The Reality of Fornits

[Anonymous]

My experience of hot-button discussions is that people only give a fuck about your fucking language when they're fucking losing the fucking debate.

It's the "Hi, I'm a concerned parent" verzhun uf the intirnet speling flaim.

I'm a parent too. I rarely use vulgar language in front of children. If I've just stubbed my toe, or whacked my thumb with a hammer, though, all bets are off.

The entire world doesn't get censored to Disney cartoon standards because there are little kids who live in the world. Little kids do not read Fornits--they'd find it boring as hell.

The language flamers know this---they're just program parents (or owners, or staff) who know they've lost the debate and are grasping at straws.

On the other hand, emphatic language has major communication value if you do it right--which is another reason why the program parents (or owners, or staff) jump on "vulgarity" and hammer it.

Again, internet version of a spelling flame.

I'm a professional author--a bestselling one. I can express myself with or without any handful of words you can name (besides the basic essentials of the English language, of course). I also have a pretty damned good idea of what language is most persuasive in a particular argument to a particular audience.

Vulgar words are just more colors and shades and hues in my paintbox, waiting for the printed page.

The Program begs to be discussed in vulgar and even obscene language, because it is a vulgar, obscene, monstrously abusive industry. There is no language more vulgar and obscene than the reality of the Program itself.

I say "The Program" because there really is only one--it simply has different lace, sequins, brocades and trims stitched over the ugly reality in its different incarnations----putting pig shit in a satin hat box---to make it appear more palatable.

We middle-aged old fogies criticize potty-mouthed comedians saying, "They just use bad language to shock people."

Does my language when I discuss the Program sometimes shock people? Then they damned well need to be shocked, because the Program itself is a more horrific obscenity than any mere word I or anyone else could ever utter.

If reading the word "fuck" shakes some parent or out of his complacency long enough to get his kid out of the program and back home where he can get competent, ethical help, then I will fucking say the fucking word until the fucking cows come home.

Do I think that vulgar language actually makes people more likely to be persuaded by my arguments? Used right, I damn well know it does. Why? Because it's my job and I'm good at it.

So let's all get over the language red herring. I read what others write on Fornits. People may bitch about it, but they do notice it---and they notice many of those posts more than if the very same thing had been said in insipid, dulcet tones sans all those nasty words. In fighting the Program, the harsh language on Fornits usually does more good than harm. By a longshot.

Vulgarity? It has its place, and this is it.

Julie Cochrane

[Anonymous]

I'm getting really, really sick of this "they're growing" or "they're socially acceptable" or "it's the next logical option". Bullshit!

In fact, it is socially and logically impossible for it to be the next logical option, simply because of the price tag. Professional child abuse is expensive, and most of the fuckheads out there are perfectly content to do it themselves.

Show me one good, solid piece of evidence (I'd love to see someone do that psychiatrist thing on even a small sample size) that this industry is growing, or growing at the rate that people have been claiming, over the last five years. Back the claim up. Count heads. Of course, that is an impossible request; only the industry has those numbers, and anything that comes from them- even unofficially- is liable to be bullshit.

Remember, a lot of the "new" programs are just old, defeated ones repackaged. The industry numbers- if they're just not making them up- are probably still counting Casa By The Sea and Moravia Academy. There are shutdowns that Fornits never hears about. There are lawsuits that never reach the news. Consider HLA. HLA is bleeding to death- this is common knowledge around here- but if you looked to them as a source of info, you'd think they were going strong. They're not.

Again I point to the fact that the APA and the Surgeon General both disapprove. A crowd of idiots on some daytime talk show, who have no idea what they're doing and don't care, does not a majority make.

If there is one thing I'd like to direct at Fornits, the one message I hope to really get through people's heads, it is this: Shut up, quit whining, get your nose to the grindstone like DJ and Deb have, and start ripping these places to bits.

I actually find the concern over profanity to be a useful litmus test. If you're more worried about the profanity than the child abuse, there's something fucking wrong with you.

[the sunday stealer]

I'm getting really, really sick of this "they're growing" or "they're socially acceptable" or "it's the next logical option". Bullshit!

The truth hurts.

In fact, it is socially and logically impossible for it to be the next logical option, simply because of the price tag. Professional child abuse is expensive, and most of the fuckheads out there are perfectly content to do it themselves.

The juvie justice system has programs too, not sure why they don't get discussed here more often. Just as much abuse occurs in them. But hey, it ain't white kids so who gives a shit.

Show me one good, solid piece of evidence (I'd love to see someone do that psychiatrist thing on even a small sample size) that this industry is growing, or growing at the rate that people have been claiming, over the last five years.

Lets take the obvious example, WWASPS. If anyone should be shut down, it's them. The amount of negative press, shut downs, legal inquiries, the shit that's happened to them. They shouldn't exist. They've doubled in size over the past five years. They have netter hundreds of millions of dollars over that time and effectively passed legislation in a state called Montana perpetuating their SCL program. Proof? It's staring us in the face.

Back the claim up. Count heads. Of course, that is an impossible request; only the industry has those numbers, and anything that comes from them- even unofficially- is liable to be bullshit.

Any investor worth his salt can tell study a company and find whether they are growing, shrinking, worth investing in, not investing in. Right now this industry is paying gold dirt, and there is a gold rush on to build these programs all over the place. WWASPS has shown us how to build a financial and power empire on troubled teens. There's a pile of gold out there in the form of parents who don't have the time or patience to deal with their teen, and don't mind spending 4 grand a month to pay someone else to do it. Now my generation is having children. I have enough friends to know that their kids are going to end up in programs, you can spot the families a mile away.

Remember, a lot of the "new" programs are just old, defeated ones repackaged. The industry numbers- if they're just not making them up- are probably still counting Casa By The Sea and Moravia Academy.

Casa has been reopened and is now currenly operating! WWASPS has opened more programs than have been shut down.

uoThere are shutdowns that Fornits never hears about. There are lawsuits that never reach the news.

New programs also don't make the news, and are less likely to.

Consider HLA. HLA is bleeding to death- this is common knowledge around here- but if you looked to them as a source of info, you'd think they were going strong. They're not.

How big is HLA? How many kids go there? Does it make parents less or more comfortable to seek help in an industry that seems to be doing a lot of fight abuse. When in reality, the effort is tiny. A program here and there are attacked by disgruntled parents. Most aren't.

Again I point to the fact that the APA and the Surgeon General both disapprove. A crowd of idiots on some daytime talk show, who have no idea what they're doing and don't care, does not a majority make.

So you think the Surgeon General has more in common with most parents than does Dr Phil, Maury or Oprah? Who's advice do you think more people listen to. How many people do you think even know the name of the Surgeon General?

If there is one thing I'd like to direct at Fornits, the one message I hope to really get through people's heads, it is this: Shut up, quit whining, get your nose to the grindstone like DJ and Deb have, and start ripping these places to bits.

Oh.. so that's why you post here, to motivate everyone? lol...

I actually find the concern over profanity to be a useful litmus test. If you're more worried about the profanity than the child abuse, there's something fucking wrong with you.

Hey we agree on something.

[Ganja]

My experience of hot-button discussions is that people only give a fuck about your fucking language when they're fucking losing the fucking debate.

Awwwww, dude! :rofl:

That is priceless! :nworthy:

Sorry... I mean that is FUCKING priceless. ::bwahaha::

[Ganja]

The Program begs to be discussed in vulgar and even obscene language, because it is a vulgar, obscene, monstrously abusive industry. There is no language more vulgar and obscene than the reality of the Program itself.

I say "The Program" because there really is only one--it simply has different lace, sequins, brocades and trims stitched over the ugly reality in its different incarnations----putting pig shit in a satin hat box---to make it appear more palatable.

Awesome!!! :tup:

[Ursus]

My experience of hot-button discussions is that people only give a fuck about your fucking language when they're fucking losing the fucking debate.

It's the "Hi, I'm a concerned parent" verzhun uf the intirnet speling flaim.

I'm a parent too. I rarely use vulgar language in front of children. If I've just stubbed my toe, or whacked my thumb with a hammer, though, all bets are off.

The entire world doesn't get censored to Disney cartoon standards because there are little kids who live in the world. Little kids do not read Fornits--they'd find it boring as hell.

The language flamers know this---they're just program parents (or owners, or staff) who know they've lost the debate and are grasping at straws.

On the other hand, emphatic language has major communication value if you do it right--which is another reason why the program parents (or owners, or staff) jump on "vulgarity" and hammer it.

Again, internet version of a spelling flame.

I'm a professional author--a bestselling one. I can express myself with or without any handful of words you can name (besides the basic essentials of the English language, of course). I also have a pretty damned good idea of what language is most persuasive in a particular argument to a particular audience.

Vulgar words are just more colors and shades and hues in my paintbox, waiting for the printed page.

The Program begs to be discussed in vulgar and even obscene language, because it is a vulgar, obscene, monstrously abusive industry. There is no language more vulgar and obscene than the reality of the Program itself.

I say "The Program" because there really is only one--it simply has different lace, sequins, brocades and trims stitched over the ugly reality in its different incarnations----putting pig shit in a satin hat box---to make it appear more palatable.

We middle-aged old fogies criticize potty-mouthed comedians saying, "They just use bad language to shock people."

Does my language when I discuss the Program sometimes shock people? Then they damned well need to be shocked, because the Program itself is a more horrific obscenity than any mere word I or anyone else could ever utter.

If reading the word "fuck" shakes some parent or out of his complacency long enough to get his kid out of the program and back home where he can get competent, ethical help, then I will fucking say the fucking word until the fucking cows come home.

Do I think that vulgar language actually makes people more likely to be persuaded by my arguments? Used right, I damn well know it does. Why? Because it's my job and I'm good at it.

So let's all get over the language red herring. I read what others write on Fornits. People may bitch about it, but they do notice it---and they notice many of those posts more than if the very same thing had been said in insipid, dulcet tones sans all those nasty words. In fighting the Program, the harsh language on Fornits usually does more good than harm. By a longshot.

Vulgarity? It has its place, and this is it.

Julie Cochrane

Sorry, I had to repeat this in its entirety.  I don't want anyone to miss it.  It is absolutely priceless.  I gotta print this out.

[Anonymous]

But hey, it ain't white kids so who gives a shit.

The reverse is true: Consider Martin Lee Anderson. The NAACP went absolutely apeshit. If it wasn't for that (well, that and the video), it probably would have been swept under the rug as sickle-cell anemia.

WWASPS... doubled in size over the past five years.

I don't see any proof staring me in the face. Where are you getting your data? Demonstrate why you believe this is true. Give me some links to work with here. I'm not posting this as some argumentative programmie but because I really want to know where this evidence comes from.

Any investor worth his salt can tell study a company and find whether they are growing, shrinking, worth investing in, not investing in.

Non sequitur. These people don't exactly post 10Qs or show up in the NYSE. (Which reminds me- why don't any of these private places ever act like a serious business and post a fucking IPO?)  I will grant that some larger conglomerates have bought up some programs, but is that just because the price was right (dirt cheap) or because they really think it's a growth industry?

I have enough friends to know that their kids are going to end up in programs, you can spot the families a mile away.

Those people are your friends? (With friends like those, who needs enemies?) What's more, you honestly believe that they're going to do it, and you're not warning them by sending them to Fornits or ISAC?

--

For fuck's sake Sky, before you even waste time replying to me, make a list of your friends and start thinking about how you're going to approach them with the ungodly truth. And if you can't, they're not exactly your friends, are they?

--

in an industry that seems to be doing a lot of fight abuse.

Don't be a moron. The industry isn't doing shit. It's the posters here that are on the attack. Read the HLA board.

So you think the Surgeon General has more in common with most parents than does Dr Phil, Maury or Oprah?

In a way, yes.

Look, we all love to go around and insult all the fucking retards in the world by saying that they'll do whatever their talk-show lords tell them. It doesn't quite work that way. Most of the talk-show watchers love to see it happening to someone else's kids. It's bread and circuses, nothing more. Since when has anything Oprah said accomplished anything at all?

[the sunday stealer]

Look I am not going to get into some statistical theoretical debate about supposed 'data'.  If you have another view than me, that's great. I disagree with it. I think you just got to the base of everest and are telling everyone the hard part is over. Look up for god sakes, you haven't even started climbing the mountain. I am not saying stop, I am saying, look up and appreciate what is ahead. Don't lie to people.

You can make it seem like posting on fornits is some sort of noble cause. I don't pretend that it is, the real work is done in real life talking to real people, writing hand written letters, not confronting people on a forum or signing online petitions or mass emails.

But go get back on that horse, white knight, lead the troops to victory in your online war against programs.

[Ganja]

I have to admit that I appreciate the sarcasm, no offense to anyone.

[Anonymous]

Look I am not going to get into some statistical theoretical debate about supposed 'data'.

Which means that you have nothing to say except "they're just so biiiig!" dogshit.

If using the Internet is such a waste of time (as if it wasn't just a communications medium like any other), and you've got all these friends who you just know are going to send their kids away, then stop wasting your fucking time talking to me, and start working on these fucking friends of yours.

Isn't that the next logical step?

[the sunday stealer]

Which means that you have nothing to say except "they're just so biiiig!" dogshit.

No it means I am not TheWho, or some other weirdo who sit around endlessly debating numbers than mean shit to nobody.

If using the Internet is such a waste of time (as if it wasn't just a communications medium like any other),

No, I said it's a waste of time if you are doing what you are doing, which is basically nothing. Who is Milk? Nobody knows. You have never said one thing about yourself. You are an endless commentator about everyone else's experiences. Never once have you posted about your own life. Everything with you is fiction, fantasy and theoretical. Some of us who lived it and are in real life contact with dozens of other survivors just don't want to waste our time playing math wizz with the likes of you. Does that makes sense? I am not slamming deborah, or buzzkill or others who use the internet ina  positive way to spread information and do research. I am slightng people like you who use it for no other reason to involve themselves in something for their own twisted needs.

and you've got all these friends who you just know are going to send their kids away, then stop wasting your fucking time talking to me, and start working on these fucking friends of yours.Isn't that the next logical step?

Real life people don't enjoy talking child abuse 24/7 over the coffee table. They know what happened to me. There children are just now being born. My point was they fit the socio-economic profile of potential program parents. Hopefully their kids will not need programs. But judging by their selfishness, ambition and dismissive attitude of what I tell them, who knows. But I know what you were trying to say, if I don't use every spare moment of my time to spread the gospel about private child abuse I am somehow lacking in authenticity.

See, in my opinion, one guest program survivor who tells their program experience is worth ten thousand of your posts. If I wanted to hear a commentator, I'd turn on Bill O'Reilly. I come to this forum to discuss and talk with other people who have been through this industry as a kid or parent or both. The bystanders, I don't feel any obligation to prove anything to you and your judgments ring completely hollow.

Thousands of posts and I don't even know if you are a boy or girl, man or woman, teen or adult. But now you will tell us how this carefully concocted show of yours with complete cast of characters is in truth to help the kids, right? You are trying to show the parents how c.r.a.z.y this industry is by pretending to be kids who want to kill their parents? Or by exaggerating every claim to the umpteenth degree to try and prove your point? One sentence of experience in a program or as a program parent, speaks louder than novels full of your fictional crap ever will.

[Anonymous]

Do you feel better now?