Author Topic: ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?  (Read 18977 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #45 on: September 01, 2006, 04:17:28 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote
BM can be as simple as have a child, etc write about their feelings that, say, led to them lashing out innappropriately, for instance.  BM, can involve learning and, contrary to most of our experiences- it's not done in an inhumane manner.  BM can be done with care, empathy and support w/o condescension.
If there was truly a form of BM that was conducive with safety, empathy, and support, then it wouldn't be BM.  The entire basis behind BM is negative reinforcement...ie If you do X punishment will follow in one form or another.

Actually, you're both misinformed. The Guest who mentioned "write about their feelings" seems to have no idea what BM is or how it works. But the second guest who said "the entire basis behind BM is negative reinforecement" is referring only to the subset of BM principles that is used in the Programs for 'troubled teens.'

It IS possible to implement a humane BM program by using only two things -- positive reinforcement and extinction. In the example about "lashing out inappropriately," a humane BM program might look something like this:

Every time the child exhibits the desired behavior, expressing emotion "appropriately" (however that is defined, and it must be clearly defined), the child receives positive reinforcement -- verbal praise, a snack, extra free time, "points" that can be redeemed for something of value, etc. Different things are perceived as rewarding by different people, so the rewards must be varied and individualized.

Every time the child exhibits the undesired behavior, "lashing out inappropriately," (which also must be clearly defined) the behavior is ignored. No punishment, no reward, no attention paid to the behavior at all, because sometimes the reaction of others is itself a 'reward'. Eventually, by repeatedly rewarding the desired behavior and ignoring the undesired behavior, the undesired behavior becomes "extinct."

It's difficult to imagine that any 'troubled teen' BM program would have the patience to implement extinction rather than negative reinforcement. It's much easier, cheaper and perhaps more tempting for the programmies to just beat the kid or deny him or her food, sleep, etc. when he or she "lashes out inappropriately."



sorry...the fact that this is an argument relating to programs for "troubled teens" it was not being misinformed that prompted my view that BM is based on negative reinforcement.  I know that there are positive ways to approach it.  However, the fact remains that these programs DO NOT DO THAT.  Thus leading to the fact that BM is based in negative reinforcement.......when talking about these programs.....which is what this discussion involves.
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Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #46 on: September 01, 2006, 05:15:34 PM »
Remind me, are we talking about dogs or people?
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Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #47 on: September 01, 2006, 05:58:08 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
However, the fact remains that these programs DO NOT DO THAT.  Thus leading to the fact that BM is based in negative reinforcement.......when talking about these programs.....which is what this discussion involves.

I believe I tried to say that. I was just trying to point out that one poster gave an example that wasn't BM at all, and another tried to say BM isn't ALWAYS bad. Well, it IS always bad that way it is used in these programs, even though BM techniques exist that are more humane.

Quote
Remind me, are we talking about dogs or people?


Good point. The first premise of BM is that the person adminstering the BM program must have complete control over the subject, and that applies whether the subject is human or animal. In fact, successful and humane animal trainers are well-versed in exactly the 'gentler' BM techniques I mentioned. Those techniques are being used any time you see an animal in a Hollywood movie, or when you see dolphins doing tricks at Sea World. Those animals are rewarded when they perform the desired behavior and not rewarded when they don't, but they are never punished. ASPCA approves.

I realize that what I just wrote is going to make some people really angry. The sad fact is most people in our society care far more about how animals are treated than about how American teens are treated. The concept of keeping dolphins in captivity and training them to do tricks for tourists is more abhorrent to some people than what goes on in teen gulags every day under the false pretense of "treatment."
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Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2006, 04:04:58 PM »
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penal""
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BM can be as simple as have a child, etc write about their feelings that, say, led to them lashing out innappropriately, for instance.

Nobody with half a brain puts that under the category of 'behavior modification' as it is relevant to this board.

Stop trying to cloud the issue.


Not trying to cloud, but clarify the subtles of the issue and BM.
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Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2006, 04:07:02 PM »
Quote from: ""survivor122770""

 where are these programs? in your imagination


Perhaps... I'm guessing regulated facilies, the good ones use BM in that way- that's the only appropriate way, far as I can tell...

Again, I never experienced it, and BM is taken to an entirely innappropriate level at facilities I've attended and we all know about.  The point is simply that BM has appropraite uses.
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Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2006, 04:13:33 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
 The entire basis behind BM is negative reinforcement...ie If you do X punishment will follow in one form or another.  .


Well, for some writing their feelings down is a negative or considered punishments!  I don't think BM is punishment exclusively, it's a system of rewards and punishments.  Obviously there are shades of grey in this- one extreme (negative) is what we all lived through.  That doesn't make every BM system function in the same way!  Again, BM has it's uses- but I think most understand it's not optimal.  

I mean, after all, somethign like giving your kid a time out is a BM technique...  Doesn't seem like there is much harm in that.
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Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2006, 04:15:20 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
 I know that there are positive ways to approach it.  However, the fact remains that these programs DO NOT DO THAT.  Thus leading to the fact that BM is based in negative reinforcement.......when talking about these programs.....which is what this discussion involves.


100% agree with that!  Just see this

http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=35
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Offline Nihilanthic

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2006, 12:57:20 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
 The entire basis behind BM is negative reinforcement...ie If you do X punishment will follow in one form or another.  .

Well, for some writing their feelings down is a negative or considered punishments!  I don't think BM is punishment exclusively, it's a system of rewards and punishments.  Obviously there are shades of grey in this- one extreme (negative) is what we all lived through.  That doesn't make every BM system function in the same way!  Again, BM has it's uses- but I think most understand it's not optimal.  

I mean, after all, somethign like giving your kid a time out is a BM technique...  Doesn't seem like there is much harm in that.


Behavior modification institutions rely on isolation, captivity, and total control of their thoughts, feelings, where they can go, what they can do, and what information they have access to and what spin on everything they get from the institution.

Aka the "BITE" model.

PARENTING is not BM, BM is not parenting, and you cant get on a slippery slope and say time out somehow justifies what a BM program does, make it effective, or non-abusive.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2006, 04:02:06 PM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
PARENTING is not BM, BM is not parenting, and you cant get on a slippery slope and say time out somehow justifies what a BM program does, make it effective, or non-abusive.


Absolutely true. Parenting is not BM and vice versa. Similar principles are at work in terms of positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement and extinction, but the way parents intuitively use those principles is not BM. The same is true at work. Yes, you get rewarded for working hard and accomplishing goals, and punished (maybe fired) for being lazy and incompetent, but that is not BM either.

Parents (or employers) don't apply these principles in a methodical way that is carefully designed to coerce a CHANGE specific unwanted behaviors, with complete control over the subject's physical environment and utter disregard for the psychological damage that the behavior change program may incur.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline survivor122770

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #54 on: September 04, 2006, 05:52:06 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
 The entire basis behind BM is negative reinforcement...ie If you do X punishment will follow in one form or another.  .

Well, for some writing their feelings down is a negative or considered punishments!  I don't think BM is punishment exclusively, it's a system of rewards and punishments.  Obviously there are shades of grey in this- one extreme (negative) is what we all lived through.  That doesn't make every BM system function in the same way!  Again, BM has it's uses- but I think most understand it's not optimal.  

I mean, after all, somethign like giving your kid a time out is a BM technique...  Doesn't seem like there is much harm in that.

you have somehow wandered out into left field graspimg at straws to defend bm not necesarilly as a whole but your perception of a part of it. you should wake up and smell the roses and discuss bm as pertaining to this conversation.what you are talking about has nothing to do with bm programs . the program i went through had me write nothing and had no rewards. as a matter of fact there was a punishment for everything no matter what even if you did everything the way they wanted you to. you had to be ready for anything at any given second. you tried to be as quiet as possible and tried to make yourself as small and as invisible as you could. even when doing nothing wrong if you crossed their path of vision you became a target of their cruel version of fun. how i ask is this bm. its not it is torture and abuse by even the most lax standards
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
was tortured at bethel childrens home for 4 yrs 84-88 i was there when it was raided

Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #55 on: September 04, 2006, 06:39:08 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Actually, you're both misinformed. The Guest who mentioned "write about their feelings" seems to have no idea what BM is or how it works.


BM is not a tricky concept, punishment for bad behavior as opposed to ignoring it- which can include the 'consequence' for bad behavior of writing down feelings of a specific incident.  There's no cut and dry definition of what BM techniques must be- ie. not the act of writing down feeling, particularly if this is something someone dreads doing and views and punishment.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #56 on: September 04, 2006, 06:48:02 PM »
Quote from: ""survivor122770""
you have somehow wandered out into left field graspimg at straws to defend bm not necesarilly as a whole but your perception of a part of it. you should wake up and smell the roses and discuss bm as pertaining to this conversation.what you are talking about has nothing to do with bm programs .

I thought this conversation WAS about BM, in programs regulated and unregulated?  If anyone from here is to advocate for change we have to be clear on the issue and these concepts as well as how they were used to harm us, used innapropriately, etc

Quote from: ""survivor122770""
the program i went through had me write nothing and had no rewards.
 Mine did, and writing was not a reward- we had to write hundreds of pages- as part of modifying our behavior and getting us to become more vulnerable so that it could be used against us, as part of internalizing their values (which were contradictory)... we did not matter in the equation.

 
Quote from: ""survivor122770""
as a matter of fact there was a punishment for everything no matter what even if you did everything the way they wanted you to.

yup, same here

Quote from: ""survivor122770""
you had to be ready for anything at any given second.

that was the worst part for me- constant anxiety, all the time- waiting to be the focal point, to be pointed out as the bad kid.

Quote from: ""survivor122770""
you tried to be as quiet as possible and tried to make yourself as small and as invisible as you could.

I did that too!

Quote from: ""survivor122770""
its not it is torture and abuse by even the most lax standards


agreed!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline survivor122770

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #57 on: September 04, 2006, 08:06:14 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""survivor122770""
you have somehow wandered out into left field graspimg at straws to defend bm not necesarilly as a whole but your perception of a part of it. you should wake up and smell the roses and discuss bm as pertaining to this conversation.what you are talking about has nothing to do with bm programs .

I thought this conversation WAS about BM, in programs regulated and unregulated?  If anyone from here is to advocate for change we have to be clear on the issue and these concepts as well as how they were used to harm us, used innapropriately, etc

Quote from: ""survivor122770""
the program i went through had me write nothing and had no rewards.
 Mine did, and writing was not a reward- we had to write hundreds of pages- as part of modifying our behavior and getting us to become more vulnerable so that it could be used against us, as part of internalizing their values (which were contradictory)... we did not matter in the equation.

 
Quote from: ""survivor122770""
as a matter of fact there was a punishment for everything no matter what even if you did everything the way they wanted you to.

yup, same here

Quote from: ""survivor122770""
you had to be ready for anything at any given second.

that was the worst part for me- constant anxiety, all the time- waiting to be the focal point, to be pointed out as the bad kid.

Quote from: ""survivor122770""
you tried to be as quiet as possible and tried to make yourself as small and as invisible as you could.

I did that too!

Quote from: ""survivor122770""
its not it is torture and abuse by even the most lax standards

agreed!

this is bm as i know it. i have never experienced it as you spoke of . that would have been a vacation to me. i have been turned against bm in any form. simply put bm is negative reinforcement and i cant stomach it or support it as it is abused far to often.i dont think that it should be used  in any program as it is too tempting for the power hungry staff to abuse it. once done too many people want to turn their heads because that is much easier than speaking up. that is just as bad as the person doing the abuse. we must do away with it for their is no way to regulate someones silence
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
was tortured at bethel childrens home for 4 yrs 84-88 i was there when it was raided

Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #58 on: September 05, 2006, 05:40:48 AM »
We are talking about relatively mature, complex, emotional human beings here. Of course BM is not going to be effective. BM training is effective with dogs and dolphins but not with teenagers. At best it's effective when children are extremely young, obviously you cannot give a complex explanation to a two year old about why not to stare at the sun, you just give them a correction when you see them doing it. It is also somewhat effective with autistic children and retarded children. So why does anyone think it will be effective with 14-18 year olds?

Why it doesn't horrify parents to hear terms such as 'break down' and 'rebuild' when talking about their child's psyche, is unbelievable. Perhaps they do not know how fragile our psyche really is, but it doesn't take much to fuck it up for the remainder of one's life. Do they believe in a WWASP seminar that Gilcrease and his ilk will hold up a Men In Black style memory erasing technology wand, in order to reprogram their child? If not, how exactly do they imagine the 'old self' will be destroyed?

I don't think people understand what it feels like to be torn down with your deepest secrets in a roomful of crazed trainers and fearful participants. Words cannot explain the feeling of losing grip with your own reality. When an entire reality of people and surroundings is telling you something that isn't true, it physically hurts to hold onto your previous reality and they will fight you tooth and nail to get you to let go. You know if you accept what they say the pain will end, at least in the short term. It's a very traumatic and frightening experience, something program parents must not put much thought into. Or perhaps they buy into it, there were plenty of parents of graduates standing around the seminar room watching us being torn apart inside our own minds. I don't know how someone could do what they do.
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Offline Anonymous

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ODYSSEY TRANSPORT and Dr. Phil?
« Reply #59 on: September 05, 2006, 06:25:31 AM »
Someone pointed out that existing laws already prohibit a lot of the abuse that goes on in these places, and that the laws are simply not enforced. I'm not sure that's really true. The courts' interpretation of the 14th amendment gives parents a lot of leeway in making educational and health care decisions for their minor children.

That's step one -- exposing these places on the issues of education and health care. If the education is sub-standard or non-existent, how can they call themselves "schools?" If there is no evidence of following established mental health care practices, including assessment of progress by state-regulated practitioners, then they are not "therapeutic" either. This will need to be done on a facility by facility basis.

Once a facility loses its facade of being either a school or a therapeutic center, it will be left with no label other than "privately owned detention facility." And THAT is something I doubt would withstand current interpretations of parental 14th amendment rights. In that event, any advocate, including the state, would have cause for removing a minor from unlawful incarceration without due process.

BTW, I think the educational angle is the more productive avenue of attack. Many public school districts subsidize all or part of the fees these places charge, as a result of a couple different laws (like IDEA) and the typical school district's inability to provide a suitable education alternative for children with these types of 'special needs.' If the teen gulag "school' looks too much like a residential treatment facility, the public school district will say it's a health care facility and the parents' health insurance must foot the bill (which they won't, because they aren't stupid and they know this isn't really 'health care').

So it's a fine balancing act between presenting a "therapeutic" face to the parents, while simultaneously presenting an "educational" face to the public school district.

If you can eliminate the public school systems (our tax dollars!) paying for kids to be incarcerated, and force the entire bill on the parents, at least the number of kids being sent away will be reduced, until such time as these private detention facilities can be shut down for unlawful incarceration.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »