Author Topic: The Who  (Read 862298 times)

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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #1095 on: January 18, 2007, 08:34:04 PM »
Of course when the TBS owners trying to avoid it like the plauge helps as well. I think Deborah mentioned a case out in Montana, the guy went so far as to write his own legislation that exempted all TBS's in the state from any sort of oversight or state regulation. My question is if they have nothing to hide and they are truly interested in providing a safe enviroment for the kids why would they avoid the regulation. I would think that would like the resturant be something they would want to advertise "Look at us, we follow the law and provide a safe enviroment and we can prove it"

I'm looking for your explination other than excessive paper work (something we don't even know to be that big of a deal) as to why they wouldnt want state oversight.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #1096 on: January 18, 2007, 08:36:04 PM »
Quote
Fair enough, I can tell you that the trend on the ISAC site would seem to suggest deaths, suicides, and rapes, are occuring more frequently in TBS's as time goes by. My guess however would be that it may not be the frequency is increasing but rather more and more these things are coming to light. There's almost no incidents listed as having occured prior to the early 90's yet I'm sure Anne or Ginger could tell us of more than a few deaths rapes or suicides occuring when they were in Straight in the 70's and 80's. You also have an abnormality in the data for public schools for that time span as it includes Columbine. Something of that mangnitude certianlly doesnt occur every year.


I can agree with that.  There could be under reporting.   Kids at TBS?s have more one on one intimate contact with adults than do public school kids which raises the chances of them getting abused.  If oversight and regulation is forced upon the industry there could well be a step function increase in reported occurrences of abuse.  If this occurred and the TBS?s showed a substantially high rate of abuse, law suits, deaths, rapes etc. then the people in power would be holding the TBS?s feet to the fire  (because the voters would want answers, not that they are   interested) in a heart beat I believe and ?60 minutes?  would be camping on their doorsteps.
I am happy to see that there is someone credible/ accountable (ISAC) collecting this information from the programs.  I don?t mean to slight anyone here who is collecting data, but one questionable data point and the judge will throw the who list out the window.
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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #1097 on: January 18, 2007, 08:39:48 PM »
Hence why many of us push for regulation of the industry and why many of us are celebrating HLA being forced to apply for licensure.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #1098 on: January 18, 2007, 08:58:00 PM »
Quote
I'm looking for your explination other than excessive paper work (something we don't even know to be that big of a deal) as to why they wouldnt want state oversight.


I have a company which requires 90 day inspections (inspections every 90 days) from OSHA because of an accident we had 2 years ago.  I truly believe they add value and are a needed to our industry.   We run a very safe facility and are proud of it, anyone can come in any time, the employees? safety always comes first and we have an open policy.  But dam it when OSHA calls I have to take some people off their regular assignments to go down to the manufacturing floor to make sure everything is in place so I feel comfortable, run a report, take time for meetings, take them out to lunch.
If it came to a vote tomorrow whether to discontinue OSHA as a department I would vote them to stay in a minute.  But if they missed or canceled an inspection I wouldn?t be on the horn to reschedule.
The same with ISO 9000 certification.  These guys are all up inside your underwear day and night until they are happy.  But we get a rating which allows us to ship directly to another companies warehouse without inspection and saves us money.

So is it all about the money?  The ISO 9000 definitely yes.  OSHA, no I wouldn?t bitch if they missed a day,  but I like knowing my people are safe and have the latest equipment.  

So I guess I just told myself that the TBS?s should pursue a course to insure the safety of their kids and employees.  Why they don?t do this I really don?t know, I can only speculate:

1)   The regulation is very costly
2)   doesn?t add value to what they do
3)   wouldn?t help the kids or employees
4)   They are trying to hide something
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #1099 on: January 18, 2007, 09:23:52 PM »
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Of course when the TBS owners trying to avoid it like the plauge helps as well. I think Deborah mentioned a case out in Montana, the guy went so far as to write his own legislation that exempted all TBS's in the state from any sort of oversight or state regulation.


Not just any ol guy. Paul Clark is a State Rep. Involved (used to own) in two programs. Advertises that he provided therapy at both facilities, and has no license. And is advocating for self-regulation. Hope Schmidt nails his ass in the next legislative session.

Speaking of unethical practices.... gotta get over to the Aspen forum and read THIS....
 http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20389

A teaser from the summary- you gotta read this document. Goes into great detail about the details of this program and how it fails in so many ways. Aspen Education Group  :scared: :

Educational Benefit
Dr. Conway**, Ms. Bitz and J.J.?s parents expressed the belief that J.J. was not ready to leave the highly structured and supervised environment provided at MBA, and that he would regress during after-school hours and his behavior would deteriorate. Even if this is true, it does not prove that J. J. would not receive educational benefit from his IEP.
**Dr. Conway is/was MBAs consulting psych. Didn't bother to mention it before or during the IEP fiasco. Ms Bitz of course, is the Adm Dir for MBA.
Gets better. Explorations Wilderness, no prof staff, recommends MBA, who has no professional staff, yet they're 'assessing' this kid with major problems that need two years to 'fix'. Aspen will later acquire Explorations. Kid also ends up going to SUWS. Unbelievable nightmare story.

Ms. Pack-Patton, Ms. Harrell and Mr. Dunn all believed that J.J.?s IEP could be implemented at the BIS program even if J.J.?s parents were unable to provide adequate reinforcement at home. Mr. Miller believed J.J. could be successful in the BIS program even if his parents had difficulty
controlling his behavior at home, although J.J.?s likelihood of attaining his annual goals in the September IEP would be diminished if he did not behave well at home. Ms. Pack-Patton observed that students with the kinds of problems J.J. experienced often had trouble in the community with their peers and parents, and that it was usually more successful to maintain them in the community where they needed to develop new skills. As Ms. Pack-Patton and Ms. Harrell have the most personal experience with the BIS program, the students it serves and its effectiveness, I give their testimony the most weight in evaluating this issue.

MBA and Other Residential Placements
FINAL ORDER
J.J. & West Linn-Wilsonville S.D., Page 38
The parents, in their initial hearing request, claimed the District was denying J.J. a FAPE by refusing to continue his enrollment at MBA. Subsequently they broadened their claim by asserting that J.J. required placement at MBA or another residential facility in order to receive a FAPE.
Despite this change in the parents? assertion, all of their evidence is essentially related to J.J.?s education at MBA. For example, both Dr.Conway and Dr. Moran noted that if J.J. did not have the opportunity to finish his MBA program it would represent another (damaging) failure for him. This claim is irrelevant both to any educational need J.J. may have and to the parents? later position that J.J. could receive a FAPE at a residential facility other than MBA.

MBA cannot provide J. J. with a FAPE. It lacks the trained personnel necessary to implement the counseling provisions of J.J.?s September 1999 IEP, which (other than the placement recommendation) met with the approval of all participants. In fact, it lacks any mental health professionals or trained special education teachers who can address the ?psychiatric issues? which Dr. Conway identified as ?a formidable barrier to [J.J.?s] ability to benefit from regular educational opportunities.?
See excerpt from Dr. Conway?s April 1999 evaluation, quoted in Exhibit A57.
It does not offer daily communication with J.J.?s parents.** And, significantly, it provides few opportunities for students to interact with nondisabled peers. Another residential facility might be able to satisfy the requirements in the September 1999 IEP. Nevertheless, no residential facility would be the least restrictive environment in which J.J. can receive educational benefit.
**In fact, the document said they only had contact every two weeks.

Summary
The BIS program, with the additional supports and services described in the September 1999 IEP, offers J.J. a free, appropriate public education in the least restrictive environment where he can receive educational benefit. There is no convincing evidence that J.J. requires a residential
placement in order to receive educational benefit. Rather, the evidence indicates that the parents enrolled J.J. in MBA because, despite their strenuous and loving efforts, it had become impossible for them to control J.J. or feel comfortable and safe with him at home.
 ::mecry:: No free babysitting.

A residential placement in a remote location in central Oregon is a considerably more restrictive option for J.J. than education in the BIS program at a local high school, where he would interact with nondisabled as well as disabled students and would be able to live with his parents. It therefore does not meet the mandate of the IDEA. See 20 USC §1412(a)(5), 34 CFR§300.550.
FINAL ORDER
J.J. & West Linn-Wilsonville S.D., Page 39
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #1100 on: January 18, 2007, 10:11:17 PM »
Quote
I have a company which requires 90 day inspections (inspections every 90 days) from OSHA because of an accident we had 2 years ago. I truly believe they add value and are a needed to our industry. We run a very safe facility and are proud of it, anyone can come in any time, the employees? safety always comes first and we have an open policy. But dam it when OSHA calls I have to take some people off their regular assignments to go down to the manufacturing floor to make sure everything is in place so I feel comfortable, run a report, take time for meetings, take them out to lunch.
If it came to a vote tomorrow whether to discontinue OSHA as a department I would vote them to stay in a minute. But if they missed or canceled an inspection I wouldn?t be on the horn to reschedule.
The same with ISO 9000 certification. These guys are all up inside your underwear day and night until they are happy. But we get a rating which allows us to ship directly to another companies warehouse without inspection and saves us money.

So is it all about the money? The ISO 9000 definitely yes. OSHA, no I wouldn?t bitch if they missed a day, but I like knowing my people are safe and have the latest equipment.

So I guess I just told myself that the TBS?s should pursue a course to insure the safety of their kids and employees. Why they don?t do this I really don?t know, I can only speculate:

1) The regulation is very costly
2) doesn?t add value to what they do
3) wouldn?t help the kids or employees
4) They are trying to hide something


The answer is number 4.
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Offline Ganja

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« Reply #1101 on: January 18, 2007, 10:58:12 PM »
DING! DING! DING!
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #1102 on: January 18, 2007, 11:01:43 PM »
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Quote
I have a company which requires 90 day inspections (inspections every 90 days) from OSHA because of an accident we had 2 years ago. I truly believe they add value and are a needed to our industry. We run a very safe facility and are proud of it, anyone can come in any time, the employees? safety always comes first and we have an open policy. But dam it when OSHA calls I have to take some people off their regular assignments to go down to the manufacturing floor to make sure everything is in place so I feel comfortable, run a report, take time for meetings, take them out to lunch.
If it came to a vote tomorrow whether to discontinue OSHA as a department I would vote them to stay in a minute. But if they missed or canceled an inspection I wouldn?t be on the horn to reschedule.
The same with ISO 9000 certification. These guys are all up inside your underwear day and night until they are happy. But we get a rating which allows us to ship directly to another companies warehouse without inspection and saves us money.

So is it all about the money? The ISO 9000 definitely yes. OSHA, no I wouldn?t bitch if they missed a day, but I like knowing my people are safe and have the latest equipment.

So I guess I just told myself that the TBS?s should pursue a course to insure the safety of their kids and employees. Why they don?t do this I really don?t know, I can only speculate:

1) The regulation is very costly
2) doesn?t add value to what they do
3) wouldn?t help the kids or employees
4) They are trying to hide something

The answer is number 4.


The answer is more complicated than number 4.

Those who run the program believe strongly in what they are doing. Still, they are aware of the 'fringe' status of their methods. They feel that the regulators (and probably the general public) would 'misunderstand' what they are doing and consider it to be too harsh (abusive). They fear that this would cause the regulators to impose rules on them that would gut the effectiveness of their programs by watering down the intensity. This thinking is consistent with coercive persuasion. There is an in-group vs everyone outside mentality. A sort of group paranoia. The group doesn't think they should have to hide anything. They think they must hide everything, to protect the in-group. To be effective, they must work in secret.
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Offline Ganja

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« Reply #1103 on: January 18, 2007, 11:09:27 PM »
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Those who run the program believe strongly in what they are doing. Still, they are aware of the 'fringe' status of their methods. They feel that the regulators (and probably the general public) would 'misunderstand' what they are doing and consider it to be too harsh (abusive). They fear that this would cause the regulators to impose rules on them that would gut the effectiveness of their programs by watering down the intensity. This thinking is consistent with coercive persuasion. There is an in-group vs everyone outside mentality. A sort of group paranoia. The group doesn't think they should have to hide anything. They think they must hide everything, to protect the in-group. To be effective, they must work in secret.

Well said. This is exactly how it was at Straight. "Confidentiality" was strictly enforced.
"No talking behind backs" & "What you see here, do here, and say here remains here" or something like that...
Creepy!
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #1104 on: January 18, 2007, 11:10:08 PM »
Not to get too far off topic, but I have been following the news stories about the two boys rescued from that man in Missouri. I couldn't help but notice that the counselors have advised both sets of parents not to ask the boys any direct questions about what happened them while they were held captive. These experts feel that the boys must decide for themselves when they feel safe enough to discuss it and deal with the issues. To force the boys to answer questions or confront would be traumatic and harmful to them.

This strategy is in keeping with everything I've read about people having and respecting healthy boundaries. It is also in keeping with what I know about modern psychotherapy.

Progams, on the other hand, hold the belief that their subjects must be impelled (forced) to confess and be confronted with their past abuses in a group setting. Programs state the teens cannot deal with their issues until they are brought into the open and confronted head on. This belief is the exact opposite of the the advise being given to these parents.

I think this illustrates how far away programs are from meanstream psychology which unlike programs, has advanced a great deal over the past 30 years.
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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #1105 on: January 18, 2007, 11:19:13 PM »
Oh, more importantly, I would bet dollars to donuts that the methods used to keep that boy for four years without him running away fit the description of coercisive persuasion.

Melieu control causing regression and identification with the captor, followed by situational adaptation.

What works for programs, works for pedophiles.

This is what makes programs unethical. Their techniques are identical to those used by abductors to control their captives. No real difference. It is what makes them damaging to the captive's psyche. This is true no matter how high functioning the former captive appears to be.

It is frustrating that The Who does not get this.
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Offline Ganja

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« Reply #1106 on: January 18, 2007, 11:25:08 PM »
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Offline psy

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« Reply #1107 on: January 18, 2007, 11:25:39 PM »
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Oh, more importantly, I would bet dollars to donuts that the methods used to keep that boy for four years without him running away fit the description of coercisive persuasion.

Melieu control causing regression and identification with the captor, followed by situational adaptation.

What works for programs, works for pedophiles.

This is what makes programs unethical. Their techniques are identical to those used by abductors to control their captives. No real difference. It is what makes them damaging to the captive's psyche. This is true no matter how high functioning the former captive appears to be.

It is frustrating that The Who does not get this.


I saw that on the news tonight... And what oReilley said about it.  Idiot that man is.  My parents, as usual, were aggreeing with him, and I was trying to explain to them how similar the phenomenon is to programs...  I got laughed at as usual.  

Why was i watching Fox? Colbert was on.
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Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #1108 on: January 19, 2007, 12:31:49 AM »
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They fear that this would cause the regulators to impose rules on them that would gut the effectiveness of their programs by watering down the intensity


I have no doubt that your assessment as to how the programers feel about why they should be entitiled to self regulate, the problem however lies in the above statement. To date there is no effectiveness of their programs, thus they have nothing to lose.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #1109 on: January 19, 2007, 02:47:35 AM »
Sometimes I wonder if the argument about deaths or suicides seems to miss the point. lets just say no kid had ever dies at the hands of a programme. They just break a few arms and cause PTSD in a whole lot of kids. How is this OK?
i would like the who to answer the following questions:

What is the therapeudic benefit of strip searching ALL kids including those who have never taken drugs as ASR has a tradition of doing?

What is the therapeudic benefit of friendship bans?

What about workshops which have kids curled up in the foetal position crying? ASR again.

How does banning certain books help a kid to grow emotionally?

Why is emotional growth more important that intellectual growth anyway?

How can anything be therapeudic if the patient is not a willing participant?

How does physical restraint as shown to the world on Brat Camp (afterall Aspen are the industry leaders) fit in with medical principal "above all else do no harm"
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen