The Who

[TheWho]

I see your point, if you are trying to deceive then yes you would not want to be regulated either.  But by not wanting to be regulated doesn?t mean you have something to hide.  I guess that was my point in a round about way.

So every boarding school needs this license/regulation?  Or is it the therapy part that drives this need?

I think most parents assume the state is doing their job and the places are licensed.  If they were told the place was unlicensed I believe most would want to understand why, like myself.

[RobertBruce]

In a place where safety is a chief concern these places should not only seek oversight and regulation, but they should advertise it as well. Recall my analogy about the resturant displaying their 5 star health certification, they wanted people to know that the government had rated them as being safe. If the PTS really cared about child safety they would do the same thing, regardless of the cost or the extra work. Avoiding says they have something to hide.
Nothing more.

I'm curious as to why youre asking about this now, you didnt care when you locked your daughter up.

[psy]

Regulation needs to be forced in order to work and it needs teeth.  If a kid has the option of getting a drivers license or not he probably wouldn?t get one if there were no consequences.  You could sit the kid down and say ?If you take the test you will have a certificate that shows you are a good driver?.  He may respond ?I know I am a good drive what good is a license to me?.  

Companies that avoid regulation don?t necessarily do so because they would have to disband using abusive tactics but because regulation is a pain in the ass and they don?t feel it adds value, they would have to give up control of their own process which they intimately believe works very well.

Whoo.  Belief!  Now there's some hard evidence!  My grandmother intimately believes if you have a dream about dying, somebody in your family will die.  There's even some evidence to support it (here sister last year)

Now why would regulation make them abandon some practices?  Hmm?

From a business perspective if I was going to have to replace my ?GED?s?  with ?PhD?s?  I would ask for a year to comply and then find another business to get into because it may be too expensive,

No.  You would simply sell the place and move to another state.... which is what everybody else has been doing.  Montana seems to be the new hotspot for programs now that Utah is starting to get a grip...

TBS?s are very expensive as it is, maybe because they are pocketing a ton or maybe because of their small size.  I really don?t know their cost structures.

They're pocketing a ton.  Yes i know this for a fact in my case but cannot say how (plead the fifth on this one)...  PM me if you really want to know exactly how profitable one school with (officially) 50 kids is.

From a parents perspective, I would like to see regulation, fully accredited with all group sessions run by Phd?s and a phone in each childs room,

Hmm.  naw... the phones would be too expensive.  Unfeasable from a business standpoint...

but I saw what help was available, what the industry standard was and built further confidence that I was making the right decision because our local therapist thought it was a good match.

Local therapists generally know very little about this industry in detail...  I mention where my shrink sent a kid?  I hit the roof when he told me where the kid went.

I don?t know what the answer is, but I know the schools wont sign up for regulation until the parents require it or the states do.  There are not enough parents in any one particular state that would care or even know enough to care so the state would have to step up and hold their feet to the fire.

Yup.  It does take a while for the locals to catch on...  If they want to, considering many "schools" bring a lot of business to rural areas.  Go watch the PBS Montana Documentary...

And when they do figure it out...  well You can cross Utah off the list...  there are still 49 states to set up shop in...  and a lot of third world countries.

[hanzomon4]

It's really sad but the third world countries shut these places down faster then we do here in the states.

[psy]

Why don't they advertise as "programs".. SIMPLE! Because that would require they submit to state regulation which would make the less "savory" aspects of program unfeasible (the same aspects that make such schools so profitable).

Exactly! The only thing that ever matters at these places is the bottom line.

I am a very cynical person.  I spent my early teenage years in Romania...  Money corrupts.  Period.  I've seen ambulances leave people to die becuase they couldn't pay (and the care is supposed to be free...  that's a joke).  Street kids?  200,000 (no that is not a typo) of them living in the sewers and drainage canals.  They often freeze to death in the winter.  How did they get there?  Parents abandoned them...  Parents are too cheap/too lazy/too drunk to care.  At the same time you see Mercedes benzes all over the place.  How do people treat the streat kids?  By and large like shit.. worse than shit.  The police beat the kids for fun... in public...  and people cheer.  Why?  Because those little fuckers are a nuisance when you're at a stop-light and they "clean" your windshield.

I've seen incidences of corruption and depravity you wouldn't believe.  Who: Don't be so arrogant as to think that the US is above this.  People are the same the world over.  We just don't do such things as openly...  If you don't regulate... and enforce the regulations...  things will turn to shit as people will exploit the system.  This goes back to the loophole...  Ever seen one that hasn't been exploited?  Of course not.. becuase as soon as one is pointed out, somebody will take advantage of it.  Who succeeds in an amoral world where the bottom line defines success?  The ruthless.

whoops... time to go to French class.

No way, psy, I am a little familiar with that area too, I have family from Chrisinau Maldova and a family friend who was born in Romania and still travels there to see his family. We helped Romania expose their treatment of kids in the state run baby houses,

good.  Though most of those kids are permanently damaged at this point.  You know if you don't rotate them once every few weeks they tend to stick to the mattress (you know what i'm talking about).

they allowed the cameras back in after a few years to show us what a great job they did and how they are educating and assisting the parents financially to keep these kids in a family environment only to find out they just moved the baby houses to a different part of the country and changed their names under the guises of adoption homes and the abuse is still continuing,

Just like...  well.  i'll leave you to figure that out.

they suck and they should all be shot. I know it won?t stop in my lifetime.

Really?  Wouldn't be so sure about that.  I was just there in December.  Rumor has it the country is holding itself together with tissue paper.  Another revolution?  It's possible.  The rich get richer...  until the whole house of cards collapses.  Happens every time.  Most Romanians just want the hell out of there anyway.  Most of the educated doctors and lawyers all left long ago...

What you say is exactly right about the kids there and that could happen openly here if we allowed it. But there will always be loop holes and we need to keep exposing them and plugging them and businesses will never ever volunteer to be regulated, whether it is your local dry cleaner with the solvents he uses or a TBS. The state/people need to enforce regulation where they feel it is necessary and impose harsh penalties.

My my.  Are you arguing for regulation?  and enforcement of it?

I have experienced my share of corruption in that area of the world.  One of my experiences was when I boarded an old double prop Russian plane bound for Almaty.

Aeroflot?  :lol:  I love flying on that airline...  It's even better than Tarom.

The plane had racks above the seats like you would see on a greyhound bus (you were probably on one of these), so every time we hit turbulence stuff would just fall down into the isle or on top of you. I placed my carry on bag which contained my laptop, some cash and sealed paperwork bound for the US Embassy in Almaty up front in a secure area so it wouldn?t fall. When we arrived I was told to leave my bag and wait at the gate. Even though it is a big city the airport was small and you just get off the plane and walk to an outdoor waiting area, so they didn?t want you to have to carry all your stuff. Anyway to make a long story short, My bag never showed and I watched everyone going by, I had no translator and I knew my bag was on the plane.

:rofl:  never.. ever... ever.... give away your bag.  to anybody.  period.  I carry backpacks facing forward when i'm in Romanian airports.

So I walked back and we all stood there, I finally walked back on the plane and couldn?t find it. So after an hour of refusing to move away from the plane a police person showed up, he spoke a little English, I told him about the bag and paperwork bound for the US Embassy and he started screaming at the pilot walked on and came out with my bag and asked me to go thru it (it was in the pilots cabin or cockpit). When my translator showed up she told me it was typical all they wanted was a reward for finding it, if you had given them $50 you could have had it right away,

A tip right? :rofl:

they weren?t thieves and didn?t want to steal your bag or anything, just regular people. People over there have lived with corruption for so long it just becomes a part of life and is accepted on a daily bases.

Yeah.  In Romania we had to pay to get the garbage taken out...  or they would just leave it.  Usually a bottle of foreign whisky for Chrismas would do it.  You're right though.  It really is part of the culture over there.

[psy]

It's really sad but the third world countries shut these places down faster then we do here in the states.

oh fuck no they don't

hah!  Look.  Abuse anywhere is bad... but unless the foreigners come in..

nobody gives a shit.  and usually what happens is this:
The foregners come...
see atrocity
wave finger
authorities wave finger, promise to fix, shake hands, photo op
foreigners leave
"ok everybody.  you can relax now.. they're gone... now where's my cut?"

It's sad... but not an exaggeration.

[psy]

?no one wants others to come in and audit their systems or try to tell them what to do. I don?t know of any families that call DSS to come visit them on a monthly basis to check things out or Corporations inviting OSHA in to visit. It?s a pain in the butt, they need to schedule people to escort them around, file paperwork, take them out to lunch and with DSS it is time you could be spending with your family, take time off work etc.. Most feel there is no value added. Everyone feels, probable yourself included, they are dong the best job possible and don?t value oversight.?  

well boo hoo.  i think the kids value oversight.

[psy]

Having the public know the truth, that you're operating fraudulently without a license, couldn't possibly "add value".

aah... but what they don't know... can't hurt them... but can fuck up their kids right good.

Some are too desperate to care, other's are outraged when they discover the truth.

Most are too happy with their beliefs of what happened to ever consider the possibility that they might have made a mistake...  too much guilt... so no considering that possibility...

[psy]

I see your point, if you are trying to deceive then yes you would not want to be regulated either.  But by not wanting to be regulated doesn?t mean you have something to hide.  I guess that was my point in a round about way.

Well i don't want to obey the speed limit but i would suppose quite a few pedestrians (and my insurance provider) are glad i (mostly) do.

So every boarding school needs this license/regulation?  Or is it the therapy part that drives this need?

The therapy part i would say.  Schools should not be able to advertise services such as "we deal with depression, adhd, substance abuse, bla bla, nose picking, bla bla, disturbing rock music"  Is that infringing on free speech?  No.  Why?  Because it is willful misrepresentation of provided services.  My parents assumed (as did quite a few i have talked to), that counselors were licenced and properly trained... that was not the case.  When a school, says "we have group therapy in the afternoon"...  What is a parent to think?  It's not in writing though... so it never happened.

Point is.  If a facility is licenced as a school, it should be just that.  If the kids have substance issues?  30 day treatment facilities deal with that just fine.  It's not a long term thing, and a kid can easily get an excuse from school.  It also teaches them what program cannot: how to avoid substances in the real world...  not some CEDUized cult bubble.

I think most parents assume the state is doing their job and the places are licensed.  If they were told the place was unlicensed I believe most would want to understand why, like myself.

Well who is going to tell them.  You're damn right the school isn't going to... and even if they do... what is to guarantee they are telling the truth.  NATSAP has a lot of letters... it sounds legit...  "we're a NATSAP school".. or "we have a private school affidavit"...  parents say: "OOH.. i don't know  what that word means... so it must be legitimate..."

... aah.. but such is the result of industry self-regulation.

[hanzomon4]

I was thinking Mexico, but yeah you're right about the "BiGwOrD must be important" thing

[TheWho]

Psy Wrote:

Well i don't want to obey the speed limit but i would suppose quite a few pedestrians (and my insurance provider) are glad i (mostly) do.

But what if you were a cab driver and you did obey the speed limit because it was the right thing to do and then the regulation people come along and wanted to start installing devices in all the cars to send data back to their office so they could monitor (regulate) your speed from their office.  They send you a letter in the mail and say it is really a good idea if you get this device, it will help out the state and your fares in the long run.  Just give us a call when you are ready and then drive out to see us and we will give you the device.  You can then go to your local service station or dealer and have it installed at a nominal price.  The service will only cost you a few dollars a month.  If a violation occurs and you exceed the speed limit, say doing 37 mph in a 35mph zone we would not issue a summons right away but would give you the opportunity to respond to us in writing on why you exceeded the limit and what you intend to do in the future to insure it doesn?t happen again.  We would review it and determine if you should be fined or not.  You can always drive out and protest the decision in person if you like.
How many cabbies would sign up?  If you didn?t sign up would it make you a terrible driver?  Would it mean you are trying to hide something about your driving habits?  Would you be the first one in line?

If I came along and told you that the state was swamped and had no funding to follow up on all of this and if you don?t get the device they wouldn?t know it for two years at least and there would be no fines, anyway.  Which way would you go?  Would your decision make you a bad person or your fares be put in any worse danger?

[Anonymous]

But what if you were a cab driver and you did obey the speed limit because it was the right thing to do and then the regulation people come along and wanted to start installing devices in all the cars to send data back to their office so they could monitor (regulate) your speed from their office.  They send you a letter in the mail and say it is really a good idea if you get this device, it will help out the state and your fares in the long run.  Just give us a call when you are ready and then drive out to see us and we will give you the device.  You can then go to your local service station or dealer and have it installed at a nominal price.  The service will only cost you a few dollars a month.  If a violation occurs and you exceed the speed limit, say doing 37 mph in a 35mph zone we would not issue a summons right away but would give you the opportunity to respond to us in writing on why you exceeded the limit and what you intend to do in the future to insure it doesn?t happen again.  We would review it and determine if you should be fined or not.  You can always drive out and protest the decision in person if you like.
How many cabbies would sign up?  If you didn?t sign up would it make you a terrible driver?  Would it mean you are trying to hide something about your driving habits?  Would you be the first one in line?

If I came along and told you that the state was swamped and had no funding to follow up on all of this and if you don?t get the device they wouldn?t know it for two years at least and there would be no fines, anyway.  Which way would you go?  Would your decision make you a bad person or your fares be put in any worse danger?

But what if you wewe a cab dwivew and you did obey the speed wimit because it was the wight thing to do and then the weguwation peopwe come awong and wanted to stawt instawwing devices in aww the caws to send data back to theiw office so they couwd monitow (weguwate) youw speed fwom theiw office. Dey send you a wettew in the maiw and say it is weawwy a good idea if you get this device, it wiww hewp out the state and youw fawes in the wong wun, uh-hah-hah-hah. Just give us a caww when you awe weady and then dwive out to see us and we wiww give you the device. You can then go to youw wocaw sewvice station ow deawew and have it instawwed at a nominaw pwice. De sewvice wiww onwy cost you a few dowwaws a month. If a viowation occuws and you exceed the speed wimit, say doing 37 mph in a 35mph zone we wouwd not issue a summons wight away but wouwd give you the oppowtunity to wespond to us in wwiting on why you exceeded the wimit and what you intend to do in the futuwe to insuwe it doesn?t happen again, uh-hah-hah-hah. We wouwd weview it and detewmine if you shouwd be fined ow not. You can awways dwive out and pwotest the decision in pewson if you wike. How many cabbies wouwd sign up? If you didn?t sign up wouwd it make you a tewwibwe dwivew? Wouwd it mean you awe twying to hide something about youw dwiving habits? Wouwd you be the fiwst one in wine? If I came awong and towd you that the state was swamped and had no funding to fowwow up on aww of this and if you don?t get the device they wouwdn?t know it fow two yeaws at weast and thewe wouwd be no fines, anyway. Which way wouwd you go? Wouwd youw decision make you a bad pewson ow youw fawes be put in any wowse dangew?

[RobertBruce]

And if the PTS really wasnt abusing kids there probably wouldnt be a problem and they would be willing to spend that money and time just to ensure parents that everything is on the up and up.

However they do as a matter of habit abuse kids, and on occasion kill kids, and everything is not on the up and up. So they lie to parents and they lie to state agencies.

For the companies that do follow the law even without some constantly looking over their shoulder I'm sure it is a pain in the ass, unfortunatly as it relates to this industry the track record suggest they need to be watched like a hawk and will exploit every loophole and avoid every regulation they can that they find to be inconvienent.

[Anonymous]

uh-hah-hah-hah...

[RobertBruce]

Oh and I'm still waiting on you to answer this Cindy:

Wait wait wait......tell me when did this "long debate" take place, and with whom? Further at when point were you deemed an expert that you can decide what is best for parents? Cindy you arent even close to be able to make such a call, your own daughter by your own addmission hates you. The thing I can't decide is if youre just crazy and really believe your own selfimportance or if youre just an asshole. Probably a little of both.