Deb, our concepts of humanity, humanism, being kind, being civil.. HUMANE treatment... those are concepts we made. I didn't say we were the only sentient beings, we are the only known SAPIENT beings.
Guess it depends on your definition. If you mean wisdom, which is derived from observation and cause/effect; then how could one say that animals aren't sapient? I think humans spend way too much effort on trying to distinquish themselves from other species in order to feel superior. If we are different or special, then it seems incumbent on us to ensure that the natural world remain in tact so all life forms continue, instead of destroying it and select species. I personally don't find too many 'sapient' humans these days. And tend to consider animals much wiser than humans in that they don't actively destroy the very environment that sustains them.
These concepts are not naturalistic, they are human. Humanely killing an animal (say at a farm) is not how, say, a predator or group of predators would do it. Seen lionesses eat animals alive they pin down? Seen Grizzlies peel the skin off animals still struggling while eating? Do they care about killing it first? Only if they have to. Otherwise, its wasted effort and evolutionarily speaking foolish. Our concepts of being kind, being good, doing the right thing... these are not universal or natural. Those too are human-derived... we came up with them.
Not something I have time to think much about or research right now, but I know that some animals do kill their prey before eating it. I also notice that the mama eats before the babies in some clans, cause if mama don't eat, don't nobody eat. And in terms of kind/good/right, might we lump those together under respect? I'm thinking about monkeys that have multiple adults caring for them. Bear and foxes playing with their babies, but then kicking them out of the den when they're able to fend for themselves. Same with birds. There is a dove nest in my backyard. I watch the mama
and the daddy take care of them everyday, not true of all birds. They also mate for life, not true of all. Animals, like humans observe, learn, change, adapt, just like humans. I don't think they are given enough credit, personally. I think humans have had to make them inferior to justify the disrespectful way they are treated, as white folk did to black. If you's inferior, you's fair game to be oppressed.
I am not saying we shouldn't care about other nations - I AM saying we should not get tunnel vision and forget what is at our feet. I am not saying animals do not matter and we should not treat them humanely -I am saying that we shouldn't forget about our own kids being farmed!
I know that about you. But, others are not going to leave their causes of choice and jump on this bandwagon to save, what, 10K kids a year from being brainwashed? Honestly, for some, it would seem insignificant when looking at the big picture. You'd first have to spend days convincing them that it's happening. Besides, and I'm not being critical, but if all those apathetic, feel-good, activists did jump on the industry bandwagon, what exactly would they do?
Personally, to me the environment is a resource to be managed for our own sake...
Ever heard of specism? Why not for the sake of all species? We really are a team. We aren't superior.
Same for animals. Domesticated animals are pretty fucking successful, aren't they? Chickens are doing better than before domestication, same for dogs... same for cats, same for pigs. Am I saying they should be kept in squalid conditions, abused, or mistreated? No.
Welp, I won't stay on the soapbox too long, and my apologies to pet owners who may be offended. We need more chickens running wild and fewer domesticated cats and dogs. Do you know anything about factory farming of chickens? It is grossly repulsive. You might not eat chicken again if you did. Deer were becoming domesticated where I used to live because of the unnatural numbers due to human encroachment and the killing of all their predators. They were starving and would come right onto my porch and eat pot plants. They were scrawny and unhealthy. Nature works. Humans fuck it up. Their predators were killed because ranchers didn't want to loose a cow or two every year. Open the newpaper to the domesticated animal section. It's often larger than the real estate section, big business. Someone I know spent $2000 for a yippyyappy, useless, dog. Can't remember the breed, but the most obnoxious animal I've ever been around. Like a furry rat on cocaine. We have an unnatural population of kitties and puppies that are taking a toll on other species- extinction of some fish to make cat food, extinction of song birds, lizards, frogs. Some have been so domesticated they couldn't take care of themselves if they had to. I hear dogs all over my neighborhood yelping at each other in the night and it always sounds like they are so miserable. You think they enjoy being isolated from their kind and made to be the emotional slave of a human? Humans decide when, or if they reproduce. When/if they go outside. And what of all the in-breeding causing retardation. They're as unhappy as their owners, tearing up the house when left alone, pissing on the carpet in retaliation, and many are on fucking prozac. Is that 'successful'? They live in captivity, just as we all do. A good book on the subject is "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn, in which a gorilla details the ills of captivity. In effect, we ALL live in program everyday. Robbed of our inherent wisdom, robbed of quality time spent with loved ones, robbed of relaxation and recreation, working at mind numbing occupations that have no genuine benefit to any species, but keep that GNP lookin good.
I am saying that if the same effort that "PETA" puts into bitching about KFC and fur-farms went into bitching about DFAF and 'duck'-farms (er, quacks...) we wouldn't be here having this discussion! I'm sick and tired of blinded-by-their-ideology people caring about "their issue" or their "pop-issues" and losing sight of the bigger picture.
I hear ya. I wish everyone would support my causes too. Ain't gonna happen. The 'bigger picture' meaning programs. The bigger picture for me, is the general lack of care and respect for nature and all species. If we lived in a culture that even respected human life, we wouldn't have programs. That's my bigger picture, and how do you change that? Hint: you don't. You sit and slowly watch the drive for more money and power destroy everyone and everything in it's path.
Everyone bitching about conditions overseas need to get to NEW ORLEANS... its been over a YEAR now and its still a hell hole! People who want to help education elsewhere should look at our own education system.
No shit! Lots to bitch about, right here at home. And if your government doesn't respect it's own citizens, it's sure not gonna respect citizens of the world, specially if they got something they can profit from.
Remember when Bill hicks said if we spent our defense budget on feeding and clothing the world, and educating them, it would pay for itself many times over... and we wouldn't even have to spend the entire budget to do it? I'd be fine with that. But, alas, everyone's too stupid to think along those lines... Ugh.
I might agree with that too, what if they prefer to be naked rather than clothed? And, it would depend on how he proposed to 'educate' them. How's that working here? Compulsory education hasn't eliminated poor and working poor. The US, wealthiest nation on the planet has dropped to #6 in quality of life.
Either way, the amount of awareness and effort into stopping parent/state sponsored brainwashing and torture is way, way, WAY too low and there's no excuse for people with loaded language who care about a small niche of the big picture of the hell we are going to in a fucking hand basket ignoring it.
There are literally millions of people who are still ignorant of the industry's existence. Can't fault them for not supporting something they don't know exists. Educating the masses is a slow process unless you have unlimited money and time. As far as 'amount of effort', I have watched the awareness grow and significantly more effort happen right here. When I first came to Fornits there could be a day or more that no posts were made, or that's how I remember it. I always wished there was more activity. Awareness and momentum are/have grown, it's just a slow process. Imagine what it feels like for blacks to still be enduring racism after 50+ years of 'liberation'. Do you know that the study showing blacks to be intellectually inferior is STILL cited, even though subsequent studies disproved it? Humans are de-volving. We're a mess and have created lots of messes. The industry is one of them, and in the big picture, and to some people, a small one. Sad, but true.
