I have a few questions

[mcadaret]

All y'all,

I do not post often. I offered an initial introducory post that received next to no repsonse. Since that time, I've read the board often and sometimes commented. Again, I recieved very little response.

All in all, I've received a very chilly welcome here. I wonder whether it is because I am assumed to be a "Jesus-Freak." I have been open from the time I introduced myself that I will soon be ordained as a minister in the Episcopal Church. I don't think I've proselytized, but I have not hidden my faith either. Have I received the chilly reception I have because "Oh God, he's a Jesus-Freak?" I'm wondering now because of so much disparging talk about religion in general and Christianity in particular, and because I've seen most people rather warmly welcomed here. I don't mean to offend. I ask out of curiosity.

Following on that curiosity: I'm prompted to say that we obviously have, on this board, people of active (and varied expressions of) Christian faith; people who subscribe to other spiritual paths; and people who, in varying degrees, are suspicious and skeptical about religion in general and Christianity in particular. There have been what I regard to be regretable statements made from people across this spectrum towards people across this spectrum. Regretable, in that the comments made, most often, have lacked charity and humility. I direct that criticism to my Christian brothers and sisters directly, and I direct that to rest of the board saying I understand why my Christian brothers and sisters have reason to feel disparaged.

Some of the assumptions directed towards Christians on this board are patently smug and unfair, in my opinion. The assumption that Christians are somehow weak and that their faith is spackle to fill holes in the walls their psyche is unfair. The assumption that Christians lack the capacity for (or at least don't practice) critical thinking in regards to Church doctrine, understandings of God, the Scriptures, society, and our fellow human beings is patently false. I am Christian. I am strong. My faith is not a crutch. I do ask critical questions. I do practice free thought. It is not fair to me to flippantly dismiss me because I am Christian. Take this observation from a Christian who HAS NOT TRIED TO PREACH TO YOU, NOR CONDEMNED ANYONE TO HELL. NOR TOLD YOU THAT YOUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON YOU AGREEING WITH ME.

So my next question how do people feel about Christians? I'm not looking for flames or fights. I'm looking for simple statements for the sake of the board's own self-critique. Is there an anti-Christian prejudice here? If there is, there is. If there isn't, there isn't. I'm not going to run off one way or another, nor will I stop being open about my faith. I come here to remember. For so long, I had forgotten. This forum helps me a great deal in this regard.

A final note. I don't know and don't care who started the Carmel -vs- Morli fight. I don't think either of you is entirely at fault or entirely innocent. But... it seems everytime Carmel opens her mouth, she's getting her shit jumped. I, for one, am tired of it. I think Carmel has been beat on enough now for any of the shit she might have said in the past. Please move on. Know that I appreciate both of you for your differing perspectives, but this tit-tat crap amounts to just that - crap.

I think I can safely say that I' ve pissed off at least someone with this post. Oh well...

After 18 months of motivating in blue plastic chairs, I know that I am your brother,

Michael Cadaret    

Babylon in all its desolation is a sight not so awful as that of the human mind in ruins.
-- Scrope Davies: Letter to Thomas Raikes, May 25, 1835.

[Antigen]

Hi Michael,
Sorry you feel neglected. I hope I caught your first post and said welcome. I try to do that. Maybe you joined up in the middle of a brawl or when a lot of people were joining up or maybe people were just busy with the conference last year. Whatever the reason, I'm sorry you didn't get a warm welcome and I hope we can change that.

Of course, maybe the reason no one's engaged you is precisely because you haven't pissed anyone off? Do we tend to be a bit combative around here? Oh yeah!

On 2003-04-25 14:40:00, mcadaret wrote:

So my next question how do people feel about Christians? I'm not looking for flames or fights. I'm looking for simple statements for the sake of the board's own self-critique. Is there an anti-Christian prejudice here? If there is, there is. If there isn't, there isn't. I'm not going to run off one way or another, nor will I stop being open about my faith. I come here to remember. For so long, I had forgotten. This forum helps me a great deal in this regard.

Well, as you note above, there's some anti-religious, anti-Christian, pro-religious and pro-Christian sentiment around here. The full range. I'm an agnostic myself. The only think I know for sure about God is that I'm not. I'm not offended by religious discussion but not particularly interested in it either, most of the time. I don't dislike anyone because of their faith or lack of it. One thing I did learn from my Christian upbringing and that's stuck with me is "by their fruits ye shall know them."

Of course, I can only speak for myself. Maybe some people feel differently.

On 2003-04-25 14:40:00, mcadaret wrote:

I think I can safely say that I' ve pissed off at least someone with this post. Oh well...

After 18 months of motivating in blue plastic chairs, I know that I am your brother,

Brother, you're going to have to try harder than that, as far as I'm concerned!

Bigot: One fanatically devoted to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and intolerant of those who differ.
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary' target='_new'>Webster's

[85 Day Jerk]

Hi Micheal, the board is getting over the falling out of two groups of survivors with very different points of view.  I hope it is over, but some of the main participants of that little scirmish are now having this "holy war" and I for one think it is very cool, because some valid points are being made and people are learning something for once.

One thing that I have noticed among Survivors is that we all carry alot of pain inside our heads and our souls are lined with lead to protect whatever spirit is left that the program did not crush.  In my case, I developed a separate personality and the real me retreated so deep that I did not know who I was anymore for several years after the program.  We have a conference to look forward to and I have met with some old friends that are in a band and are interested in doing some rock n roll versions of Straight Songs.
With any luck, an informal reunion can take place and coincide with the Conference in a less stuffy setting where people will feel comfortable to step out from the shadows for some fellowship and healing.

[Tampa survivor]

Hey Bob, I could donate my canoe for the Coffepot Bayou festivities.  Maybe my boat could be the officiating platform....
Bill

[ClayL]

Micheal:

I have nothing against Christians but do think some of the fundamentalists are kooky. My wife, who goes to church every Sunday and Wednesday, seriously questions many things about Christianity. My issue is the same issue that I have had with people who tell me all the answers are in the Big Book or the Basic Text. I think that any who believe this are not living life as God intended. There are general principles to live by, but this leaves vast gray areas that require experience and doing things to discover the differences between what is right and what is moral. To blindly follow is throwing God's gift of free will back in his face. This was given to me and was the greatest thing I could have been given. To find faith, I have to do the things that require it. Reading about it in a book is cheating ones-self. Believing is knowing things are going to work out, all evidence to the contrary. The moral compass is then applied to let one know if having things work out is in ones best interest.

I do not think being a priest or minister makes one a Jesus Freak. People who have been called to this life, most are like Daniel than, ummmm Jerry Falwell. Most priests and ministers I know teach by showing, not by telling. To be honest, they are quite fun to talk to and I respect and admire them. One of them is a big time into fly-fishing but I'll bet his fish even get bigger in the retelling of the story. The ones that play golf often talk a better golf game than they play. Some of them are really good though.

CL

[ehm]

Morli,
I wish I could comfort you, but I really can't. I left Straight on St. Patrick's Day of 88, and I still contend with fears and nightmares and demons. I will not deny my fears or yours by saying that you should look on the bright side or get over it. But....

I can however say that I noticed a couple things. First the trivial, I was in Springfield, VA from Oct 86 unitl Mar 88. So it seems that you and I were simultaneously being demoralized. Anyway.

The other things I want to say I noticed are in response to your question, "when the hell will I ever feel love?" I think you know the answer to that. NOW. I assume Moobie is your fiance. He seems to be hanging in with you. And you wrote briefly and passionately about feeling your daughter's love for you.

Feeling love after the abuse we have suffered is so confusing. Believing that we are worthy of love, capable of loving, and trusting another with our self is hard for people who haven't gone through abuse. Now lets remind ourselves of what we've been through. Metalgod's word complicated is only the tip of the iceberg. Self-loathing and self-doubt are only two of the complications most of us suffer.

Some days the demons seem to win. Some days are overwhelming. Don't deny it, but try to look at your daughter and/or Moobie and say "the demons are winning. Help me fight them." That's what I do. Look at my wife and kids and say, "everything seems to suck today, and I'm a total fuck-up. Help!" They rarely disappoint me. I won't say they can always send the demons running, but they don't often lose either.

I am a religious person. I know many here are not, and that's fine. We all make our own way in the world. I tend to pray for the people on this board in a general way. Would it be to forward of me, or would it make you uncomfortable if I prayed for you specifically? I'd like to, if you don't mind.

your brother,
Michael Cadaret

Michael,
I never took the opportunity to thank you for writing that to me. Your words were very comforting, not to mention you were right on the money 100%. I didn't forget you and had been wondering where Satin had gone.(tee hee) I?ve missed hearing from you and have absolutely no problem with your faith. I do on the other hand, shut the door on Jehovah?s witnesses and the rest. I?m back on track now, after 2 months and doing really well.

While I?m speaking on this past post of mine, I?d like to add that since finding these sites I?ve been able quit drinking.

Through out my 20s I was not a heavy user of any substance. But when I turned 26, something changed in me. I was starting to lose hope of ever being happy. It was around this time that I was buying a house it St. Louis. It was large enough to rent a room to two different people, (I had a guest cottage and separate basement room) Anyway, I rented one to this guy who was really nice, and made quite a bit as a marble worker. There was just one thing however, he was and had been a heroin addict for over 8 years. I, being dumb and naïve agreed to rent to him, mainly because I found it admirable that he was honest and said he was abstaining and on a methadone program. To make a long story short I got hooked. I didn?t think I could. It started out that I found his needles. But my curiosity got the best of me and I tried it. It starts like every story you?ll ever read about junkies...I just did it on the weekends to relax at night. So innocent...yeah right. Then it?s Tuesday night and you don?t have to work the next day... so then Wednesday... He warned me several times not to do it to often or I?d form "a habit." I would laugh and say, "I?m not an addict!" (Little did I know about heroin) He wasn?t talking about the AA definition of the word addict, he was only talking about heroin addiction. (huge difference) I spent 2 years a junkie. My sadness had defeated me. Junkies come in all shapes and sizes... believe me. I kicked in ?98. I had been on methadone too for a few months before. I lost my house. I moved back to Columbia and lived with Darren. Heroin withdrawals are hard enough without the months of cravings that come after them, after the intense pain subsides,(a week or two later.) So I turned to ALCOHOL.(It's a son-of-a-bitch y'all) I became an alcoholic at age 28. I felt so hopeless and alone. Eleven years after Straight, and look at me. Life couldn?t have seemed to be worse. The shame I carried with me was so great, if it had not been for my daughter I may have given up. But I never have. I never will again.

 After Darren died, I drank more to kill the pain of his loss than anything else. With him gone I really felt I had no-one. Yet Xyla and I lived on.  

That was 2 years ago and I am happier right now than I?ve ever let myself be before. I?m free from the burden of self. I've been able to recognize that I wanted to drink when ?triggered? into a flashback. (not the  psychedelic  kind) The PTSD, kind. Learning about the reality and severity of these programs has helped me come to terms with so much. I feel that since I found out there were Survivors I have a place where I belong. The past is not confusing and heartbreaking anymore, It?s a part of what makes me the strong women I am today. The happy person I?d only dreamed of becoming, in my wildest dreams.  

sister Survivor,
Morli

[wayeast]

"The assumption that Christians lack the capacity for (or at least don't practice) critical thinking in regards to Church doctrine, understandings of God, the Scriptures, society, and our fellow human beings is patently false."  --MCadet

I disagree: the assumption may be correct, depending on your definition of Christian "faith."  For many people, faith means choosing to believe certain things, despite any evidence to the contrary. This kind of believer is saying that their perceived relationship with God trumps critical thinking.  They would say "God said it, I believe it, that settles it."  They see the rest of us in one of two ways.  We might be obstacles to their faith.  Or we might be potential converts who have been deceived by the world and who are sitting around waiting for some believer to set us free by "sharing his faith."

On the other hand, there are others who define faith as trusting God Himself (or Herself) to see them through the hard times.  They focus on their perceived relationship with God, and while they still hold onto dogma, their reality isn't destroyed if the facts prove them wrong every now and then. They are capable of believing the rest of us are simply wrong, without necessarily believing we must be either spiritually deceived or willfully evil.

I think it would be a catastrophic mistake to assume that all Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Wiccans, or atheists are either the first kind of believer or the second.  There's always a mix, as tempting as it sometimes is to categorize people.

Straight, by the way, required us all to be the first kind of believer.  No doubting, no dissension, no freedom of thought.  The god in question was Straight, rather than Jesus, but the principles still apply.