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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2007, 07:25:57 PM »
The system funnels kids towards programs and incarceration, not the other way around. To seek help from the very system that endorses and funds programs can seem like a hollow availability.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2007, 10:29:38 PM »
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""


things (like passing this crap down to your own children) are

things are

Actually... "doing things" is the subject, and is singular...

Doing things IS...

It's weird, though..almost weird enough to make me doubt whether that's right..
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2007, 10:35:40 PM »
Quote from: ""exhausted""
Okay so the programs may/may not be dangerous, but it scares me to think of a kid running away and being alone out in the woods etc at night, what if they get bit by a snake or stuck in quicksand or something, there are a lot of what if's

Not all the kids are street-wise & we as adults would know to keep their head up and walk confidentally, but a kid wouldn't, it takes some serious bottle to even think about taking on any of these suggestions

There should be a place they can go in every town - but what does a 14 year old do once they've got away? They can't work, live alone, they won't trust anyone and will stick out like a sore thumb

It's a great ideal, but not a realistic one imo, it's just too scary as to what can happen

What's your point?
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Offline mbnh31782

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« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2007, 01:03:06 AM »
at my 3 springs facility, staff were required to turn in their keys to be locked up during the time they were on duty.  I never did and i had extra keys with me at all times incase admin found out i actually had my keys with me.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2007, 01:24:07 AM »
Quote from: ""exhausted""
Agreed

Are you telling me there is no helpline for kids in trouble where you are?  :(

here we have childline, it's free to call, the kid only has to pick up any phone and someone will help them


Exhausted, let me tell you something of exhaustion. As a teenager held captive in a program, I split 3 times and went hitchhiking around the country before I was close enough to the age of majority that I felt it was a fairly safe bet to go to the authorities and ply for the rest of the time I needed that way. All kinds of well intended adults tried in earnest to keep me "safe" by bringing me in off of "the streets" and state custody. They all assured me that I was nuckin futz at the moment and would come to agree with them once I got older/stable/sane or whatever it was they thought I needed to be to see things their way.

Well, now I'm older, stable, sane as anybody. I still don't see things their way. Granted, there were certain dangers involved in hitchhiking around the country. But I had enough autonomy to defend myself from would be attackers. In the program, my benevolent group busted my bones and warped my mind. Outside, on "the streets", I simply stepped off and/or hit back and ran if someone made me uncomfortable or actually tried to hurt me.

World of difference there. Hands down, no question, while I wasn't "safe" in the euphemistic way you're after for your kid, I was safeer out than in.

First time, I went to a church, who returned me to the program via my parents.

Next time, I went to a halfway house, who returned me to the program via my sister then my parents.

Last time, I went to my brother, who agreed to put me up till my birthday. The Program ppl managed to get a juvy judge in Florida to sign an extradition order (a fucking extradition order!!!) to bring me back to  Florida for the 'crime' of being a chronic runaway.

Last fucking thing in the world I would suggest a kid fleeing physical and mental torture do is call the authorities!
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline exhausted

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« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2007, 05:03:36 AM »
Cassandra

Childline isn't an authority, they are a charity set up to help abused kids out of the situation, they do deal with kids who other issues other than abuse but that is the main reason for them being there

If you had childline in USA they would never in a million years throw you back into the lion's den, in the UK, to place you in a program you don't want to be in would be considered abusive - even social services who are government run, won't take kids at a parent's request no matter how much the parent needs a break or whatever reason they have without the child's consent

There are so many kids out here that are carers for their parents, they don't get help, they can be as young as 8 years old and still have to deal with it, they don't get a break from the constant day in, day out caring responsibilities they have - a policeman friend was telling me recently of a 13 year old girl he has to deal with regularly who is caring for a junkie mum, her 4 younger brothers and sisters who are totally wild and running riot and the girl is expecting a baby herself, social services see she is managing and don't want to know, a pregnant 13 year old caring for 4 other kids and an adult??? It's so wrong on so many levels. If she was being abused sexually, she'd be taken into care and released into the world at 16 years of age - imo she is being abused mentally
I know of another girl who is 14 years old caring for her younger family and mum who hasd had a breakdown, what the hell does a 14 year old know about breakdowns and child rearing? the poor kid is beside herself because she doesn't know what to do - no help there either......

But childline are always on the end of the phone 24/7, these girls can pick up the phone for advice, just to talk and childline will often be able to put them in touch with agencies who will give them numbers of agencies who can give them some respite, agencies no-one knows about until someone happens to mention them.

So they wouldn't be fleeing any authorities, just turning to a charitable lending hand, in fact after reading your posts here, I have a mind to get in contact with Childline and see if they can't come to this forum and make an effort to get themnselves over to America so kids DO have someone to turn to.

TSW - I can speak for myself, there was a point to my post - the point being that as much as I find it scary what kids go through in programs, I find it scary they'd find themselves with no money, no ID, no resources on the streets/in the woods and so on, that's what this thread is about right?
It makes me sick that these kids' own families would turn them away to have them put back inot an abusive situation, if any of my cousins/friends kids came to me with a problem, I'd help them out without hesitation
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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2007, 05:26:14 AM »
Quote
I have a mind to get in contact with Childline and see if they can't come to this forum and make an effort to get themnselves over to America so kids DO have someone to turn to.


That has the potential of going both ways. What may be advocacy in one country could easily change to complicity in another, if the right pressure is applied. Dynamics can change drastically once the context is.
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Offline exhausted

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« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2007, 05:36:04 AM »
I disagree, I can't see Childline ever agreeing to place kids back inot an abusive situation, they certainly wouldn't be blinded by anything they were told, they'd do their research first, they aren't interested in what the parents want, what the government want, they are interested in stopping child abuse

period
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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2007, 05:48:49 AM »
Things can go ugly with even the most well-intentioned folks. Not that I would know anything about that.

Taking a socialized service from a socialized country and migrating it to a largely capitalist one is most likely going to compromise it, because the organization will have to make its own compromises in order to remain intact. It WILL change. For better or worse. My vote is the latter. Conflicts of interest are the American way.

Personally, I don't think it would even be possible for them to establish themselves here. Square peg, round hole. And any American-initiated clone of the organization is going to bear little resemblance.

I'm not saying that America is the all-evil corruptible whatever... it's just different. Childline would simply manifest itself differently here.

Don't get me wrong, I would love for there to be a place that abused kids can turn to, or a Harriet Tubman underground railroad for TBS survivors and runaways. Won't happen.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2007, 06:35:21 AM »
Quote from: ""exhausted""
Cassandra

Childline isn't an authority, they are a charity set up to help abused kids out of the situation, they do deal with kids who other issues other than abuse but that is the main reason for them being there

If you had childline in USA they would never in a million years throw you back into the lion's den, in the UK, to place you in a program you don't want to be in would be considered abusive - even social services who are government run, won't take kids at a parent's request no matter how much the parent needs a break or whatever reason they have without the child's consent

There are so many kids out here that are carers for their parents, they don't get help, they can be as young as 8 years old and still have to deal with it, they don't get a break from the constant day in, day out caring responsibilities they have - a policeman friend was telling me recently of a 13 year old girl he has to deal with regularly who is caring for a junkie mum, her 4 younger brothers and sisters who are totally wild and running riot and the girl is expecting a baby herself, social services see she is managing and don't want to know, a pregnant 13 year old caring for 4 other kids and an adult??? It's so wrong on so many levels. If she was being abused sexually, she'd be taken into care and released into the world at 16 years of age - imo she is being abused mentally
I know of another girl who is 14 years old caring for her younger family and mum who hasd had a breakdown, what the hell does a 14 year old know about breakdowns and child rearing? the poor kid is beside herself because she doesn't know what to do - no help there either......

But childline are always on the end of the phone 24/7, these girls can pick up the phone for advice, just to talk and childline will often be able to put them in touch with agencies who will give them numbers of agencies who can give them some respite, agencies no-one knows about until someone happens to mention them.

So they wouldn't be fleeing any authorities, just turning to a charitable lending hand, in fact after reading your posts here, I have a mind to get in contact with Childline and see if they can't come to this forum and make an effort to get themnselves over to America so kids DO have someone to turn to.

TSW - I can speak for myself, there was a point to my post - the point being that as much as I find it scary what kids go through in programs, I find it scary they'd find themselves with no money, no ID, no resources on the streets/in the woods and so on, that's what this thread is about right?
It makes me sick that these kids' own families would turn them away to have them put back inot an abusive situation, if any of my cousins/friends kids came to me with a problem, I'd help them out without hesitation



The point is childline is a lovely kettle of fish for us Gin swilling dead beats here in merry olde England. Won't do a jot or bloody fuckin' tittle of good for you sodding yanks, but I will prattle along about it anyway. Don't mine me for clouding up yet another thread with my well intentioned scat.

Seriously luv. Fuck off. Best damn thread to hit the forums in awhile and you are spamming it with your socialist horse shit. If you have something useful to add to the Escaper's guide then do so postehaste. If not, pull that bloody great cork out of your arse and stuff it firmly between those two cock holders that rest right under your nose.
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Offline exhausted

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« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2007, 07:39:13 AM »
And you are who exactly?

When someone tells me I am banned from the site or tells me that you have the authority to tell me to leave a thread - then so be it, if you don't like my point of view that's your problem, you'll find in life others do have different opinions other than yours, get over yourself narcassist

until then - seriously luv - YOU fuck off
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2007, 07:42:43 AM »
I have a feeling exhausted still doesnt 100% "get" programs, or for that matter, "get" the USA.

Meh.
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline exhausted

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« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2007, 07:52:03 AM »
No I don't, and the more I learn about programs, the more I don't want to know, I never have got the way USA does things, I doubt I ever will, lots of niceties on the outside, but rotten to the core by the sounds of it
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2007, 09:19:41 AM »
Water: In the wilderness, if you're out of water---and not in a desert or similar---find the lowest point and dig a hole. It should start filling with water at the bottom of it in a half hour or so. It will be muddy and yucky, but it will keep you alive.

I disagree with the earlier advice about bleaching or dyeing clothes. I can't think of a better way to get caught before you run---except confiding in some other kid who you know would never rat you out.

Wear grays, browns, or blacks. Wear the drabbest clothes you can find--nothing brightly colored. It's awfully hard to describe dark or drab clothing in a way that makes you findable.

Look, I can describe this imaginary runner: White male, 16, 5'10", short brown hair, brown eyes, medium build, last seen wearing gray sweat pants, a gray sweat shirt, and sneakers with no shoelaces.

Of that description, only the last bit is useful to anyone looking for you.

So don't be seen in the daytime anywhere by anybody until you've been able to steal or otherwise aquire some shoes. Does counselor Joe-bob fatass have feet your size? To hell with stealing his car keys, steal his *shoes*---on a day when he's wearing drab or common, old shoes. Old shoes get dingy. You don't really notice them when you look at someone---you're eyes just kind of slide over them without focusing. Same with drab clothes.

Don't bother trying to change the appearance of the clothes and shoes, drab is enough. Nothing stands out in the woods like brightly colored clothing.  Okay, if you're wearing white, get dirty unless you're in snow. Don't run in snow unless you're experienced at camping in inclement weather.

In cold weather, after your golden hour and all that---after you've taken care of the immediate problem of getting away and you're three or four days into your escape, working on staying gone---travelling at night is good because it keeps you out of sight, and keeps you moving (and thus generating heat) in the coldest hours of each day. DO NOT push yourself so hard that you sweat. The sweat wil either try to freeze on your body, or get your clothes wet and they'll try to freeze on you. Either way, it's a good way to lose body heat, go into hypothermia, and die.

The Discovery Channel has a great show--Survivorman, I think it's called. If you're worried about this ever happening to you, you might want to make a habit of watching it.

Similarly, don't try a desert escape, or a dry-country escape in a drought, if you don't know what you're doing outdoors. If you're going to escape in dry (but never desert) country, do it with plenty of water and in the rainy season, or with plenty of water and after a good rain.

Looking like a vagrant gets you questioned and noticed in rural areas--if you're seen, small towns, very small cities, or "nice" parts of town in more urban places. Looking like a vagrant in the rundown parts of cities makes you invisible. If you can't help looking like a vagrant, then make darned sure you just aren't seen until you get to a moderate-sized city.

ID to travel and day labor jobs: Illegal aliens can get fake ID, so can you. Do the jobs the illegals take, be nice, respectful, and polite to them---get in good with them.  To get in good with them, work very hard at the job---most latino illegals have little respect for lazy gringos. Once you're in good with those folks, get their help getting fake ID. The rapist stepfather is always a good line for what you're getting away from---works for both sexes. Do not use it unless you have to, and if you do, just say, "Yeah. My stepfather...liked me too much. I don't wanna talk about it. Let's just say he liked me too much and leave it at that." If you're a hard worker and never try to scam anybody for money, ever, and you aren't trying to get alcohol or drugs and use them, and you aren't trying to charm your way into people's pants, people will not suspect you of trying to run another scam on you---they'll sense you're running from something, but if you're a hard worker without unsavory habits, they're going to presume that whatever you're running from is the other guy's fault.

Fake ID won't get you a good job, but it will let you travel on a bus after a few months to get farther away. Don't go back anywhere near your home town. Fake ID will help you out, if you lay low and don't use it except for that one crucial bus trip, until you get legal adulthood. Then you can see about getting your real ID.  You may not have to take that bus trip, and should avoid it if you can---if you get in good with the illegals, then if some of them are going from the city you're in to another one, they may let you ride along if you chip in on gas.

Again, street smarts and being too smart to burn the people around you are at a premium.

The biggest thing of all is being smart enough to keep your mouth shut, before and after you run.

You can get away with all kinds of stuff if you know how to absolutely keep your mouth shut. If you run off at the mouth, if you confide in people, you'll get caught at everything.

In a healthy, functional, sane life, confiding in people is good. When you're doing something you ain't s'posed to, confiding in people is *s*t*u*p*i*d*. Big, flashing neon letters kind of stupid.

Maybe you are the one fantastic, shining individual who would never rat anyone out.  If so, you're just about the only one. Do not make the mistake of thinking anybody around you is like you and won't rat you out the same way you wouldn't rat them out. I know this---I'm too stupidly stubborn and idealistic to rat people out. And I've learned from hard experience that the odds are that good old friend/relative/lover so-and-so WILL RAT.

Maybe you aren't that individual. If you'd rat, don't think whoever you'd confide in wouldn't.

Either way---dear friend/family/lover you can confide in = RAT.

Everybody you trusted who rats you out always does it with the best of intentions, for your own good, because they love you and want to help you. When they finally admit, twenty years later, that their "help" effed you over but good, their refrain is always the same, "How was I supposed to know? I only wanted to help. I love you so much. I really thought I was doing the right thing. How was I supposed to know? Believe me, if I could do it over again, I would."

The authorities and whoever else you're running from try to scare anyone they think you'd run to. They're very effective at scaring them, because most of the time the folks you're running from really could seriously hurt--through legal means--the folks they think you might confide in or run to. At the same time, the folks you're running from are very effective at convincing the folks you might confide in that it's all for your own good.

Virtually everybody you might run to, including 90% of the people you think would never narc you out, will believe the "it's for your own good" line because they want to believe it---because believing it and going along gets the pressure and threats off them.

And, after all, if it turns out to be disastrous for you, then they can always say, "How was I supposed to know? I love you and just wanted to help you and do what was best."

Everybody in this world, including you, has boundless capacity for self-deception.

In a normal, healthy, sane life, you confiding in those folks and them confiding in you is not only good, it's essential.

When you're on the run from something, confiding in people is stupid. Confiding in people who like you or love you is even dumber, because they will always be easy prey for the argument that they're doing what's best for you.

Even if they think the Program is Evil Incarnate, the authorities will argue--quite convincingly--to anyone who cares about you even a little bit that you're in horrible deadly danger on the street and that the Evil Incarnate Program is at least a little less bad for you than the street.

After all, would people be paying all that money to get you the special help that you so desperately need--considering how much they love you (and your folks will be able to convince your confidant that they love you, because they almost certainly do)--if it was a more dangerous place than the street for God's sake?! Of course they wouldn't!

Except that the kids that have died in the Programs obviously wouldn't have been in more danger on the street, now would they?

Whether I think the street is more dangerous or not is one thing. If you want to make the choice that you think it's less dangerous, you better understand that anybody who cares about you can be easily persuaded that the street is the absolute worst, most dangerous thing for you and that they're horribly, criminally betraying you if they don't narc you out.

I'm 40. In my life I've seen more people caught for more stuff----huge numbers of folks caught doing huge numbers of things---that they'd never have been caught for if they'd had the brains to just keep their mouths shut.

This applies to bad people doing bad things that they genuinely shouldn't have done---sometimes very horrible, evil things.

This also applies to good people trying to evade the harm of somebody doing something to them "for their own good" as well. In spades.

Julie
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Offline Froderik

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« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2007, 10:43:07 AM »
Quote from: ""Cassandra""
World of difference there. Hands down, no question, while I wasn't "safe" in the euphemistic way you're after for your kid, I was safer out than in.

Goddamn, I'm glad someone finally made this point..  :exclaim:
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