Author Topic: I used to hate people. but now...  (Read 12928 times)

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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2006, 01:47:10 AM »
That was mine. Somehow got logged out??
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline OverLordd

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« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2006, 02:15:11 AM »
How in the hell did this turn into a argument on class?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2006, 09:18:08 AM »
How classy of you.  :o
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2006, 11:46:33 PM »
Why should doctors receive an "average wage"  (as Deborah put it) when their education and training so exceeds the average?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2006, 04:23:24 AM »
Yeah I am surprised soldiers aren't paid more... or treated better for that matter. Or hell, even at least bring home some booty.  :lol:
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2006, 12:44:18 PM »
Quote from: ""[email protected]""
Why should doctors receive an "average wage"  (as Deborah put it) when their education and training so exceeds the average?


You misquoted me:
If the fees they charged were ?proportionate to the average wage?, they wouldn't be rich. They would be living comfortably like everyone else and people would not be going without medical care because they can't afford it.

Not only do doctors and pharmaceutical companies charge exorbitant fees for their services/products, we are moving toward mandatory insurance to pay those fees.
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php?t=16494

And why exactly should doctors be held in such high esteem? They don?t ?cure? anything. Their treatments kill many every year. They know nothing about preventing disease.
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... enic#72562
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2006, 01:28:47 PM »
I'm involved in some action sports and I've seen a lot of my friends 'put back together' using modern surgical techniques, and they wouldn't be able to walk otherwise... I'm sure they thought the price was worth it.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2006, 02:29:20 PM »
Yeh, surgeons are quiet useful in crisis situations- although one would be wise to mark the correct limb. While they may know how to put someone back together,  they often seem to not know left from right.  For this reason, I understand how people could consider their services to be "invaluable" and worth every penny of their exhorbitant fees.

Don't miss the point- A living wage so that all might have access to medical care when "necessary". It's quiet challenging for someone earning $7/hr to access the services of someone earning $400+/hr.

Folks in Mass are going to be forced to carry med insurance next year- whether they can afford it or not, and be fined (jailed?) if they dont- which will guarantee doctors fees.
I hope this pilot program doesn't spread around the country. What about those like myself who very rarely use regular MDs? We will be forced to help pay other's doctor bills while our alternative/preventive choices will not be covered.  That would suck. If I lived in Mass, I'd be planning to leave the state before the deadline.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2006, 04:02:08 PM »
Isn't a 'living wage' somewhat redundant, simply because if the person was not receiving a wage (work + any other income or beneifits) they could survive on, they would, literally, die. I do not see Americans dying in the streets of starvation, quite the opposite in fact. I see poor Americans dying of fatness. One might even make the argument, the majority of those left on the streets are mentally ill and/or addicted to alochol and drugs and could benefit from what modern medicine has to offer. Perhaps the medical establishment might be able to handle drug addiction better than the criminal justice system as well.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2006, 04:31:08 PM »
In America, the idea of making a living has come to mean the ability to support a modular family in a private home w/ at least one personal vehicle, vacation, travel and all the rest. When we say someone's not making a living wage, we usually mean that they're living partly off the public dole or help from friends and family.

I guess it would be hard for a European to comprehend the deep seated shame that an American feels for having to rely on the government for basic needs. I don't think most Americans even really understand where that comes from. Back in the old days, say around the time of the American Revolution, most people understood very well the perril of relying too heavily on the King for survival. A king can be arbitrary and cruel, withholding basic needs in order coerce his people into acting against their own best interst.

But these days, well it's just a throw back; 100th monkey sort of thing. We've forgotten that governments are not kindly, generous old grandmother figures who always have our best interest at heart and in deed. We just know that only loosers take the free lunch and government cheese.
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #40 on: July 17, 2006, 04:55:51 PM »
I've been through several day treatment type programs for adults, and got to see some pretty fucked up individuals. These were normal looking adults for the most part, your typical walmart crowd, until they started talking. Demons in the trunk of their car, tv show hosts talking directly to them, just crazy shit. The psychiatrists' that these people were seeing seemed to be interested in helping these people, genuinely. I've seen these people on and off the meds, and I have learned that meds do help some people, it's life and death. Sure, they shouldn't be putting every little kid on meds because they lack exercise, but some people really in need do benefit from government benefits. Did I mention all these folks were on medi-cal. If they didn't have the state's help, they would be on the street, have killed themselves already, or would be taken advantage of by someone intelligent and coherent enough to deceive them.
It's sad, because you wonder what the heck went haywire in their brain to cause such a dramatic decline of self awareness and reality. Some lived at home with family, many in group homes, and a few by themselves in apartments. The ones who lived by themselves tended not to do so well. Within a period of a week, one guy was brought in by cops after they caught him running across a major four lane highway, forgot to take his meds, oops. Another woman, cops brought her in to inpatient because she decided to stop her car on a busy freeway offramp, you know, the demon in the trunk -- oops -- someone forgot to take their meds.
Sometimes I think people romanticize the past. They used to just lock the mentally ill up in wharehouses. Ring a bell anyone?
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2006, 06:48:03 PM »
I know 3 springs is going to strongly disagree here, but isn't the whole role of govt anywhere to fill the gaps that the private enterprise system can't. Eg to provide education to all children & healthcare to anyone who does not make enough money to afford it themselves or to regulate an industry so that it can limit any harm it is doing? eg: setting down a minimum wage so that no adult has to live off $7.00 per hr. I don't necessarily take issue with what any doctor or other highly paid private industry professional earns, but I can't understand why teachers & public sector workers do not get paid equally as they have studied hard & provide an invaluable service. I would be much happier if this is where my taxes went predominantly.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2006, 08:12:23 PM »
Mentally Ill only make up less than a quarter of the homeless population.
http://wwf.avigation.net/viewtopic.php? ... ess#102828
http://nch.ari.net/jobs.html
Nat'l Coalition for the Homeless
The connection between impoverished workers and homelessness can be seen in homeless shelters, many of which house significant numbers of full-time wage earners. A survey of 30 U.S. cities found that almost one in five homeless persons is employed (U.S. Conference of Mayors, 1998). In a number of cities not surveyed by the U.S. Conference of Mayors - as well as in many states - the percentage is even higher (National Coalition for the Homeless, 1997).
The future of job growth does not appear promising for many workers: a 1998 study estimated that 46% of the jobs with the most growth between 1994 and 2005 pay less than $16,000 a year; these jobs will not lift families out of poverty (National Priorities Project, 1998).2 Moreover, 74% of these jobs pay below a livable wage ($32,185 for a family of four). [Note: that is nowhere near a living wage for a fam of 4]

Wikipedia has a good definition, here?s an excerpt:
The term "living wage" is used by advocates to refer to the minimum hourly wage necessary for a person to achieve some specific standard of living. In the context of developed countries such as the United Kingdom or Switzerland, this standard generally means that a person working forty hours a week, with no additional income, should be able to afford a specified quality or quantity of housing, food, utilities, transport, health care, and of recreation. This concept differs from the minimum wage in that the latter is set by law, and may fail to meet the requirements of a living wage.

In the United States, several municipalities and local governments have enacted ordinances which set a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum for the purpose of requiring all jobs to meet the living wage for that region. Often, these ordinances only apply to certain types of businesses, such as those receiving government contracts. However, San Francisco, California, Santa Fe, New Mexico, and Madison, Wisconsin have notably passed very wide-reaching living wage ordinances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_wage
~~

LW for Austin, Tx was determined to be $9.79/hr by the LW Coalition. The formula for calculating it:
http://www.main.org/alwc/wageformula.htm

It?s a myth that the homeless are largely ?mentally ill?.
The survey was conducted in 14 homeless shelters run by Volunteers of America in Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Tennessee. There were 202 homeless families in those shelters; they included a total of 370 children. The survey found that 42 percent of the adults were employed, and that 28 percent of them had never received public assistance.
According to the survey the median income for working homeless families in the four states is $988/mo. Volunteers of America figures the cost of housing, food and child care exceeds that by about 20 percent. [Only $1185 for housing, food, child care? No way. Unrealistic.]
http://www.universallivingwage.org/

You can learn more about the demographics by reading the Conference of Mayors report:
http://www.usmayors.org/uscm/hungersurv ... er2000.pdf
Across the survey cities it is estimated that single men comprise 44 percent of the homeless population, families with children 36 percent, single women 13 percent and unaccompanied youth 7 percent. Sixty-three percent of the homeless families in the survey cities are headed by a single parent.
Survey city officials estimated that 50 percent of the population is African-American, 35 percent is white, 12 percent is Hispanic, 2 percent is Native-American and one percent is Asian.
It is estimated that persons considered mentally ill account for 22 percent of the homeless population in the survey cities; substance abusers account for 37 percent. Twenty-six percent of the homeless in the survey cities are employed in full-or part-time jobs. Fifteen percent are veterans.
A number of diverse and complex factors have contributed to the problems of homelessness in the survey cities. Many of these factors are interrelated. Listed in order of frequency, the following causes were identified by the cities in response to an open-ended question: lack of affordable housing, low paying jobs, substance abuse and the lack of needed services, mental illness and the lack of needed services, domestic violence, poverty, and changes and cuts in public assistance.
An average of 29 percent of the eligible low-income households are currently served by assisted housing in the survey cities.
Officials in the survey cities estimate that low-income households spend an average of 51 percent of their income on housing.
[Seriously, I would like to see the tables turned (fantasy), whereby those earning $50K or more paid 51% of their earnings for housing, which would supplement those who aren?t earning a LW. Ya think the middle/owning class would go for an economy that demanded that much of their income for housing? Never.]
While the economy is strong, we need to be very mindful of the economy of many individuals. In this population, employment still often means minimum wages. In that framework, here is the math: 40 hours/week X $5.50/hour X 4.5 weeks/month = $990 month. gross $990 X .15 taxes = $842 month. net Average low-income rent = $350 Average low-income utilities payment = $150 Remaining monies = $342. $342 is to cover all other costs that these individuals have, which includes, but is not limited to, food, personal hygiene items, home cleaning items, transportation, clothing, telephone and/or access, potential health insurance premiums or co-pays, insurance for their homes/furniture and other costs of living. Three Hundred and Forty Two dollars may be considered enough for an individual living alone, but what is the effect of this income on a family?

Sorry to disagree about teacher?s pay, but around here they earn plenty for their contribution, and get a 2.5 month paid vacation every year. They are way down ?my? list of groups who need a pay raise.
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2006, 09:43:33 PM »
If Texas is any indication of Teacher salaries; not too many teachers should be complaining about salaries.

Salary for a begning teacher, with no experience, BA DEGREE:
State contract: 180 days per year.  (9 months on...3 months off)
Normal hours: 8Am - 3:30 PM

Granted teachers do have to grade papers etc after school hours.
Probably have to attend a monthly PTA meeting.
Some may have to participate in extra activities: but strong Teacher Unions do not allow teachers to "work for free."
Coaching, etc pays extra.

Dallas ISD:  $44,159
Austin ISD:  $38,190
Corpus Chrisit ISD    $42,000
Northside, San Antonio: $42,153
   This District is advertising for 700 teachers for 2006/2007
Houston ISD:  $40,268
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2006, 11:58:01 PM »
Never be sorry to disagree. It is a freedom that so many kids in facilities are apparently denied. :wink:
i am an enormous hypocrite because i enter this debate as a middle income earner who really likes my life. What can i say,  i went to the chardonnay school of socialism so i can't see the benefits of charging the middle and upper classes so much in either rent or tax that they have a significantly reduced disposable income. This leds to recession which amounts to reduced quality of life for all.
I do believe in some level of govt intervention both in the economy and in the setting of wages. i realise that this is extremely unamerican but nobody can trust the market alone. Why would i as a greedy empolyer pay my worker more than minimum if i did not have to? This is where interventionism is vital because it sets a minimum standard of wages and conditions for workers and provides them with a fair go. Australia used to have a real comittment to this principal but we are now going the way of America & it is a real shame.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen