Carlbrook thread Part 2

[psy]

"Tell it all brother"...  What does that song mean to you?

Honestly, I remember it being a workshop song, and that the room was dark, and I was probably crying because I was recounting some experience that I hadn't thought about for a long time.

I left a lot of my experience there. I took what I needed, threw away the rest, and integrated it with what I've come to learn about myself since then.

Have you ever tried to listen to that song?  It's by Kenny Rogers.

That is an example of what Robert Lifton called the "cult of confession"...  Ever wonder why you remember so little?

How sure are you?  I thought that as well until talking to my parents in detail, and realizing I didn't get many of the letters they sent me.

Pretty damned sure.....my parents always asked about the letters/packages in our phone calls. And we were never barred from our phone calls. I was "on bans" with talking for two weeks while on my program and had to write everything I would have said to anyone...teachers, my student supports, advisers, everyone.

LOL... I was on bans too.. a lot.  Had to do the same thing (scribble down notes)

However, I was still allowed to breach that for my calls.

Please do.  I am a rock... you know the shtick.  It's all the same in all the programs.  However, there is a sceptical parent reading, who I tried to convince of this, but she still remains sceptical.


From personal experience.. I know it's hard to write about, remember, or really even think about... But if you can , please.  I'd like to hear about it, and it might open the eyes of a few people.

Like I mentioned earlier, I was an "Omega Male". I was subservient, pleasing, accomodating, and had no personality of my own. I was a social chameleon (fake)

When did you figure that out?  Program?

Are you saying that you were fake?  that program helped you to be willing to show the "real you" to others?  Did you "put up walls" and "wear masks"?

That is what Ofshe might described as an attack on self-image.  During the teenage years, when you are still figuring out who you are, of course you are confused.  All the easier to meddle with your identity.  No you don't notice it.

I felt like I was discovering who I really was, that I was finally ready and willing, and "not afraid anymore" to show the "real me"...

After 5 years of thinking about it... I realize the "mask" i took off, was actually my face, and let it decay while I forgot who I really was.  

It is natural to be scared, natural to be afraid, to have defense mechanisms under stressful situations.  They wanted you to trust them enough to be vulnerable with them.

because that's what I thought I had to do to be accepted/loved. Three workshops didn't change a thing, even though my friends/peers/staff would call me on it all the time.

Then one day my adviser called me out in group. She told me that I had been doing the bare minimum to get by, trying to bullshit the program and what not. And it was affecting my social life. People can smell lack of self-worth a mile away, and it's toxic. You don't want that on your life. It's needy and overbearing.

And she was right. I can safely say, three years after having graduated, and completely turning both my social life and my scholastic life around, that she was right.

So she put me on a program. I still went to school and what not, but when I wasn't in school, I was sitting at a program desk, on bans with everyone but my supports, and had to do writing assignments and write in an emotional journal. I also had to read The Five Love Languages for Teens......and my advisers made my parents do it too. My mother did, my father didn't.

At least in my experience, they try and convince students they are changing... So they won't start a crusade... Have you talked to recent graduates?  My guess is that nothing ha (or will) change.  It hasn't cince CEDU's inception... and it won't.  It works (makes money)... why break it.

Well, when the current student came to visit Rutgers, they had already implemented parts of it. Groups focused on reintegration, as well as classes and such. Yeah, it might be a half-hearted effort, but it's something.

Ok... Could you describe an example of "no bullshit honesty".

"I'm sick of seeing you act like you don't deserve the people in your life. The rest of your friends are sick of it too. You know what? Just because you tell yourself that you're not worth us, doesn't mean you get to take it out on us."

That's an example.

One of the standards for group was "no personal attacks and no attacks on things the recipient of the feedback can change. This was strongly enforced, and generally made for safer groups.

Do you feel you have an almost paranormal insight into other people's heads?  Can you tell when they're lying?  (You can't con a con)...

Do you feel you discovered a "new you".. or that you took off masks you wore before program?

In a sense. I found a genuine sense of confidence/self respect, something that I
a. hadn't experienced before
b. hasn't left me since I graduated.

I don't know about you, but it's pretty damned real to me.

It seemed real to me too.  It's been 5 years for me...  Things change.

Were you encouraged to rewrite your "Life story"?  Multiple times?

Was what you wrote accepted... or did you have to put down what they wanted to hear to progress?

Did you ever believe what you put down?  Was it true?  What is truth to you?  Is it what others see, or what you know?  What do you know?  Did fiction become reality?  What were the facts?

I think I know what you're getting at, and you really do have my sincerest condolences that your program was twisted like that.

However, I never wrote my life story. It was never doubted, and I the only times I ever saw life stories called into question was when outlandish claims were made.....like a 15 yr old 5'0" tiny white boy from the suburbs claiming to be a member of "The Folk" (Crips)

They made a guess, and you had to accept it... How deeply did you accept it.  Pretending enough.... eventually you aren't pretending anymore.

I'm not sure that they did make a guess. Every person's growth was self guided. Generally, that was accepted. They were on the money when they told me what I could be.

Well.. They were not psychic, and they were not psychologists (I looked into this).  So they were guessing essentially, but with a great deal of confidence.  Could you dissent?  Realistically, if they said something about you, and you disagreed... who would win.  In that manner, I am implying, you were influenced.

"Fake it 'till you make it."

I heard that a lot. I assume that's what you're referring to. Yeah, I tried that. It didn't work until I actually believed that I was worth more than begging for people's scraps of attention.

If there's one thing easier to spot than someone who has no self-respect, its someone who's trying to fake that they do.

What is self-respect to you?

Did you consider yourself "fake" before program?

You seem to like the adcisors you were in your workshops with.  I'm not surprised.  Ever wonder why every student's favorite counselor/advisor is the workshop one?

Well, when I was there, I was on fairly good terms with most of the staff. Yeah, they called me out, but it almost seemed policy to never hold grudges.

As it was in CEDU's cult predecessor, Synanon.  That is where the group dynamic came from (Synanon's "Game").

There were points where I was way out of standard, and I was caught/called out/hollered at for it. But once they had made their point clear, there were no "bad terms".

Could you disagree?  Who won?  Every time?

What if they were wrong?  And they won?  Every time?

What if it didn't matter whether it was true or not... just whether you accepted it?

My experience of the staff was that they generally weren't petty like that. I've seen advisers called out in group before; either being asked to talk about themselves or to expose an underlying feeling of resentment on the part of a student. Lines of communication weren't closed.

But they were controlled...

[psy]

Well...  We know now that The CEDU workshops are identical to those at CB (similar to Benchmark).

I'm very interested in what is "honesty" as well...  This is most likely an example of what Lifton called "loading the language".  Take note.... My guess is that honesty is something like "the harsher the truth to tell, the truer the friend who tells it"... and likewise, friendship is redefined as well ("you are your brothers keeper"(monitor, rat, snitch))...  Brotherly love indeed.

Do those phraises sounds familiar?

how about "this is the first day of the rest of your life"?

Do you know how that phraise got into CEDU/Carlbrook?  Where it came from?

The whole "harder truth" thing, in what I had seen of it, is something I practice in my daily life now. I have close friends now that that I can tell harder truths too. If my close friend is acting ridiculous, I will definitely hand them my two cents. That is what true friendship is. If you can't be honest with people you claim to care about, then who can you be honest with.

If you felt a friend was "fake", would you tell him/her?  Are you psychic?  Were the staff?  Do you see a pattern?

Is it possible, that everybody was "fake"?

Being my brother's keeper?

Well, the whole "holding each other accountable" thing......there was a lot of that. However, I've seen people being called out (by both students and staff) for being a standards Nazi and a suck up. That was for the smaller stuff, like tucking in shirts, swearing, cutting across the grass.....

For the bigger stuff...well, I don't really remember. But I think I would've piped up if I walked in on two people doing lines in the bathroom. I was/am a proponent of the "safety" of a school. When shit like that starts, the whole environment is shattered and nobody is going to get anything accomplished. That's just my opinion though.

Well of course people doing lines in the bathroom would be somethign to raise an eyebrow about...  But the level of control, of rules you are describing, is an example of a totalistic envriornment.  Most of the rules (bans, silly stuff) were not there to make sense, but there to get you to obey rules that did not make sense.. to obey without question.  It's a conditioning process.

Were you encouraged to reform your values?  To write your "code of ethics" down?

[Oz girl]

Can you tell us a bit about what the workshops entailed?

[psy]

This statement about workshops:  True or false:

You were made to feel as miserable as possible (confessions, digging up childhood trauma) for the express purpose of comforting you...  To build up an artificial sense of camaraderie, loyalty, and love towards your advisory/counselor and the rest of the group.

[irvbulldogs72]

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[irvbulldogs72]

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[psy]

You're right. It was a controlled environment. Completely artificial. Hell, Grant (Price, co-founder and Cascade grad) even told us that. Everything was controlled. However, you seem to be alluding to the fact that I was brainwashed to a degree. I'd say that I wasn't, but that looks to have the makings of a cyclic argument.

I won't say you were brainwashed.  That is for you to decide.  Let's face it, if you are/were, you wouldn't know it.

However, I can retort to the sense of fakeness/real me and all of that jazz. This is going to be a lot of disclosure, but it's somewhat necessary for me to explain to you my side of this.

Funny enough, before I even was sent away, I got into a verbal argument with some girl at my high school, and she called me out for being fake and always trying to impress people with bullshit. Yeah, that shut me right the fuck up.

Through my years in middle/high school, I rolled with the right crowd, but I was their scapegoat. I let them use/abuse me in exchange for their acceptance. I "knew" I was expendable to them, and that they just let me hang around for my overeagerness to finance things for them. I had, half-heartedly once, and seriously once, attempted to commit suicide at points in high school, and of course, played that "If I die, who'll be at my funeral, and more importantly, who'll cry."

It would suffice to say I was emo; just a few crap bands and shitty poetry away from painting my nails black. That's what I define as lacking self respect.

How does painting your nails black show a lack of self-respect?

I was insecure, and I hated it. I knew that even before I was sent away. That, for the most part, is gone now. I have good friends; people I trust. I don't worry that my parents are going to up and stop loving me because I screw up, and they actually are interested in my happiness, not just my grades.

I'm not sure why you need me to justify my satisfaction with my life, but there it is.

I suspect you'll have information to dispel some of this, and I'd like to hear it.

Well I'm not trying to argue with you at all.  I'm just asking questions.  Occasionally, I might share similar experiences or comment on the structure of the program...  In no manner, am I trying to ask you to justify your satisfaction with life.

During my teens, I was insecure.  I was just forming my identity, becoming independant, breaking away from my parents.  Everybody hurts sometimes.  I was "goth" (now called "emo")... as well.  To a large extent, I still am (in terms of philosophy, not dress).  It helped me, through art, introspection, and "crappy poetry" to explore myself, an not be afraid to show that externally.  Acting class also helped.

Goth, to me, meant accepting people who for who they were, not demanding change, letting people grow on their own.  It meant accepting that the world sucks, that it's fucked up, that there is no point pretending that things are fine when they're not.  It was about introspection, self-exploration, and a willingness to show who you are artistically, externally, without being afraid of the condemnation of others.  Granted, this was the goth movement in Ireland, and probably a bit more mature than that in the US.

In any case, the goth/emo movement is very artistic, and I find art to be a very therapeutic thing.  I don't feel the movement is nearly as harmful as many make it out to be.

In program, I was told such things were to cover up who I really was... That I was fake.  At first, I resisted it.  I did not progress.  I couldn't make it unless i "worked the program" (saying "i'm fake...").  Long story short... Eventually, I "accepted the truth" and had a dramatic realization: I really was wearing masks.  All that stuff from before was just a safety blanket that I clung to.  In reality, They just wanted to sever any anchor I had to self-concept.  I realized this in part before I started research (suspected it, journaled about it...)... and after reading about how brainwashing actually works, I realized that portraying who I was as "fake" was integral to program's design for thought reform.  I also researched into CEDU, and it's roots and discovered that I was not the only person to make these observations.   when many different people come to the same conclusion independantly, it probably is worth looking into.  I don't expect, or want you to say "oh my god, that is what happend to me"... If it did, you must, as I did, come to that conclusion on your own.  If you like, I can point you towards some research that might make you ask a few questions.

Self confidence?  After program, I felt I was more confident.  In a sense, i was.  I was more confident that "if i believed it, i could make it happen"...  I was, on the other hand, less confident to be myself.  At the same time, I thought I was the "real me".

If you want to talk about this on the phone.. gimme a call at 571 277 5341

[psy]

This statement about workshops:  True or false:

You were made to feel as miserable as possible (confessions, digging up childhood trauma) for the express purpose of comforting you...  To build up an artificial sense of camaraderie, loyalty, and love towards your advisory/counselor and the rest of the group.

Slow down buddy. It's taking me a while to catch up and respond to these posts.

Sorry.  I'll go study for a bit and  come back.  Take your time at responding.  Don't feel rushed or pressured, and you don't have to answer anything if it's too personal.  This isn't group.  You can say "i don't feel like talking about that".

And in response to that, no. Not at all. I wasn't close to some of the members of my peer group. Hell, I straight up publicly disliked some of them And I didn't feel any closer to those specific people after we had gone through the workshop. And there were staff members that had supported workshops for me, (These I do remember) that I wasn't any closer too after I had gone through said workshops.

I can say that yes, we did dig up trauma. However, I call that healing, as do most of the people who I've gotten close enough to share both my experience and the more sordid parts of my life with.

Self disclosure always makes people feel better.  There is no question about that...  But the purpose behind it, is not always as benign..

just read with an open mind (particularly, "Demand for purity" and "cult of confession")

Synanon, CEDU's predicessor(source: Slavitz), had all of those 8 elements(source: Ofshe, Singer) described in that paper.

[nimdA]

On a simpler note perhaps you might elaborate on your reasons for not suggesting the program to others?

[irvbulldogs72]

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[psy]

Well... After a very lengthy phone conversation, I've come to the conclusion that Carlbrook is "CEDU lite".  It shares the structure, but the severity is toned down.  This probably has to do with somewhat more qualified staff.

That being said, it's still thought reform in my opinion.  You must accept, or you don't progress.

Info for irvbulldogs72:

General brainwashing:
Lifton's Principles
Ofshe and Singer describe second gen thought reform (us)
note... above Ofshe link just edited... if you clicked it... click again

Workshop information:
Out of the wacky sixties (written by an educational consultant who thinks Synanon, est, Lifespring, and probably Dianetics (Hail Xenu!!!), are the cutting edge of modern therapy)
Ofshe and Singer's APA report on LGATs (est, Lifespring, et al.)

I'd be interested in the similarites between the principles described, and Carlbrook.  Thanks for your info.  Gotta go study though... I'll be on tomorrow sometime or later tonight.

[irvbulldogs72]

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[nimdA]

Okay, my conversation with psy, and some of the things I've read have been bothering me and keeping me up. Well that, and someone posted a random scream image in one of the threads that I was reading around 3:30. My speakers were turned all the way up. It howled like the bejeezus and my asshole's been clenched ever since. So yeah, I'm a little on edge

chuckles.. That is the scream of tortured children that follows the poster named the Who around the forums to remind him of his sins.

Actually it is a voice segment taken off a porno film involving an acteress named Cream Pie Cathy and Big Ron. The first time I heard it my earns rang for about an hour afterwards.

Excellent retelling of your journal workshops.

What is your impression of Grant Price?

[nimdA]

You go in, there's music and your supporting advisers. You assign yourself a Truth (what is true about me), get a workshop journal (I don't believe these are ever read by staff) and then start learning some tools.

Where were the journals kept and what exactly are these tools? One of the recurring themes on these forums by program supporters is their children or the program attendant claims to have learned tools. Yet for some reason they have very little success in explaining what these tools are.

Could you elaborate for us?

Also psy is a pretty smart fellow and if he thinks those links are worth looking over I'd say its a good bet that they are worth looking over. I personally tend to rely on my own experience as a staff member rather than academic papers, but then I'm not so very interested in the theory behind it all either. I'm more of a hands on sort that focuses on the practical nuts and bolts of programs.

So in conclusion, give them a read it really couldn't hurt.

[irvbulldogs72]

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