I know of.

First of all the Faith Based Initiatives program was Clinton's baby. (I shit you not, under Bush they initially floated the remix with that unfortunate acronym). It started out as the AmeriCorps and California's "treatment not incarceration" themed www.prop36.org/ ">Prop 36> I thought the whole package sounded an awful lot like something out of Gulag Archepalego. I had to call my daddy up and apologize for being a smarty pants for arguing that at least the Dems aren't as mean spirited as the Repubs.

Second, those figures are made up out of whole cloth. Not calling you a liar, in order to lie you have to know what the truth is and consciously say otherwise. But they're bullshit none the less. If there were such a thing as a drug treatment program that had anything more than around a 5% sustained remission rate (exactly the same as spontanious remission w/ no treatment at all, btw) it would be earth shaking news and you'd have psychologists, sociologists, public and provate granting agencies and not profits up your ass documenting this miracle cure.

I can sit right down and write myself a letter about anything at all and call it a "study" in whatever topic may flit through my mind. But that wouldn't make it any more of a peer reviewed, properly done and credible study than whatever marketing copy you're citing. Show your faith in your convictions (beliefs, not successful indictments). Cite the source if you really want to be taken seriously on that point.
Quote
There is a third motive and that is one of anti-Christian sentiment, particularly anti-pentecostal sentiment. The reasons behind this are due completely to religious differences of belief.

Teen Challenge is largely run by former addicts. The programis based around not only introducing one to Christ, but teaching Chrisitan principles to be applied to daily life. It's not for everyone. TC does not hold people against their will. When someone says they want to leave, they are allowed to go.


Yes, especially among those forced either by law or family to be so indoctrinated against their own will and concience and those of us forced to fund your religious crusade through public funding. I'd love to get into this a little more, but I have to take one of my kids' friends to an ARD session. If she's 5 minutes late, they throw her ass in jail for some while. She says she gets a big kick out of doing her introduction; "Hi, my name is ______ and I'm a pot head". As de dawg chases his tail!
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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2007, 09:34:12 PM »
I don't know a great deal about Teen challenge. I didn't want to get caught up p in a debate when I am as ignorant as I am on the subject. But I can say that when I was researching options for my drug addled son, Teen Challenge was not an option, b/c they wouldn't take him against his will. They sent me an application that he had to fill out if he wanted to go.

They were kind on the phone - there was no high pressure tactic brought into play. The young man offered to pray for my family - and being one who believes in the power of prayer, I was grateful.

As for indoctrination - I could be wrong - but I wouldn't think a non-Christian would ever consider Teen Challenge. Its not like they hide their beliefs, or the fact they lean heavily on the power of prayer for healing, and so on.  

I got the impression that there are many chapters across the country and that they can differ significantly in their approach. This *might* mean that while this dude here may be telling the truth, that they don't put people in the hot seat wear he is; they might else were.  I got the impression that some were segregated male / female; and others weren't.  

I also recall being told that if a person wanted to leave they would not try and stop them. It was explained that it wasn't uncommon for people to decide to leave after a few days or weeks. They explained that they wouldn't hold an open place but that if the person later felt they wanted to return, they could be put back on the waiting list. The wait at the time was 6 months - is what I was told.

After what I have been through with WWASPS, I have to say I am impressed with the approach Teen Challenge takes. They may not be perfect (what human endeavor ever is) but they might be worth considering, if one is a Christian, and needing help with substance abuse.
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Offline hanzomon4

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« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2007, 12:14:17 AM »
From what I've gathered reading blogs and long debates on comments sections, and of course here, It looks like TC uses more coercive tactics to keep their wards. With the Adults it's usually court order or parole that the consolers use to keep them in the program. "If you don't we'll send you to jail". With the kids the parents hold all the sway.

I've heard the same thing about the differences regarding the various TC, however most of the complaints I've come across refer to the one in California. This just sound like all the other programs and program supporters. Abuse leaks out while the program(supporters) claim that their program is different, not like those abusive programs. I've become suspicious of every program and unless they are held accountable to laws(that are enforced), transparent, follow an evidence based model, stand up to fierce questioning with straight answers(not the "were not like X-evil program"), and have clearly defined policies across facilities(with in the law of X state) they'll get the hairy eyeball from me.

I'm not out to get anyone but the industry is so dirty and good at looking clean I just can't take them at their word. If you(fire) have been through it and liked it lets us know, Give us input on the Day to Day...        

Being that I've seen this kind of poster in Thayer Threads, WWASPS threads, Pure, Whitmore, Straight-clone, and X-known-abusive program threads I can't help but view this as the same thing.
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i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2007, 12:53:19 AM »
Quote from: ""BuzzKill""
I don't know a great deal about Teen challenge. I didn't want to get caught up p in a debate when I am as ignorant as I am on the subject. But I can say that when I was researching options for my drug addled son, Teen Challenge was not an option, b/c they wouldn't take him against his will. They sent me an application that he had to fill out if he wanted to go.

They were kind on the phone - there was no high pressure tactic brought into play. The young man offered to pray for my family - and being one who believes in the power of prayer, I was grateful.

As for indoctrination - I could be wrong - but I wouldn't think a non-Christian would ever consider Teen Challenge. Its not like they hide their beliefs, or the fact they lean heavily on the power of prayer for healing, and so on.  

I got the impression that there are many chapters across the country and that they can differ significantly in their approach. This *might* mean that while this dude here may be telling the truth, that they don't put people in the hot seat wear he is; they might else were.  I got the impression that some were segregated male / female; and others weren't.  

I also recall being told that if a person wanted to leave they would not try and stop them. It was explained that it wasn't uncommon for people to decide to leave after a few days or weeks. They explained that they wouldn't hold an open place but that if the person later felt they wanted to return, they could be put back on the waiting list. The wait at the time was 6 months - is what I was told.

After what I have been through with WWASPS, I have to say I am impressed with the approach Teen Challenge takes. They may not be perfect (what human endeavor ever is) but they might be worth considering, if one is a Christian, and needing help with substance abuse.


I think choice can be a very relative thing, particularly if somebody needs help quite badly. It is possible to be a practicing christian who signs on to something with only *half* the story because they want help badly. many christian welfare orgs and NGOs run counselling services both religious and secular. I could see how an unscupulous zealot would concern themself more with saving a soul and tell an addict what they want to hear. Or a kid may go semi voluntarily but with considerable pressure from her parents and family. Afterall 18 yr olds at WWASP are "free" to take an exit plan.

It is also common for cults to say that someone is free to go at any time. But if i had a real and severe addiction and was told I would be nothing without the program it might be a pretty strong incentive to stay. it is a really fine line.
We have Teen challenge here. it is not generally live in but lots of rehap here is not. I went to one of their meetings as a research thing. It was pretty heavily religious, more than I would be able to stomach but appeared to be helpful enough to those there. of course i am aware that nobody acts too crazy in front of a stranger but there have been no complaints that i am aware of. i wonder if it differes from country to country
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Offline Firebird81

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« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2007, 11:32:20 AM »
I am glad that some who have a little experience with TC have come around here. That gives me a place to jump from. To answer Buzzkill's question---every TC in the country is required to follow a set of guidelines in order to maintain certification. The same curriculum and basic schedule is followed at every center. Teen Challenge centers do not act autonomously, when it comes to what methods they use regarding structure. Where they act autonomously is in fundraising, because National (world Teen Challenge) does not provide them with funding, although seed money has been known to be provided to help a center get off it's feet.

Fundraising is where I could see the legitimate complaints, particularly with SoCal TC's decision to use the fire camps.  Many staff members hated that while I was there and felt it put potentially successful students at a risk of dropping out---it was a brutal schedule on those camps. BUt we have to put this into perspective--As TC grew into a national organization expenses obviously grew as well. Some tough decisions had to be made, because of TC's religious component it never has and never will qualify for federal funding, except for non-religious activities, of which there are very few in TC. The LATC Recreation Center in Lynwood (compton) is an example of one, tho. It is simply a recreation yard like the YMCA where neighborhood kids can get off the streets for a few hours several days a week and play in a safe environment.

Anyway, funding became a problem with the growth. So different centers had to come up with different solutions, as TC had always been a free program. Some centers started charging $300 a month, very cheap compared to many programs. Some started charging a one time entry of a few  hundred dollars. Teen Challenge has an advisory board of various pastors and large donors that deal with these types of challenges. In SoCal, one of them suggested selling pancake breakfast tickets in front of stores for $1. The directors of the SoCal centers felt it was very important to remain free, because most heroin addicts who need us the most can't afford to spend money on rehab. So they adopted this program and it's been a tradeoff ever since. It morphed into chicken dinner tickets sold door to door. Unfortuantely the seven socal centers had an annual budget of over $3 million. It cost $6000 a yr to house one student. So, various other methods were suggested and tried. Riverside TC does a car wash for the Riverside auto auction. And many centers signed on to the fire camp program where they cook for the firefighters.  

Fire camp has been the worst as far as dropouts and other problems and I always felt it wasn't worth it. Trying to get funding tho has turned fundraising into a large part of the program and it is easy to see why some get discouraged. Most, however, feel that since they are there free, it is worth it to them to work a little to keep the doors open. LATC also experimented with a pressure washing service offered to local businesses and had a moderate level of success bringing in some money that way. Worth noting is that David WIlkerson the founder, vehemently opposes fundraising, prefering instead to be about God's work and letting God provide the funding on his own. Truthfully, if needed funding was available any other way, socal tc would drop fundraising. Unfortuantely, no golden goose has ever arrived ( and Bush's plan would not have been the goose either, because of TC's strong religious integration) so decisions have been made. Free with fundraising, or charge without? Teen Challenge doesn't deal with middle class and rich people primarily. Their base are the street thugs, hardcore needle users, prostitutes and crackheads. How many of those people would have to be turned away if they charged. Like I said a tough decision. Regarding a couple other questions, I'll just make a different response.
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Offline hanzomon4

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« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2007, 12:11:34 PM »
Can you give us any input on the phases
Quote
While at the Teen Challenge office Mr. Soemo gave me literature about the organization. Throughout that literature the intent of the organization is made very clear.

Phase I of the five phases of Teen Challenge, according to their literature, is "Basic Confrontational Evangelism."

Phase II, III and IV revolve around constant and continuous indoctrination or "Christian studies," also accomplished through "One on One and Group Counseling."

Phase V, which is about re-entry into society revolves is based upon the principle of putting a client in an "established . . .. local Church." That church would apparently meet the doctrinal requirements of Teen Challenge.

Also TC does work in the prison systems, adult and juvenile(Arizona for sure). Questions have been raised regarding TC notification of parents that their child is involved with the program. What are the written rules on this and how does it actually play out in practice?

Also
Quote
It may be on the first visit or the fifth. The person usually realized that the only true change can come through Christ. They either receive or reject Him. The plan of salvation is explained to them. When possible we direct them to a Church for further follow-up. Others having come to this decision 'I really want help through Christ' we will then represent them in Court."


What's that about, TC represents people in court?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

Howto]