TheWho: Spin off discussion, Unconditional Love

[TheWho]

just as soon as you answer the question you've carefully dodged for the past eight hours we'll get right back on topic.  right now the topic is your statement that you place conditions on loving your child.  that's very sick.  can you explain why you do this?

I think everyone knows by now I am not going to respond to it,  but there are a few who keep holding on to the idea....

[RobertBruce]

Then why did you bring it up to begin with?

If you dont want people badgering you about your comments, dont make comments you arent willing to back up. Simple concept.

And if you are going to be a coward about it and refuse to back up your own comments dont blame it on others. Step up to the plate and own up to your own weakness and fear, dont blame it on DJ. Espically since youve neither caught him in a lie nor proven him wrong on anything.

[TheWho]

Okay, lets move on...this isnt fair to the other people trying to follow the thread...it is what it is.

[TheWho]

Well, here's a copy, before it gets "marked-up".
What's all the fuss by the opposition? This bill doesn't even make state licensing/regulation of domestic programs mandatory. It only allows for grants to create regulations/monitoring of "treatment services for children with emotional, psychological, developmental, or behavioral dysfunctions, impairments, or chemical dependencies". Participation appears to be voluntary.
All the language about fines for operating without a license (if a state chooses to license/regulation programs), abuse/neglect, etc. are standard and common to all regulations I've read.
What specifically about this bill would have a devastating effect on the industry?

H.R. 1738 [109th]: End Institutionalized Abuse Against Children Act of 2005
HR 1738 IH
109th CONGRESS
1st Session
H. R. 1738
To assure the safety of American children in foreign-based and domestic institutions, and for other purposes.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

April 20, 2005

Mr. GEORGE MILLER of California (for himself, Mr. KILDEE, Mr. OWENS, Mr. MCDERMOTT, and Mr. VAN HOLLEN) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Education and the Workforce, and in addition to the Committee on International Relations, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned
----------------------------------------------------------------
A BILL
To assure the safety of American children in foreign-based and domestic institutions, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the `End Institutionalized Abuse Against Children Act of 2005'.

SEC. 2. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT INVESTIGATIONS.

(a) In General- In order to assure the safety and welfare of American children residing in foreign-based institutions, the Attorney General shall seek the cooperation of appropriate foreign authorities in order to investigate such facilities or institutions periodically. Such an investigation shall include a determination of the institution's compliance with any local safety, health, sanitation and educational laws and regulations, including all licensing requirements applicable to the staff of the institution and compliance with this section. The Attorney General shall seek the cooperation of appropriate foreign authorities to remedy any threat to the safety or welfare of those children, discovered through such an investigation.

(b) Rules and Enforcement- (1) The Attorney General shall make rules to protect the safety and wellbeing of American children who are kept in a foreign based institution for purposes of behavior modification.
(2) Whoever, being a United States citizen or national, or other private entity organized under the laws of the United States or of any State or political subdivision of the United States, violates a rule made under this subsection shall be subject to a civil penalty not to exceed $50,000.

(c) Definitions- As used in this section--
(1) the term `foreign-based institution' means any facility or institution--
(A) owned, operated, or managed by a United States citizen or other private entity organized under the laws of the United States; and
(B) for persons, including persons who are residing in such facility or institution, for purposes of receiving care or treatment or behavior modification; and
(2) the term `American children' means American citizens or nationals 18 years of age or younger.

SEC. 3. AMENDMENTS TO DEPARTMENT OF STATE'S COUNTRY REPORTS ON HUMAN RIGHTS PRACTICES.

(a) Part I of Foreign Assistance Act of 1961- Section 116 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (22 U.S.C. 2151n) is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
`(g)(1) The report required by subsection (d) shall include, wherever applicable, a description of the nature and extent of child abuse or human rights violations against persons who are 18 years of age or younger at institutions described in paragraph (2) that are located in each foreign country.
`(2) An institution referred to in paragraph (1) is a facility or institution--
`(A) owned, operated, or managed by a United States citizen or other private entity organized under the laws of the United States; and
`(B) for persons, including persons who are residing in such facility or institution, for purposes of receiving care or treatment or behavior modification.'.

(b) Part II of Foreign Assistance Act of 1961- Section 502B of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (22 U.S.C. 2304) is amended by adding at the end the following new subsection:
`(i)(1) The report required by subsection (b) shall include, wherever applicable, a description of the nature and extent of child abuse or human rights violations against persons who are 18 years of age or younger at institutions described in paragraph (2) that are located in each foreign country.
`(2) An institution referred to in paragraph (1) is a facility or institution--
`(A) owned, operated, or managed by a United States citizen or other private entity organized under the laws of the United States; and
`(B) for persons, including persons who are residing in such facility or institution, for purposes of receiving care or treatment or behavior modification.'.

SEC. 4. GRANTS TO SUPPORT INSPECTIONS OF CHILD RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT FACILITIES.

(a) In General- The Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (42 U.S.C. 5101 et seq.) is amended by adding at the end the following new title:
`TITLE III--GRANTS TO STATES TO SUPPORT INSPECTIONS OF CHILD RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT FACILITIES

`SEC. 301. GRANTS TO STATES.
`The Secretary is authorized to make grants to States to support inspections of child residential treatment facilities.

`SEC. 302. APPLICATION.
`The Secretary may not make a grant to a State under section 301 unless the State submits to the Secretary an application for the grant at such time, in such form and manner, and containing such information as the Secretary may reasonably require.

`SEC. 303. ELIGIBILITY.
`(a) In General- The Secretary may not make a grant to a State under section 301 unless the State has in effect laws to require the licensing of child residential treatment facilities in accordance with the requirements of subsection (b) and the State is enforcing such State laws in accordance with the requirements of subsection (c).

`(b) Licensing Requirements- The licensing requirements referred to in subsection (a) are the following:
`(1) The State requires any person who operates a child residential treatment facility to be issued a license for the operation of the facility, and the license is in effect.
`(2) The facility meets applicable standards of the State for the provision of treatment services for children with emotional, psychological, developmental, or behavioral dysfunctions, impairments, or chemical dependencies.
`(3) In the case of each child who is a resident of the facility and whose domicile is another State, the facility meets the standards of such other State for the operation of such a facility, including any licensing standards.
`(4) With respect to State law that prohibits the physical or mental abuse of children and the neglect of children, the law of the State in which the facility is located applies to the facility standards for the care of children who are residents of the facility, including enforcement standards, that are equivalent to the standards applied by the State to parents or legal guardians.
`(5) The State requires periodic, unannounced inspections of the facility to determine compliance with applicable law, including law regarding the licensing of health professionals and law regarding the standards referred to in paragraph (4).

`(c) Enforcement Requirements- The enforcement requirements referred to in subsection (a) are the following:
`(1) IN GENERAL-
`(A) CIVIL PENALTY- A person who operates a child residential treatment facility in violation of the requirements under subsection (b) is subject to a civil penalty of $250 per day until the violation is corrected, except that the number of days for which the penalty is assessed may not exceed 60 days.
`(B) ORDER TO TERMINATE OPERATIONS- With respect to a violation of the requirements under subsection (b), if a civil penalty under subparagraph (A) for the violation is assessed for 60 days, the State orders that the child residential treatment facility involved terminate all operations.

`(2) ABUSE OR NEGLECT-
`(A) CIVIL PENALTY- If a child residential treatment facility engages in the abuse or neglect of a child who is a resident of the facility, each person who owns or operates the facility, and each of the officers, employees, or contractors thereof who engaged in the abuse or neglect, is subject to a civil penalty for each such violation in an amount determined by the State, but not less than $20,000 for all violations adjudicated in a single proceeding.
`(B) CRIMINAL PENALTY- If a child residential treatment facility engages in the abuse or neglect of a child who is a resident of the facility, each person who owns or operates the facility, and each of the officers, employees, or contractors thereof who engaged in the abuse or neglect, shall be fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
`(C) ABUSE OR NEGLECT- For purposes of subparagraphs (A) and (B), the term `abuse or neglect', with respect to a child, means a knowing act or omission that the officer, employee, or contractor involved knows or should know will result in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation, or will present an imminent risk of serious harm.

`SEC. 304. USE OF FUNDS.
`A State that receives a grant under section 301 shall use amounts under the grant to--
`(1) hire and train individuals who have appropriate expertise in the health profession, including the mental health profession, to carry out periodic, unannounced inspections of child residential treatment facilities in accordance with section 303(b)(5); and
`(2) collect and maintain data from the inspections of such child residential treatment facilities to be included in the report required by section 306.

`SEC. 305. MAINTENANCE OF EFFORT.
`A State that receives a grant under section 301 shall use amounts under the grant only to supplement the level of non-Federal funds that, in the absence of amounts under the grant, would be expended for activities authorized under the grant, and not to supplant those non-Federal funds.

`SEC. 306. REPORT.
`The Secretary may not make a grant to a State under section 301 unless the State agrees that it will submit to the Secretary for each fiscal year for which it receives a grant under such section a report that contains such information as the Secretary may reasonably require, including a detailed description of the number of child residential treatment facilities located in the State, the number of children residing at such facilities, the State domicile of each child prior to entry at such a facility, and the age, gender, and disability (if any) of each child at such a facility.

`SEC. 307. DEFINITIONS.
`In this title:
`(1) CHILD- The term `child' means an individual 18 years of age or younger.
`(2) CHILD RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT FACILITY; FACILITY- The term `child residential treatment facility' or `facility' means a facility that--
`(A) provides a 24-hour group living environment for one or more children who are unrelated to the owner or operator of the facility; and
`(B) offers for the children room or board and specialized treatment, behavior modification, rehabilitation, discipline, emotional growth or rehabilitation services for youths with emotional, psychological, developmental, or behavioral dysfunctions, impairments, or chemical dependencies.
`(3) SECRETARY- The term `Secretary' means the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
`(4) STATE- The term `State' means each of the several States, the District of Columbia, and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico.

`SEC. 308. AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.
`There are authorized to be appropriated to carry out this title $50,000,000 for each of the fiscal years 2006 and 2007.'.
(b) Clerical Amendment- The table of contents of the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (42 U.S.C. 5101 note) is amended by adding at the end the following:

`TITLE III--GRANTS TO STATES TO SUPPORT INSPECTIONS OF CHILD RESIDENTIAL TREATMENT FACILITIES
`Sec. 301. Grants to States.
`Sec. 302. Application.
`Sec. 303. Eligibility.
`Sec. 304. Use of funds.
`Sec. 305. Maintenance of effort.
`Sec. 306. Report.
`Sec. 307. Definitions.
`Sec. 308. Authorization of appropriations.'.

Cosponsors
Rep. Dale Kildee [D-MI]
Rep. James McDermott [D-WA]
Rep. Major Owens [D-NY]
Rep. Fortney Stark [D-CA]
Rep. Christopher Van Hollen [D-MD]
Rep. Nydia Velázquez [D-NY]
Rep. Lynn Woolsey [D-CA]
Rep. David Wu [D-OR]

We were looking at a copy of the petition before it got marked up....

[RobertBruce]

Okay, lets move on...this isnt fair to the other people trying to follow the thread...it is what it is.

It is what it is? Gosh where have we all heard that line before.

Cindy youve embarrassed yourself and tried everything in your power to cover it up. You tried making up things concerning other posters in the hopes the focus would be moved onto them, youve tried changing the subject, you've tried playing the victim, et cet.

All you had to do was back up your own comments when you made them and pages and pages of wasted and pointless conversation never would have occured.

Its all on you buddy.

[TheWho]

Okay,  lets look at the post that has DJ and Bob, so upset.  This was a post I made in response to Psy as he mentioned

Psy wrote:

?There are certain things that can completely sever the ties of love between parent and child. There is no such thing as "unconditional". Fool yourself all you wish, but if I were you, I would at least ask those questions you are afraid to, and beg for the forgiveness that you do not deserve.

I responded:

That is pretty intense and it is a good point,psy. Parents should keep a thumb on the pulse of their child and listen to how they are doing. If they sound distressed when they call you should ask to have another conference with them to insure that they are okay. I remember on a particular occasion, after my daughter ran away , that she sounded distressed and we scheduled another call back about an hour later and we talked it thru and spoke for about 45 minutes. She was struggling with a balance between her school work and what they expected to do during her off time which didn?t allow for her studies. She wasn?t use to working that hard. My daughter doesn?t thank me for sending her there but she understands that it was good for her (she wouldn?t want to do it over again, though).
I am not a big believer in ?unconditional love?. I think the bond between a parent and child is built upon a foundation started from infancy and is solidified over time from years of trust and formed from the natural dependency, nurturing and love that occurs and that the home is a safe place to grow, spread your wings, make mistakes, fall and start over. The home should never be a place to be embarrassed or feel ashamed it should be a place to practice life without being judged. If this process is interrupted or threatened the parent is the one who needs to step in and right its course.

If I asked my daughter tomorrow where she would rather be if there was trouble in her life I know she would chose home, because that is where her family is and that is where she feels safe. This is the place she comes to when she needs to sort out answers or scream at someone or ask for advice or feel safe.
Unconditional love, no it isn?t?but we continue to work on it every day and the working at it is what love is and it keeps us together.

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... 21f#249509

I think many of you know me as one who doesn?t believe in absolutes. I don?t believe all TBS?s are bad and I don?t believe they are all good either.   I don?t believe anything is unconditional (sorry, just my nature).  I think any bond can be broken if it is not cared for, is neglected, abused enough it will fail.  I don?t think anyone will love you (unconditionally) ?no matter what? under all circumstances.

Sorry if my beliefs offend others

Hope this calms people down and we can continue.

[RobertBruce]

No one is upset by this Cindy, we were simply looking for you to explain yourself and tell us what conditions your daughter must meet in order to recieve your love.

An interesting side note if youre willing to discuss it, did your own parents hate you? Was your love with them conditional?

[TheWho]

Yeah...good move  (Deborah I think) to break it off, the thread sort of got hijacked by DJ, didnt realize it went on for so many pages after that.

[Oz girl]

I cant even begin to understand how a parent cant love their child unconditionally. Why would you have a child if you are not prepared to do this. It is pretty much a given that all families are disfunctional but even with this in mind the concept of conditional love from a parent is revolting.
No wonder these bizarre places thrive.

[Troll Control]

So, here's where we're at:

TheWho said:

"I don't believe in unconditional love"

If you don't believe in unconditional love, then therefore you must believe in conditional love or that love doewsn't exist.  TheWho went on to state that he does believe love exists, but it is conditional.

TheWho was then asked if love is conditional, what are the conditions he requires to love his daughter, since he already stated he doesn't love her unconditionally.

It's a logical progression and completely sound.  TheWho is trying to back out of his statement now, but he did say it, several times in fact.

Here's the argument:

1.  Love exists.
2.  Love is not unconditional.
3.  Therefore love is conditional.
4.  Love is given to individuals based on certain conditions.
5.  Therefore TheWho has conditions that people must meet in order to gain his love.
6.  Therefore his daughter would need to meet those conditions.
7.  Therefore TheWho does not unconditionally love his daughter.

This begs the question "Under which conditions does TheWho love his child, and under which conditions does he not?"

It's really a simple question to answer.

[Troll Control]

Yeah...good move  (Deborah I think) to break it off, the thread sort of got hijacked by DJ, didnt realize it went on for so many pages after that.

Well, not really.  You actually made a very big statement of your own volition.  then you got embarrassed because you were caight in another bad spot so you went about trolling the thread to avoid accounting for your statement.

This is a program tactic straight from the book:  demand vehemently that everyone accept accountabiliity for what they do and say, unless you're a staff member in which case you simply refuse to take responsibility for your actions and words and blame the child for the problem that ensues.  

This is what you've done in this thread, Who.  You stuck that foot in your mouth again and now you'll do and say anything to avoid responsibility for it, just like the way you blamed your daughter for your family problems and abdicated responsibility for the situation and sent her to be programmed into something you felt worthy of your love.  

You wanted a stepford child and you paid big bucks for it.  Then it all blew up in your face when your daughter came home and cut you out of her life.  And who could blame her?

You keep saying you "tried everything" at home, but just yesterday you admitted you never even went to family therapy, you sent your daughter to therapy, alone, because she was the problem in your eyes, and when that, unsurprisingly, didn't "work," you sent her away, alone, to a program, for two years to be "fixed."

Your whole life with your own child is composed of excuses, copouts and conditional love.  Naturally, she has rejected you, as she should reject anyone who behaves as you do.  Good for her.

You are one very, very sad and very sick person, Who.  If I were you I wouldn't want to talk about it either. :cry:  ops:

[psy]

Listen.  For once i aggree with the who.  Love is conditional.  I know people that flat out hate their parents for what was done to them.  It is possible for love to end.


But as i've said.... where the kids love is based on humane treatment etc... some parent's love is often based on control.  The only difference is the condition under which love ends.

[Deborah]

I cant even begin to understand how a parent cant love their child unconditionally. Why would you have a child if you are not prepared to do this. It is pretty much a given that all families are disfunctional but even with this in mind the concept of conditional love from a parent is revolting.
No wonder these bizarre places thrive.

Probably something he heard in a parent seminar. Thought it sounded good and adopted without contemplating what it actually means. And then maybe his love is conditional, so the program was a good fit.

[Troll Control]

Listen.  For once i aggree with the who.  Love is conditional.  I know people that flat out hate their parents for what was done to them.  It is possible for love to end.


But as i've said.... where the kids love is based on humane treatment etc... some parent's love is often based on control.  The only difference is the condition under which love ends.

We were talking about a parent's love for their child, not the other way around.  

Of course, people with serious mental defects, like TheWho or some other program parents (not all - some were duped) aren't capable of giving of themselves.  What they do they do for their own benefit, not the child's.  People likeTheWho send their kids to programs because they just don't like their kids and the kids therefore are not worthy of their love.  He said it flat out - he does not love his daughter unless she meets certain conditions.  It's an illness, not the norm.

A parent's unconditional love for their child is the most natural thing in the world.  Only very selfish people with serious mental defects believe otherwise, like TheWho.  

It's unnatural for a parent to love their child based on conditions.

[Troll Control]

It is possible for love to end.

Yes, this is true.  But in order for it to end, it must have existed prior.  And it is innate.  

But, of course, just like in a program, people can be conditioned to feel otherwise, as TheWho's daughter learned at ASR.  This is why she rejects her father now.  He and the program are one in the same - all value of the child is derived from compliance and pleasing the adults, not from love.  It's good though that she learns at an early age so as not to handle her own problems like her father did, by blaming the child.