63 days

[Anonymous]

What about the US? what do people think? if the US did not have such  strong Zero Tolerance laws and had more strictly enforced regulations for youth related schools and facilities would there be any market at all for the TBS industry?

As long as there are desperate parents who feel they have tried everything locally available with no success, there will always be a market for this foul industry. A certain percentage of those Struggling Parents will be gullible enough to hand over their life's savings to an unqualified stranger who promises to "help" but offers no evidence of his program's effectiveness.

The obnoxious Zero Tolerance laws here do contribute to the problem.  Some parents find themselves doing things they never dreamed of doing, to help keep their kids out of the court system for what really should be minor drug offenses. Unlike the UK or Oz, minors in the US can be incarcerated. Multiple drug possession offenses will land a kid in juvenile detention -- which every bit as much a prison as adult prison -- where some of the other young offenders are in for things much more serious and disturbing than just doing drugs.

Parents' desire to keep their kids out of the juvenile court system makes them more inclined to look into other options, including questionable 'teen help' programs that sound too good to be true and usually are.

[White Cracker Man]

Yep, That is who I was talking about. Thanks Deborah.

[exhausted]

This idea of whether this industry is an american cultural phenomenon or whether this happens because it is a nieche market in a big population is something i have been pondering a lot Exhausted. i just dont know.

 i do know that two of the big barriers to it here is the strongly enforced regulations of any industry dealing with minors and the expense. in a population with only 20 million odd people there are also only so many who can afford 30 grand a year which is around twice the cost of an elite private day school and still more expensive than regular boarding school. It is also reasonably difficult, tho not impossible for an underage kid to go to jail  for delinquent behaviour and near impossible to go to jail for taking drugs, tho not for other related crimes like dealing. Is it similar in the UK?

What about the US? what do people think? if the US did not have such  strong Zero Tolerance laws and had more strictly enforced regulations for youth related schools and facilities would there be any market at all for the TBS industry?

The niche isn't so much of a niche anymore, as the yob culture gets stronger & stronger in the Uk, the stronger the likelihood that these programs will flood this country too - I hear word that there is one program on it's way over here/already here, of course only the very well off will be able to afford it and I have to be honest when I say that those who don't have a teen who is either mentally disabled or not totally off the rails, will be all for it, because it takes the rouble off the streets, and you can't balme them! The kids here are running the place because they are allowed to.....the government and do gooders who insist they have all of these rights bought out the children's rights charter, these kids know every right and they use them, with the 'rights' comes the childs right to swear & hit and throw abuse at any police officer, teacher, parent, old man walking down the street, but if any of these people try to defend themselves and hit back, they are considered to be out of control adults and are prompltly arrested, gone is the cane at school, gone is the day the policeman would clip you round the ear and drag you home to your father waiting for you who would then give you one upside the head, they just aren't afraid to do what they like anymore, because it is their right! We would be terrified of being caught doing anything wrong by the police, things like apple scrumping and running through derelict buildings

And now to confuse you - after everything I've just said above, certain things have gone PC mad in this country, to me, apple scrumping and running across a garage roof is a childhood thing to do, that is what normal kids do right? Not now, - I have no idea if it's over compensation for how unruly the youth have become or not, but lets take these 2 examples, a kid runs across a roof, he is arrested for criminal damage, he apple scrumps and he is arrested for theft and trespass - these are serious offenses here
He goes out and punches some old man's lights out and he is arrested for assault, but will more often than not get a caution for it, he is free to go, and he will continue to do the same thing over & over and still get further cautions until eventually everyone gives up and he is thrown in jail, not so serious as apple scrumping.

The moral of my message here, is get to the root cause! Don't give them the right to do exactly as they please and then throw them in jail when they do it!!

And for parents, don't tell them they can't smack, discipline or even look at their kids in the wrong way or they will be prosecuted and then point the finger of blame and accuse them of being bad parents because their kids have gone wrong, it is this monster we are breeding that will bring programs here and all the parents will see it as a fix for the damage the government has caused over the last two generations.
Why is prevention not better than cure nowadays?

[Deborah]

with the 'rights' comes the childs right to swear & hit and throw abuse at any police officer, teacher, parent, old man walking down the street

That sounds a bit exaggerated. Are you saying they literally have the Right to physically assault an adult/another person? Can't imagine that in any 'civilized' country.

but if any of these people try to defend themselves and hit back, they are considered to be out of control adults and are prompltly arrested, gone is the cane at school, gone is the day the policeman would clip you round the ear and drag you home to your father waiting for you who would then give you one upside the head, they just aren't afraid to do what they like anymore, because it is their right!

Seems that one would have the Right to defend themselves if the minor was old enough and large enough to inflict serious damage. Or say, had a gun or knife, etc. Whereas, if a teacher is slapping a kid who said a curse word, that's an entirely different matter. What, is she 'defending' an
insult to her sensibilities?

Children's Rights don't just happened by accident. They are designed to protect minors from sadistic and/or ignorant adults they come into contact with. "Caning" and "slapping" may illicit fear or humiliation, which may result in the kid being more 'obidient', but is that the most humane treatment? It will work for more timid kids susceptible to punishment, but for others it will just further anger and alienate them.

Governement/Laws can't cover for every possible scenario, so we end up with blanket social policies that usually aren't rational or reasonable. Government can't parent, they can only issue rules and consequences. And, you just can't control everything with laws anyway. Never has been effective. http://ishmael.com/Education/Writings/rice_u_2_98.shtml

I think the most useful thing a parent can do is provide their kid with factually accurate information about the culture they live in.
I remember when my kids were in public school as teens, the handbook they sent home outlined offenses and sanctions- from detention, to expulsion, to misdemeanor, to felony. I asked my boys if they knew what a misdemeanor or felony was. Nope. Hadn't been covered in the school assembly. If these different levels of threats of punishment were intended to curtail behaviors, they 'might' be more 'effective' if kids had some idea as to what they mean and entail.
We live in a police state with a growing prison population. Kids, from about 12 on should know the intimate details of that reality. And it's up to parents to properly educate them. That education may include taking them out of school for a week or two and sitting in juvenile court everyday, visiting detention centers, talking to the inmates. Fear inducing? Possibly. But better they know the possibilities. Beats hell out of caning and slapping and warehousing them.

[Anonymous]

Okay.. time for a hockey-style reality check.

Do you know what J. Random Headmaster did after applying the cane to unruly, undisciplined boys? He'd go home and have a good, long, cum-spewing wank! He'd grab his dick, maybe shove a thumb up his ass, and imagine all those helpless, crying adolescents he'd spanked all day and blow his load! And then he'd get up the next morning and do it all over again.

When I use the word "sadist" on Fornits, I am speaking literally. The same twisted thinking that the programmies use is also applicable here. There's a body of people who honestly believe that this sort of thing really does work, and then there's a denser, harder core of sadists at the center.

Back in reality, applying a cane to an angry, vicious kid isn't going to make him any less angry or vicious. It's just going to add to it until he does something irrevocable and goes to jail- or, worse, twists his psyche so badly that he gets a job "disciplining" kids and beating his meat afterwards.

It's taken so long to purge this kind of shit from most of society (teen gulags being a notable exception), and there's the ever-present threat of people stupid or sadistic enough to want to bring it back.

And the job of the police isn't to cater to people's desires of what they think society should be like. Their job is to enforce the law, so don't be surprised when they do it. So yes, if your kids go around trespassing on people's property (especially running on top of people's roofs, they can easily destroy shingles doing that, the things break right off, so it really IS criminal damage), they're going to get arrested for it. And you can hardly say that they have the "right" to do it if the cops are going to arrest them.

Here's the reality:

Crime by young people hasn?t risen in the past five years and the number of known young offenders fell by 14% between 1995 and 2001 (Source: Criminal Statistics 2001).
 
However, three-quarters of respondents in a recent survey believed the number of young offenders had risen (Source: Youth Crime and Youth Justice: Public opinion in England and Wales 2004).

[exhausted]

Okay, let me put this in a more simplistic way

1stly to Deborah, the answer is pretty much no, you can't defend yourself, if a 10 yr old comes at you & punches you, it is going to hurt, just cos they're 10 doesn't mean they can't hurt you, if you lash out at them, or restrain them, you as the adult will be arrested for assaulting a minor, i'd still do it anyway but that's beside the point, the same goes for smacking your own child, you are not allowed to....again if I think my kid needs a smack bottom they get one

I'll use this case to simplify how things work here......a lad has been taken to court for so many crimes I won't list them, he is cautioned over & over, he then gets an asbo, he breaks it, he has more conditions put on the asbo, he breaks them and more conditions are put on, and so it goes on, the lad is being sent a message that these conditions don't mean shit, because he is getting sent away with just a few more each time, so he carries on unpunished, he then goes to jail because he thinks the conditions don't mean anything and continues to misbehave, so he comes out of prison with conditions, these are called being on licence, he has to wear a tag and is set a curfew for 8pm to 8am, he breaks that curfew, he is told off, he breaks it again, he is told off again, he continures to break it until on the 5th time he is arrested and taken to court, now bear in mind the same lad has been told if he breaks it ONCE, that is his lot, by the 3rd or 4th time he realises that's just bullshit, he breaks it for a 6th time, why? Because there is no consequence! He has been sent the message that it is okay because he will only get told off, this has already be proved to him in his mind, they aren't going to do anything about it, they haven't done anything about it, why bother putting the tag in place in the first instance?

So is it fair to him when they arrest him and he is sent back to jail? Who is at fault here? Him for breaking his tag conditions or the powers that be for letting him think it is okay to break them 5 times over?

[exhausted]

Here's the reality:

Crime by young people hasn?t risen in the past five years and the number of known young offenders fell by 14% between 1995 and 2001 (Source: Criminal Statistics 2001).
 
However, three-quarters of respondents in a recent survey believed the number of young offenders had risen (Source: Youth Crime and Youth Justice: Public opinion in England and Wales 2004).

Don't be blinded by statistics, believe me - of course youth crime has gone down statistically, as my above post points out, they will let the kids get away with everything and anything in order to keep the rate of crime thats reported down, makes the UK look good doesn't it? Crimes are dealt wiht by issuing caution after caution, cautions do not count in the conviction rate

[psy]

but if any of these people try to defend themselves and hit back, they are considered to be out of control adults and are prompltly arrested

Well that isn't the case here.  If anybody assaults you you have the right to self defense.  If somebody breaks into your home, minor or adult, you have the right to fill them with as many holes as you please.  It varies from state to state, Deb can tell you about texas.

The point is that i don't see the kids over here any better behaved then they are in the OK.  I think it's a lot worse here personally.  Kids are thrown in jail here.  Kids have serious consequences here for minor offenses.  Kids can be prosecuted as adults and executed.  Parents can spank their kids here.  Is it any better?  No.  It's worse!  How many school shootings they have in the UK per year?  Murder rate?  Violent crime?  So i don't see how smacking a kid helps anything.

[Anonymous]

Here's the reality:

Crime by young people hasn?t risen in the past five years and the number of known young offenders fell by 14% between 1995 and 2001 (Source: Criminal Statistics 2001).
 
However, three-quarters of respondents in a recent survey believed the number of young offenders had risen (Source: Youth Crime and Youth Justice: Public opinion in England and Wales 2004).

Don't be blinded by statistics, believe me - of course youth crime has gone down statistically, as my above post points out, they will let the kids get away with everything and anything in order to keep the rate of crime thats reported down, makes the UK look good doesn't it? Crimes are dealt wiht by issuing caution after caution, cautions do not count in the conviction rate

But you have no proof behind what you say, though it is a good point to consider  :wink:

And people THINK its on the rise largely because of media ploys by people who have something to gain by making people it's on the rise! If you're selling political rhetoric, public policy, 'treatment', prisons, or are a contractor to police/military, you want to drum that up! Moral panics rarely reflect reality!

I'm not about to sit here and say to spoil kids and let them act like little shits, but thats preferrable (to me) than over reacting and throwing them in programs, jail, the military, or what have you to 'fix' someone. Programs are intrinsically bad, the military is a carrer choice, not a 'fix it' despite the promotional material, and jails are places people are put to rot.

I seriously doubt its a lack of punishment and "consequences" or punishment or whatnot so much as a mix of some kids having rough times as teenagers, or just being bad apples, or a screwed up family life for one reason or another.

Hectic "modern" contemporary lives are more about conspicuous consumption, social cliques and fitting in, and other such bullshit than really having a good bond and a slowed down pace and good time with your family. I dont mean "quality time" said aloud, met with groans by people who can't stand eachother... I dont mean forcing it, I mean actual genuine bonding thats consentual and enjoyable, not forcing people who dont like eachother to fake it.

I hope people slow the hell down in the coming decades while moving more permissive and "liberal" in the sense of social liberties... the fast pased, conservative swing I've seen has made for some rather messed up people, though all the kinks that seem to develop as a result break up the grind of work and lack of fun pretty damn well  :rofl:

[White Cracker Man]

Niles made a great point. Only thing I disagree with is that he said not so much lack of consequences. I think it is a little more lack of consequences. One one hand, you can have a kid going through a social issue or something and on the other  hand, you have no consequences until jail to make you think about choosing an alternative route to deal with whatever issue it is.

[exhausted]

Well we don't really have school shootings due to the fact that guns are illegal in this country, you have to go through quite a process to be able to own one, like being a farmer or something similar, so it is not common practise for a person to carry a firearm, knives are a different matter, the youth culture of today demands that any teen carry a knife, it's do or die, you or them, we as a country are trying to make these kids understand that their weapons could easily be used against them and if they are carrying a knife, they are more likely to be seen as a threat and get set upon....we also have this gang mentality thing going on where to initiate you have to stab the black kid or whoever happens to walk by, I have no idea why this has come about, but being part of a gang is your survival, kids are no longer individuals and only the hardest of the hard survive it

Michael, unfotunately the prisons here are so cushy that it's no problem being in one, they have rights to this and rights to that, it is common knowledge in this country that the criminal ALWAYS has more rights than the victim - rape victims are not told their rapist is freed from jail because he has the right to keep that quiet, pedophiles remain anonymous because they have that right, see The Jamie Bulger Case, read and weep how that 2 year old lost his life, the family still suffer to this day and what the killers got from committing a sensless murder, it's an absolute outrage!

In prison there is satellite TV, state of the art computers, top of the range education, state of the art gym equipment, hospital facilities you could never afford - then you have the basics like free heating, lighting, rent, food, library facilities......sound good to you?
There is also another thing to consider, there is no death penalty here, so commit a murder and youll be free in a few years, no problem

[White Cracker Man]

Sounds like a resort. Would be a major upgrade from my current way of life to say the least, that is for sure.

[White Cracker Man]

Although America is the same way, with the exception of supermax prisons, where the inmates spends 23 hours a day in their cells.

[psy]

Although America is the same way, with the exception of supermax prisons, where the inmate spends 23 hours a day in his cell.

I dunno.  There were a few ex-prison inmates (federal pen) in my school and they didn't speak very highly of it.  I think it really depends on the state.

[White Cracker Man]

I think we are talking about the amenities available to inmates, not so much  liking it. The vast majority don't like it but they make the best of the amenities available to them. Some do like it, especially if it's  a light sentence, it could seem like  a mini vacation, as many do not have access to such amenities at their homes.