ST Cluelessness

[exhausted]

Yes they do, unfortunately they are on the route to prison, I can't stop them, they know where they're heading, it's up to them now to change that path

[Anonymous]

Well at least it didn't make them angry for a change, they just said okay, and came told me they love me

This is the reaction I was expecting.

I can't stop them, they know where they're heading, it's up to them now to change that path

And by their reaction, it sounds like they're going to.

*golf clap* Round of applause, folks. Round of applause.

[exhausted]

I guess we have to reach some sort of rock bottom before anything changes drastically, maybe they've reached it, who knows, I could be tearing my hair out tomorrow, but today it's okay (apart from the damn railway fine I got for one of them!)

Let's hope we're on the up as a family eh?

And they got to watch TV in bed tonight cos they stayed in on their grounding today and they have been pleasant company this evening

[White Cracker Man]

Glad to hear it, Exhausted.

[AtomicAnt]

I guess we have to reach some sort of rock bottom before anything changes drastically, maybe they've reached it, who knows, I could be tearing my hair out tomorrow, but today it's okay (apart from the damn railway fine I got for one of them!)

Let's hope we're on the up as a family eh?

And they got to watch TV in bed tonight cos they stayed in on their grounding today and they have been pleasant company this evening

Okay, one of them owes the family for the price of the fine. An allowance is a kid's fair share of the family resources. A fine is not. I suggest money is not an acceptable form of 'payment' for the fine. How about housekeeping (dishes, vaccuuming) or how about he makes dinner for the family? Fair is fair.

Grounding lacks imagination. Appeal to his sense of what is fair and be creative as to how to balance the scales. Maybe he can can come up with his own idea. Hold a family meeting and decide what is fair as a team.

What I am getting at is that they are too old and out of control for you to be the sole boss and so it is time they were involved in both making and enforcing the family rules.

[exhausted]

Yes I've been trying to rack my brains on how to make him pay a fine off, as he is cut off from all finances right now, simply because he spends the money on cigarettes and steals form me - I'm not financing his smoking and train fares to go wherever it is he goes to, I have however refused him money at the shop for sweets and also not given him money for his youth club this week, not sure that's enough, I'll take up your suggestion and let him decide his punishment

although he categorically denies it and says someone must have given his name (Yer right....do I look stupid?)

[AtomicAnt]

One of things I learned the hard way as a parent is not to threaten the removal of some priviledge or activity that I myself wanted.

His money for the youth club, if this club is something that is positive for him, might not be the thing to cease. Promote the positive.

Based on your description of your sons, I don't have any easy answers. They seem quite independent and willful.

[AtomicAnt]

More like a huge sense of entitlement. Sort of like they are entitled to act they way they act.

Maybe so, but we're too far away and only have one person's written perspective on the situation. From what exhausted has written, I conclude:

These boys have adopted a lifestyle that rides along the fringes of the law. They seem poised to fall either way as they grow, but might just stay in lifestyle they are currently in. There is an absence of positive male role modeling. The 19-year-old is probably the closest adult male the 13-year-old has. This is not a good thing. Older brothers can be a huge influence; especially with no father in the picture.

Am I correct that no father is actively in the picture?

From where I sit, the boys aren't that bad. They just have not had the appropriate concepts of personal integrity modeled for them by close adult males. They don't know what it looks like to be a responsible, caring, adult male. So, they are not growing up.

I don't have clue what to do about it, except to try to instill a sense of personal pride and integrity in them. I think the only way to teach them responsibility is to give them responsibility. That is surely easier said than done.

[exhausted]

Yep you're right in that the male role model is the older brother, and it's not a good one, in fact it's a terrible one, my 1st move has to be that he has to leave the house, I can't say that the younger two are out of control because of his behabviour, they do have their own minds, but I certainly don't think it helps seeing him get away wiht keeping me awake until early hours of the morning swearing & creating, smashing the house up and getting away with it, to their minds, they are only 13 & 14 after all, if he can get away wioth that behaviour, why shouldn't they be able to? I do understand where they come from with that.....it's not just me letting him get away with it either, I call the police, they take him away and then bring him back with a telling off....I'm not protected at all by the authorities

I also discovered recently he has been violent towards them, they haven't told me because they had been intimidated by him into keeping quiet, he smashed the house up with a tennis racket, then hit them with it, hit them with a golf club because he had to get up early to go to court and decided they should be up too - and he also does it when he wants them to make him something to eat late at night, if they refuse he bites them, hits them and beats up on them in general, my problem is that he's getting nastier and nastier towards me - I cal the police and they release him, it's me who gets the backlash once he's free to do so, I can sort of deal with that, although mentally I'm not dealing with it at all well, it's the boys I worry about getting the consequences of his anger

I did have a surprise tonight thogh, my boys came in and it was like someone gave me back the kids I once had, removing their bad attitude and delivering them as they once were, they told me they wouldn't be late but had to go finish helping a neighbour whose wall had been knocked down (they'd been picking the bricks up and stacking them) they also told me a friend of theres, who I really didn't want them hanging out with as he is real trouble, smokes weed and drinks heavily, is always in trouble, had been arrested, and it was the best thing that ever happened to them as they don't want to be around him because he will drag them down woth htem.....I actually got a mature conversation out of my kids    and I didn't initiate the converstaion at all

As they went back out they said "love you mum, promise not to be back too late" - I'm not fooled, but I encouraged their way of thinking and have left it that I believe them and to stay safe, the normal parent stuff you say, i would never say "I've heard it all before I dont believe you" and I certainly don't expect them not to do something that will get them into trouble, but for now, I want to enjoy the moment while they're in this frame of mind

Just to clarify about the youth club, yes I can understand why you would say to encourage that, but if I give them money, I cnat trust them to actually go - I'm wondering if next week I should take them and pay their money in and then go pick them up - it's humiliating for them I agree, but at least I'd know where the money is going and they're really turning up there and spending my money on what i give it to them for, if they're that desperate to go, they'll understand it's what i have to do for a while until they earn my trust back

So - that's the story so far! Now help me to get the eldest out of here!!!!

[Anonymous]

Woah, hold the fuck up... your eldest has been hitting his own little brothers with a fucking golf club?

Jesus no wonder they were so aggressive.

Hasn't it been more than 30 days since you gave him notice to leave? Why,.exactly, is he not gone now? If you were on this side of the pond, you could basically walk into any courtroom in the country and walk out with a temporary restraining order.

if I give them money, I cnat trust them to actually go - I'm wondering if next week I should take them and pay their money in and then go pick them up - it's humiliating for them I agree, but at least I'd know where the money is going

Really easy solution: If the business of fees works the same way it usually does here, write a cheque made out to the youth club and give it to your kids.

had been arrested, and it was the best thing that ever happened to them as they don't want to be around him because he will drag them down woth htem.....I actually got a mature conversation out of my kids and I didn't initiate the converstaion at all

You remember when you told them that they were responsible for their own futures? This is a direct ramification of that.

You're completely on the right track with regards to where they're going and what they're doing but I want to warn you about this phrase:

it was like someone gave me back the kids I once had

This is an extremely dangerous line of thinking. Don't ever say this to them or anyone else in person. You can express it this way on Fornits if you like, but thinking "get back the kids I used to have" or any variant leads directly to perdition, with a brief stop in pandemonium. The only way out of adolescence is through it. If they think for an instant that you're trying to go backwards and belittle them (actually the correct word is many times worse than 'belittle'), they might react in horrible, unexpected ways.

[psy]

I also discovered recently he has been violent towards them, they haven't told me because they had been intimidated by him into keeping quiet, he smashed the house up with a tennis racket, then hit them with it, hit them with a golf club because he had to get up early to go to court and decided they should be up too - and he also does it when he wants them to make him something to eat late at night, if they refuse he bites them, hits them and beats up on them in general, my problem is that he's getting nastier and nastier towards me - I cal the police and they release him, it's me who gets the backlash once he's free to do so, I can sort of deal with that, although mentally I'm not dealing with it at all well, it's the boys I worry about getting the consequences of his anger

Throw the fucker out.  The next time he gets rowdy call the police.  While he's gone, have a steel door with a deadlock installed if you live in an apartment.  Call the police if he comes back.  Buy a tazer / mace / pepper-spray for personal self defense and don't be afraid to use it.  It won't kill him and if he's beating up his own brothers he deserves no sympathy at all.  Be rid of him and save your other two kids.

had to go finish helping a neighbour whose wall had been knocked down (they'd been picking the bricks up and stacking them) they also told me a friend of theres, who I really didn't want them hanging out with as he is real trouble, smokes weed and drinks heavily, is always in trouble, had been arrested, and it was the best thing that ever happened to them as they don't want to be around him because he will drag them down woth htem.....I actually got a mature conversation out of my kids    and I didn't initiate the converstaion at all

Finally some good news.  Maybe they are starting to see the reality of things around them.  There's no better teacher than experience and example.

But first things first.  You need to get rid of the 19 year old.  As i've said before: "unless a kid is an immediate danger to himself or others he should not be institutionalized".  At this point an institution would have to be his choice anyway, and you have to take into consideration the abuse he is dealing out towards you and the rest of your family. He has to go.  What have you tried so far to be rid of him?

[exhausted]

No I am not beliitling them, what I meant is, its like someone put the old personalities of 'nice kids' back into them and took the devil inside them away....

but tongiht, again, it's kicked off, everyone is shouting and screaming and swearing and carrying on, all I've asked is they all (all 4 of them) let me have ONE evening where there is no shouting or kicking off, I have sent them all to bed so they are seperated and can't be shouting at each other, but no - they just keep running up & down the stairs - continuing with the shouting and swearing at each other, the 14 yr old has stolen a packet of cigarette papers off the eldest who has threatened to smash his head in for it and no doubt will, I think it's time I leave the house before I become useless to anyone, there's no coping with this carrying on until 1,2, 3 am every single night, there is no let up

As for trying to remove the 19 yr old, as I said, i have called the police everytime, but they keep letting him go - and he comes back here in a more angry mood than he ever was, and it's us who suffer the consequences - the police always let us down, they just make the situation worse

btw, we cannot have posession of mace, tazers, pepper sprays here, it is illegal for anyone but the police to use any of these weapons, i would be arrested for using them

[psy]

btw, we cannot have posession of mace, tazers, pepper sprays here, it is illegal for anyone but the police to use any of these weapons, i would be arrested for using them

Pfft.  This is insane. So what exactly are you supposed to do in self defense? Use harsh language?!?!  To be frank.  If I lived in the uk i'd break the law.

Can't you tell the police to remove him, that he's abusive.  There has got to be some domistic violence authority in the UK.

Here's the BBC's advice on getting rid of the fucker.

specifically this page  substitute the word "fuckhead son" for "partner".
and here's how you keep him out

My feeling here is that you hesitate.  Dont.

[exhausted]

yer I know what they say, what they do is totally the oppposite, remember they said if he breaks his tag curfew ONCE he goes straight back to jail? He broke it several times and the last time he went to court, they rewarded him by giving him 2 more hours to play with....o...k

Victim support, hmmm....let me tell you something about them, my best friend was nearly beaten to death several times by her partbner for 9 years, the police promised her they'd take care of her if she helped them put him away, she lived in sheer fear for a year, we al took turns in staying at her house to keep watch, he came through the door on many occassions, bearing in mind this guy had been imprisoned 2wice for the same thing on two previous partners, anyway she did this year in absolute terror, the day before the court case was due, they suddeny dropped the case, no explanation, no back up protection, nothing.

When I have called the police on my son, they have promised me victim support, do you think anyone has ever bothered to contact me? No...there's your promise of stopping domestic violence in this country, and that is why victims of abuse do not report it.

[psy]

yer I know what they say, what they do is totally the oppposite, remember they said if he breaks his tag curfew ONCE he goes straight back to jail? He broke it several times and the last time he went to court, they rewarded him by giving him 2 more hours to play with....o...k

Victim support, hmmm....let me tell you something about them, my best friend was nearly beaten to death several times by her partbner for 9 years, the police promised her they'd take care of her if she helped them put him away, she lived in sheer fear for a year, we al took turns in staying at her house to keep watch, he came through the door on many occassions, bearing in mind this guy had been imprisoned 2wice for the same thing on two previous partners, anyway she did this year in absolute terror, the day before the court case was due, they suddeny dropped the case, no explanation, no back up protection, nothing.

When I have called the police on my son, they have promised me victim support, do you think anyone has ever bothered to contact me? No...there's your promise of stopping domestic violence in this country, and that is why victims of abuse do not report it.

NOOO.  my country sucks more dammit.  stop bursting my bubble.  Jeez.  No wonder they don't allow firearms in your country.  Domestic violence would plummit while the gunshot deaths rate would skyrocket.  What you're describing is a good argument for why many people argue that regulation for TBS/RTS/RTC/EGBS/BM/ABC schools would never work.  Governments have a notorious record of saying a lot, and doing absolutely jack shit.  And when they do actually get around to doing something it ends up being massively botched, usually due to incompetence, corruption, or a combination or the two.

Regardless of your experiences though with your friend, have you tried the  approaches mentioned on the webpage?  If all else fails, do you have a strong man / group of men you can call (independent contractors) to chuck him out or otherwise handle the situation.  Surely there must be at least one sympathetic ear amongst the local police.  Have you tried local churchfolk?  Go to a gym, make friends with some muscle bound freak with a big "mom" tattoo on his arm.  You know the type.  The ones that will approach your son and say "are you disrespecting your mother son? WELL ARE YOU!".  I'm not suggesting anything illegal, i'm just saying when you throw him out it might be helpful to have some muscle around so he doesn't get any ideas and might think twice about coming back to mess things up.