The Fallen

[Valhalla]

HOW CAN THERE BE A CEASE FIRE FOR SOMETHING THAT WAS JUST PEOPLE TALKING ON THE INTERNET. IF PEOPLE CAN'T TAKE SOMEONE'S OPINION ON A THING, MAYBE THEY THEMSELVES SHOULD EXIT THE DISCUSSION INSTEAD OF ACTING LIKE SOMEONE WITH AN OPINION MUST BE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING BAD JUST BY SAYING IT. IF THAT PERSON ACTUALLY STARTED MAKING A LIST OF PEOPLE WHO DIED WHO HAD BEEN IN STRAIGHT, WHY IS IT SO BAD FOR THEM TO SAY THAT, IF THAT IS WHAT THEY DID AND THEN  BECAUSE OF THAT THEY REALIZED SOMETHING, WHY WAS IT EVER A PROBLEM FOR THEM TO COME HERE AND SAY IT?

Not everyone agrees on everything all the time.  That would be impossible, boring, and take away our individuality.  But, at least we are able to say what we think, hope it will be respected and look to find some kind of mutual ground to stand on.  And if there is no mutual ground, then leave it there with a mutual respect of differences.

Everyone should at least be able to speak their mind...

[Anonymous]

I ALSO SAY, IF FAMILIES OF SUICIDES DO NOT WANT THEIR CHILD'S NAME PUT ON ANY LIST, THEY ARE STILL COMPLICIT IN THE CRIME THAT KILLED THEIR CHILD.

So let me ask, are you saying that if I were deceased and you called my mother to ask her about my death and she told you to shit in your hat (which she would), she would be guilty of continuing to engage in child abuse by the denial of your request for information?

THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID.

While I respect your opinion, I definitely feel differently.  Frankly, I think that the program had way too much information about my life in the first place and that if anyone from straight came nosing around in my family business at this point in my life, my family obligation (as loving and caring folks) would be to kindly shoot the person in the face.  ::unhappy::  ::smokingun::

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS, DID ANYONE WITH ANY KIND OF LIST EVER CROSS CHECK IT WITH SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH RECORDS?

Yes.

FROM CONVERSATIONS WITH STRAIGHT SURVIVORS, STRAIGHT WAS A CONTINUATION OF THE CHILD ABUSE THEY WERE ALREADY GETTING AT HOME

From conversations?  Were you not in straight yourself?  If not, things are a little more difficult for me to explain...

Again, while I read and respect your words, I beg to differ with your opinion.  I wasn't abused by my parents, I ABUSED my parents in the worst of ways.  Granted, some more intense counseling would have been nice before I was sent to the gulag, but they were desperate parents looking deperately for some sort of solution.  They were sucked in hook, line, and sinker just like tens of thousands of other parents.

Also, I think there is an important distinction to make (and I am simply making the distinction, I do not have the time or energy to defend my stance on the issue and run around in circles about why I believe it makes sense).  In many ways the program was indeed responsible for more deaths than we could ever really and accurately count no matter what research method is used.  BUT even if the program never existed, I think common logic dictates that there would still be a high number of suicides amongst the same group of folks.  I have had a couple of friends from the program suicide over things that had absolutely nothing to do with the program, not even in some sort of roundabout way.  For instance, a mother suicided over a recent untimely death of her only child.  In some way this mother thought that through her death she would once again be with the child she loved so dearly.  It has nothing at all to do with straight (and she wouldn't want to be on anyone's list either, but that is another arguement).
In brief, correlation does not always imply causation.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... al_fallacy) for additional details on this arguement of logic.

Too much thinking, I need a smoke. ::bandit::

CHILD ABUSE IS NOT RANDOM CORRELATION-CAUSATION. THOUGHT REFORM HAS KNOWN CASUALTIES INCLUDING SUICIDE AND MENTAL ILLNESS.

YOUR SUGGESTION OF WHAT YOUR PARENTS WOULD DO IS QUITE ENOUGH INFORMATION FOR ME REGARDING YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HISTORY. IF YOU THINK YOUR PARENTS SHOULD "SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE FACE" WHO CALLED BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING RESEARCH, AND YOU THINK THAT IS A LOVING FAMILY RESPONSE...

CALLING SPECIAL ATTENTION TO THIS:
I think common logic dictates that there would still be a high number of suicides amongst the same group of folks.

SURE DUDE, IF YOUR LOGIC RUNS LIKE STRAIGHT'S LOGIC, SURE.

[Anonymous]

I ALSO SAY, IF FAMILIES OF SUICIDES DO NOT WANT THEIR CHILD'S NAME PUT ON ANY LIST, THEY ARE STILL COMPLICIT IN THE CRIME THAT KILLED THEIR CHILD.

So let me ask, are you saying that if I were deceased and you called my mother to ask her about my death and she told you to shit in your hat (which she would), she would be guilty of continuing to engage in child abuse by the denial of your request for information?

THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID.

While I respect your opinion, I definitely feel differently.  Frankly, I think that the program had way too much information about my life in the first place and that if anyone from straight came nosing around in my family business at this point in my life, my family obligation (as loving and caring folks) would be to kindly shoot the person in the face.  ::unhappy::  ::smokingun::

WHAT I WANT TO KNOW IS, DID ANYONE WITH ANY KIND OF LIST EVER CROSS CHECK IT WITH SOCIAL SECURITY DEATH RECORDS?

Yes.

FROM CONVERSATIONS WITH STRAIGHT SURVIVORS, STRAIGHT WAS A CONTINUATION OF THE CHILD ABUSE THEY WERE ALREADY GETTING AT HOME

From conversations?  Were you not in straight yourself?  If not, things are a little more difficult for me to explain...

Again, while I read and respect your words, I beg to differ with your opinion.  I wasn't abused by my parents, I ABUSED my parents in the worst of ways.  Granted, some more intense counseling would have been nice before I was sent to the gulag, but they were desperate parents looking deperately for some sort of solution.  They were sucked in hook, line, and sinker just like tens of thousands of other parents.

Also, I think there is an important distinction to make (and I am simply making the distinction, I do not have the time or energy to defend my stance on the issue and run around in circles about why I believe it makes sense).  In many ways the program was indeed responsible for more deaths than we could ever really and accurately count no matter what research method is used.  BUT even if the program never existed, I think common logic dictates that there would still be a high number of suicides amongst the same group of folks.  I have had a couple of friends from the program suicide over things that had absolutely nothing to do with the program, not even in some sort of roundabout way.  For instance, a mother suicided over a recent untimely death of her only child.  In some way this mother thought that through her death she would once again be with the child she loved so dearly.  It has nothing at all to do with straight (and she wouldn't want to be on anyone's list either, but that is another arguement).
In brief, correlation does not always imply causation.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlatio ... al_fallacy) for additional details on this arguement of logic.

Too much thinking, I need a smoke. ::bandit::

CHILD ABUSE IS NOT RANDOM CORRELATION-CAUSATION. THOUGHT REFORM HAS KNOWN CASUALTIES INCLUDING SUICIDE AND MENTAL ILLNESS.

YOUR SUGGESTION OF WHAT YOUR PARENTS WOULD DO IS QUITE ENOUGH INFORMATION FOR ME REGARDING YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HISTORY. IF YOU THINK YOUR PARENTS SHOULD "SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE FACE" WHO CALLED BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING RESEARCH, AND YOU THINK THAT IS A LOVING FAMILY RESPONSE...

CALLING SPECIAL ATTENTION TO THIS:
I think common logic dictates that there would still be a high number of suicides amongst the same group of folks.

SURE DUDE, IF YOUR LOGIC RUNS LIKE STRAIGHT'S LOGIC, SURE.

[Anonymous]

Very good point.  There is no way to truly deduce what the cause was, but perhaps those that did choose suicide, for whatever reason, were somehow, impaired (by whatever reason...be that their incarceration in Straight or other problems they endured in life) to be able to look beyond their overwhelming circumstances.

I have to say that your friend who killed herself, because of her child's death, was heartbreaking to me, also as a mother.

Agreed.  Anyone contemplating/choosing suicide is definitely not able to see beyond overwhelming circumstances and in turn flirt with what some call a "permanent solution to a temporary problem".  I hate to use such phrases, too close to the cultspeak I loathe to remember.  That phrase has helped someone close to my heart, though, so I don't mind repeating it.

I try to see things factually.  The program indelibibly scarred the lives of my family and I, but I don't scapegoat my all of my shortcomings on my stay at the Straight Inn.  If I were to throw it all away today some twenty something years later, I do not think it would have anything to do with straight, nor the bullies in junior high school, nor my parents divorce at a young age, nor the fact that my dog ran away, etc.

"Wine is fine, but whisky's quicker...suicide is slow with liquor"
Cheers.  
I need a drink.
 ::cheers::

[Valhalla]

I try to see things factually.  The program indelibibly scarred the lives of my family and I, but I don't scapegoat my all of my shortcomings on my stay at the Straight Inn.  If I were to throw it all away today some twenty something years later, I do not think it would have anything to do with straight, nor the bullies in junior high school, nor my parents divorce at a young age, nor the fact that my dog ran away, etc.

"Wine is fine, but whisky's quicker...suicide is slow with liquor"
Cheers.  
I need a drink.
 ::cheers::

I know what you mean here.  We weill all carry scarrs from that place.  But, I can't and don't blame all of my own personal problems being in there.  I had problems before and after.  There will always be problems.  Some may have had to do with the place, others did not in any way.  I choose to use the word 'realistically' here instead of 'factually'...I can realistically see what goes on in my life and I accept it as that.  I don't blame anyone or anything.  I just try to fix it.  That to me, is the only way to do it.

But, sadly, I don't think everyone is so lucky (for lack of a better word) to be able to do that.  And then, there are those who chose to have ended it.

BTW, I think you smoke and drink too much...according to your last few posts anyway.  :lol:

  :rofl:

[Anonymous]

YOUR SUGGESTION OF WHAT YOUR PARENTS WOULD DO IS QUITE ENOUGH INFORMATION FOR ME REGARDING YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HISTORY. IF YOU THINK YOUR PARENTS SHOULD "SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE FACE" WHO CALLED BECAUSE THEY WERE DOING RESEARCH, AND YOU THINK THAT IS A LOVING FAMILY RESPONSE...

My family aversion towards the program is endearing to me only because they know (and share) my feelings about that period in my life.  Shooting isn't punitive enough for all the misery straight has caused in my life twenty something years ago.  Come over to my house and talk about "program research", I won't invite you to stay for dinner.  I'll probably load a few shells into the gun.  Others that were there may do the same.  Sorry, it's a sore subject for some of us and and for me it's not a subject open to solicitations for information from strangers.  For me personally, it is no different if Mel or Miller personally showed up on my door step asking me how many days sobriety I have or if some NSA affiliated agent came by and said he knew about my stay and had some questions about my tenure in the program and how I am doing today.  Nope.  Not me.  

Don't come a'knockin and the gun hammer won't be a'cockin.

Now I have got to go smoke and drink some more to prove Valhalla right.  
Cheers.
 

[Valhalla]

Now I have got to go smoke and drink some more to prove Valhalla right.  
Cheers.
 

 
Well, don't overdo it on my account!  

[Anonymous]

In brief, correlation does not always imply causation.

 ::bangin::    :tup:

[Valhalla]

Hey 'Guest'!

You know which one you are...the one who I said smoked and drank too much   ...could you please PM me?  I've got something to ask of you.

Valhalla

[Anonymous]

Hey 'Guest'!

You know which one you are...the one who I said smoked and drank too much   ...could you please PM me?  I've got something to ask of you.

Valhalla

I'd like to V, but I don't use my registered name here anymore, don't pm, etc.  I suppose I could register a new alias for the sake of pm'ing you this once, I'm curious.

[Valhalla]

An alias is fine for me...

[Anonymous]

You have a PM !!

[Anonymous]

You'll know it is me by my user name.
 :wink:

[Valhalla]

Well, check your mail then!  I sent you one.

[Anonymous]

I'm trying to get together a list of those no longer with us for the Memorial Service.

If anyone knows a name that should be added or a clarification made, please let me know.

Here is the most complete list to date...

[Admin note: Edited out at the request of Valhalla, quoted author.]