The program is on the outside.

[Anonymous]

Hey.

I'm sorta inclined to check things out foe m'se'f, ya know ??  I don't believe no-one or thing who threatens or tries to intimidate me.

We should learn to listen to the government because they usually mean well and should know what's best for us......right..?? ::seg::

[Antigen]

Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse and Pontiac were true American heros. And maybe even the Empress Verdiacee Tiari Washitaw-Turner Goston EL Bey too.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Who art thou ??; make thyself known. Post thy avatar.  For I suspect thee of impersonation.  Look into my eyes...and stand the sight.  If'n' ye indeed be Froderik.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse and Pontiac were true American heros. And maybe even the Empress Verdiace Tiari Washitaw-Turner Goston EL Bey too.

Crazy Horse, Sittin Bull and Pontiac but not cause of anything American.  They are spiritual heroes, and not because of who they were in life, for we really don't know and cannot judge, but because of what they have come to represent through their lives as symbols of our common pop mythology.   I'm not familliar with them other cats

All you need to know is within you.  Chew through the iron chains.  You are righteous.  God is in you.

[starry-eyed pirate]

Uhhh, this is now the 2nd time, since I been postin that I typed in the words: "you need" and it appeared in the post as "I want".

Whoever has the power to fix this should.  I don't really care to be misrepresented like that.  Obviously there is a glitch in the, program(no pun intended) :lol:.  And it really kinda leads me to wonder...'cause that aint right...so whoever can straighten(pun intended) the fuckin thing out should get on it, I think by now...

pirate out.

[Froderik]

Who art thou ??; make thyself known. Post thy avatar.  For I suspect thee of impersonation.  Look into my eyes...and stand the sight.  If'n' ye indeed be Froderik.

 :rofl:  8-) ::seg::

Perhaps Woody Guthrie should be added to that hero list..

And yes, the "you n33d" filter should be removed!

[Antigen]

Alright, alright! Joke's over. You guys are no damned fun sometimes!

Anyway, about the great heros, yeah all that, Pirate. And that's what I was taught to think of as American ideals. When they wrote the Constitution, they based it not only on the Magna Carta and Greek ideas about Republic, but also on the Iroquois Alliance. Them others who think it has some shit to do with conquest and authority are fuckin nuts, no matter how many of them there are.

Don't take this the wrong way, comrad, but I think of you as a pretty good American.

About halfway down on this page http://www.garifunaheritagefoundation.c ... on*id*val* it talks about the Empress. I met her once on the Miami River when the archaeologists were digging up the Maimi Circle. She's a trip! But the legal instruments she's claiming are probably not one bit less legitimate than the one's currently enforce. And she's an effective leader too. Last I heard she had a decent amount of patronage among community leaders and individuals in and around Louisiana.

[RTP2003]

A list of American heroes, in no particular order:

Larry Flynt

Emperor Norton I

Timothy Leary

Quanta Parker

J. R. "Bob" Dobbs

Boris, the guy whose face is on a package of Zig-Zag brand rolling papers.  Although of foreign origin, I have included him on my list because he is credited with teaching millions of Americans from all walks of life how to use marijuana to get "high".  Although still technically an outlaw, the number of people loyal to his philosophy continues to grow.



feel free to add your own faves......

[Antigen]

J. R. "Bob" Dobbs

All hail Bob!

 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:
 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  
 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  
 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  
 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  
 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  
 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  
 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  
 :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:

--
Get your divinity and learn how to grow your dick and make a million bucks!
Send $2 to payme@fornits.com or P.O. Box 515, Charleroi, PA, 15022

[Anonymous]

i am so sorry you're getting chocked, damn those shadow bastards.
tell them to go back to hell and jerk off and leave you alone!

[Anonymous]

his name is JESUS...    and we know what happened to HIM....
for speaking the truth.........

[Antigen]

Thomas Paine (1737–1809).  Common Sense.  1776.

Of the origin and design of government in general, with concise remarks on the English Constitution.
 
SOME writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our wants, and government by wickedness; the former promotes our happiness positively by uniting our affections, the latter negatively by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher.      1
  Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one; for when we suffer, or are exposed to the same miseries by a government, which we might expect in a country without government, our calamity is heightened by reflecting that we furnish the means by which we suffer. Government, like dress, is the badge of lost innocence; the palaces of kings are built on the ruins of the bowers of paradise. For were the impulses of conscience clear, uniform, and irresistibly obeyed, man would need no other lawgiver; but that not being the case, he finds it necessary to surrender up a part of his property to furnish means for the protection of the rest; and this he is induced to do by the same prudence which in every other case advises him out of two evils to choose the least. Wherefore, security being the true design and end of government, it unanswerably follows that whatever form thereof appears most likely to ensure it to us, with the least expence and greatest benefit, is preferable to all others.   2
  In order to gain a clear and just idea of the design and end of government, let us suppose a small number of persons settled in some sequestered part of the earth, unconnected with the rest, they will then represent the first peopling of any country, or of the world. In this state of natural liberty, society will be their first thought. A thousand motives will excite them thereto, the strength of one man is so unequal to his wants, and his mind so unfitted for perpetual solitude, that he is soon obliged to seek assistance and relief of another, who in his turn requires the same. Four or five united would be able to raise a tolerable dwelling in the midst of a wilderness, but one man might labour out the common period of life without accomplishing any thing; when he had felled his timber he could not remove it, nor erect it after it was removed; hunger in the mean time would urge him from his work, and every different want call him a different way. Disease, nay even misfortune would be death, for though neither might be mortal, yet either would disable him from living, and reduce him to a state in which he might rather be said to perish than to die.   3
  This necessity, like a gravitating power, would soon form our newly arrived emigrants into society, the reciprocal blessing of which, would supersede, and render the obligations of law and government unnecessary while they remained perfectly just to each other; but as nothing but heaven is impregnable to vice, it will unavoidably happen, that in proportion as they surmount the first difficulties of emigration, which bound them together in a common cause, they will begin to relax in their duty and attachment to each other; and this remissness, will point out the necessity, of establishing some form of government to supply the defect of moral virtue.   4
  Some convenient tree will afford them a State-House, under the branches of which, the whole colony may assemble to deliberate on public matters. It is more than probable that their first laws will have the title only of REGULATIONS, and be enforced by no other penalty than public disesteem. In this first parliament every man, by natural right, will have a seat.   5
  But as the colony increases, the public concerns will increase likewise, and the distance at which the members may be separated, will render it too inconvenient for all of them to meet on every occasion as at first, when their number was small, their habitations near, and the public concerns few and trifling. This will point out the convenience of their consenting to leave the legislative part to be managed by a select number chosen from the whole body, who are supposed to have the same concerns at stake which those have who appointed them, and who will act in the same manner as the whole body would act were they present. If the colony continues increasing, it will become necessary to augment the number of the representatives, and that the interest of every part of the colony may be attended to, it will be found best to divide the whole into convenient parts, each part sending its proper number; and that the elected might never form to themselves an interest separate from the electors, prudence will point out the propriety of having elections often; because as the elected might by that means return and mix again with the general body of the electors in a few months, their fidelity to the public will be secured by the prudent reflexion of not making a rod for themselves. And as this frequent interchange will establish a common interest with every part of the community, they will mutually and naturally support each other, and on this (not on the unmeaning name of king) depends the strength of government, and the happiness of the governed.   6
  Here then is the origin and rise of government; namely, a mode rendered necessary by the inability of moral virtue to govern the world; here too is the design and end of government, viz. freedom and security. And however our eyes may be dazzled with snow, or our ears deceived by sound; however prejudice may warp our wills, or interest darken our understanding, the simple voice of nature and of reason will say, it is right.   7
  I draw my idea of the form of government from a principle in nature, which no art can overturn, viz. that the more simple any thing is, the less liable it is to be disordered, and the easier repaired when disordered; and with this maxim in view, I offer a few remarks on the so much boasted constitution of England. That it was noble for the dark and slavish times in which it was erected, is granted. When the world was over run with tyranny the least remove therefrom was a glorious rescue. But that it is imperfect, subject to convulsions, and incapable of producing what it seems to promise, is easily demonstrated.   8
  Absolute governments (tho' the disgrace of human nature) have this advantage with them, that they are simple; if the people suffer, they know the head from which their suffering springs, know likewise the remedy, and are not bewildered by a variety of causes and cures. But the constitution of England is so exceedingly complex, that the nation may suffer for years together without being able to discover in which part the fault lies, some will say in one and some in another, and every political physician will advise a different medicine.   9
  I know it is difficult to get over local or long standing prejudices, yet if we will suffer ourselves to examine the component parts of the English constitution, we shall find them to be the base remains of two ancient tyrannies, compounded with some new republican materials.   10
  First.—The remains of monarchical tyranny in the person of the king.   11
  Secondly.—The remains of aristocratical tyranny in the persons of the peers.   12
  Thirdly.—The new republican materials, in the persons of the commons, on whose virtue depends the freedom of England.   13
  The two first, by being hereditary, are independent of the people; wherefore in a constitutional sense they contribute nothing towards the freedom of the state.   14
  To say that the constitution of England is a union of three powers reciprocally checking each other, is farcical, either the words have no meaning, or they are flat contradictions.   15
  To say that the commons is a check upon the king, presupposes two things.   16
  First.—That the king is not to be trusted without being looked after, or in other words, that a thirst for absolute power is the natural disease of monarchy.   17
  Secondly.—That the commons, by being appointed for that purpose, are either wiser or more worthy of confidence than the crown.   18
  But as the same constitution which gives the commons a power to check the king by withholding the supplies, gives afterwards the king a power to check the commons, by empowering him to reject their other bills; it again supposes that the king is wiser than those whom it has already supposed to be wiser than him. A mere absurdity!   19
  There is something exceedingly ridiculous in the composition of monarchy; it first excludes a man from the means of information, yet empowers him to act in cases where the highest judgment is required. The state of a king shuts him from the world, yet the business of a king requires him to know it thoroughly; wherefore the different parts, by unnaturally opposing and destroying each other, prove the whole character to be absurd and useless.   20
  Some writers have explained the English constitution thus; the king, say they, is one, the people another; the peers are an house in behalf of the king; the commons in behalf of the people; but this hath all the distinctions of an house divided against itself; and though the expressions be pleasantly arranged, yet when examined they appear idle and ambiguous; and it will always happen, that the nicest construction that words are capable of, when applied to the description of some thing which either cannot exist, or is too incomprehensible to be within the compass of description, will be words of sound only, and though they may amuse the ear, they cannot inform the mind, for this explanation includes a previous question, viz. How came the king by a power which the people are afraid to trust, and always obliged to check? Such a power could not be the gift of a wise people, neither can any power, which needs checking, be from God; yet the provision, which the constitution makes, supposes such a power to exist.   21
  But the provision is unequal to the task; the means either cannot or will not accomplish the end, and the whole affair is a felo de se; for as the greater weight will always carry up the less, and as all the wheels of a machine are put in motion by one, it only remains to know which power in the constitution has the most weight, for that will govern; and though the others, or a part of them, may clog, or, as the phrase is, check the rapidity of its motion, yet so long as they cannot stop it, their endeavors will be ineffectual; the first moving power will at last have its way, and what it wants in speed is supplied by time.   22
  That the crown is this overbearing part in the English constitution needs not be mentioned, and that it derives its whole consequence merely from being the giver of places and pensions is self-evident; wherefore, though we have been wise enough to shut and lock a door against absolute monarchy, we at the same time have been foolish enough to put the crown in possession of the key.   23
  The prejudice of Englishmen, in favour of their own government by king, lords and commons, arises as much or more from national pride than reason. Individuals are undoubtedly safer in England than in some other countries, but the will of the king is as much the law of the land in Britain as in France, with this difference, that instead of proceeding directly from his mouth, it is handed to the people under the more formidable shape of an act of parliament. For the fate of Charles the first, hath only made kings more subtle—not more just.   24
  Wherefore, laying aside all national pride and prejudice in favour of modes and forms, the plain truth is, that it is wholly owing to the constitution of the people, and not to the constitution of the government that the crown is not as oppressive in England as in Turkey.   25
  An inquiry into the constitutional errors in the English form of government is at this time highly necessary; for as we are never in a proper condition of doing justice to others, while we continue under the influence of some leading partiality, so neither are we capable of doing it to ourselves while we remain fettered by any obstinate prejudice. And as a man, who is attached to a prostitute, is unfitted to choose or judge of a wife, so any prepossession in favour of a rotten constitution of government will disable us from discerning a good one.   26
 http://www.bartleby.com/133/index.html

[starry-eyed pirate]

Ahhhh.... :lol:  ::read::  ::bandit::  ::hatter::...uh-huh!

[Antigen]

::hatter:: ?

[starry-eyed pirate]

I like Thom Paine and "Common Sense" comes down to me as a book my grandfa'r, who i barely remember, cause he died in '72, referenced often.  That's what my mama tells me.  So I's comin through Chicago, on my way home from pickin up a good girlfriend 'a' mine up in Madison, a few years back, and decided to look around for used book stores.  I see a Powells(book store) in the yellow pages and I know Powells from my time in Portland.  That's where I fist discovered Tom Robbins, "Another Roadside Attraction", up in Portland, back in the day. Great read , BTW.  And 'a' course I, havin been given a good dose of identification with the Irish struggle, as a child have read "Trinity", you know, and I remember how Connor Larkin, the hero of the story, quotes Thom Paine as he defends his so-called 'treasonous' actions to the English magistrate.  Another great read. So...to cut to the chase, I drive down through the south side and eventually come to Powells Books, which was near the university of Chicago.  I come into the place and first off ask the man behind the counter if they're affiliated with the Powells out in OR.  He told me they were originally owned by the same family, but no longer.  Anyway I picked up a nice hard back copy of "Collected Writings" by Thomas Paine there and finally read "Common Sense" for the first time a few years ago.  What I'm tryin to say is that while I have an immense amount of respect for Paine, the revolutionary writer, who's words unleashed one nation from the bonds of another, and in so doing taught us all, about human dignity, I'm not sure that "society in every state is a blessing".

Yeah, I'm extremely skeptical of that statement...

I also got "Wolfe Tone, The Prophet of Irish Independence" which was a hard and scholarly read, but very interesting, that day, and some other books on Irish history and "the Transcendentalists" by Perry Miller, which contains all kinds of phenomenal writing.

Thom Paine though, ... ::cheers:: ...Yeah, great revolutionary... :skull: