Author Topic: The Who  (Read 794768 times)

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Offline TheWho

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The Who
« Reply #585 on: January 12, 2007, 02:08:38 PM »
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
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Traditional, regular, no therapy boarding school....might suck, but not abusive. TBS that uses LGAT and confrontational tactics (ASR)? Abusive

Well we are getting closer, I?ll accept that for now.  As people come to see that ASR is not abusive, this will be a short divide to overcome.

Does ASR use LGAT or confrontational type therapy sessions or not?  Simple question, requiring a simple yes or no answer.


No they dont, at least when my daughter was there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #586 on: January 12, 2007, 02:16:19 PM »
In fact besides a recap at the end of the day in the Great Room" I think they called it,  there were no Large group gatherings at all.  Besides the class rooms the kids would meet in groups of 5 or 6.  I think to employ LGAT it was designed to accommodate 100's and to have an immediate impact over the period of a few days, sort of like EST in the early 80?s.  I think this is what you are asking.  ASR works with kids over a 12 to 16 month period which gives them time to guide them, letting them grow  and experience successes of their own.  Nothing is forced upon them, more of a natural process as I recall.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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« Reply #587 on: January 12, 2007, 02:16:26 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote
Traditional, regular, no therapy boarding school....might suck, but not abusive. TBS that uses LGAT and confrontational tactics (ASR)? Abusive

Well we are getting closer, I?ll accept that for now.  As people come to see that ASR is not abusive, this will be a short divide to overcome.

Does ASR use LGAT or confrontational type therapy sessions or not?  Simple question, requiring a simple yes or no answer.

No they dont, at least when my daughter was there.



http://www.swiftriver.com/personal_growth.htm

The Academy at Swift River is a 16-19 month long program with an average length of stay of 16 months. During our therapeutic boarding school residential program students progress in their daily academic classes and study halls, participate in Focus Groups, and complete an extensive four-part series of academic, social, personal growth, and family seminars.Students are challenged on a daily basis to raise their standards of academic and personal growth, to receive positive peer/faculty reinforcement, and to identify and develop their true self as it relates to peers, family, and community.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline RobertBruce

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The Who
« Reply #588 on: January 12, 2007, 02:19:27 PM »
Would your daughter say the same thing?
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #589 on: January 12, 2007, 02:26:04 PM »
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote
Traditional, regular, no therapy boarding school....might suck, but not abusive. TBS that uses LGAT and confrontational tactics (ASR)? Abusive

Well we are getting closer, I?ll accept that for now.  As people come to see that ASR is not abusive, this will be a short divide to overcome.

Does ASR use LGAT or confrontational type therapy sessions or not?  Simple question, requiring a simple yes or no answer.

No they dont, at least when my daughter was there.


http://www.swiftriver.com/personal_growth.htm

The Academy at Swift River is a 16-19 month long program with an average length of stay of 16 months. During our therapeutic boarding school residential program students progress in their daily academic classes and study halls, participate in Focus Groups, and complete an extensive four-part series of academic, social, personal growth, and family seminars.Students are challenged on a daily basis to raise their standards of academic and personal growth, to receive positive peer/faculty reinforcement, and to identify and develop their true self as it relates to peers, family, and community.



I attended the family seminars a few times.  What this was , besides a chance to get to know the other parents, was an update on how your child was dong.  A chance for them to ask questions, share their experiences.  Some kids were afraid to ask their parents certain questions and this was a safe place for them to ask.  They had their peers and counselors there to help them, parents could discuss their goals with their kids etc.  
It was very positive and valuable for us

Looks like they lengthened the stay.  It use to be 14-16 months, I believe.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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« Reply #590 on: January 12, 2007, 02:26:23 PM »
http://www.swiftriver.com/student_profile.htm

Quote
At the time of admission, however, these are not the descriptors that many would use to characterize them. Instead, they are typically seen as underachieving, impulsive, and oppositional and defiant. Many of our students begin their journey at Swift River possessing a low self-esteem, making poor decisions, lacking a direction in life, and not understanding the negative impact that they are having on their family and friends.



How exactly do they get these kids to "gain an understanding of the negative impact they are having on their family and friends"?

If they're "oppositional and defiant", how do you get and keep them there if not by force or coersion?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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« Reply #591 on: January 12, 2007, 02:32:56 PM »
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""

http://www.swiftriver.com/personal_growth.htm

The Academy at Swift River is a 16-19 month long program with an average length of stay of 16 months. During our therapeutic boarding school residential program students progress in their daily academic classes and study halls, participate in Focus Groups, and complete an extensive four-part series of academic, social, personal growth, and family seminars.Students are challenged on a daily basis to raise their standards of academic and personal growth, to receive positive peer/faculty reinforcement, and to identify and develop their true self as it relates to peers, family, and community.



THAT ^^^^^^^ is not a traditional boarding school.  THAT is LGAT based, EST based, Synanon based, psycho babble bullshit.  Any way you fucking cut it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #592 on: January 12, 2007, 02:33:54 PM »
For those that are new to this and are not familiar with ASR.  I think one misconception that goes along with TBS?s is that "the Kid needs to be fixed?.  This is hardly ever the case, it is always a family problem and ASR takes the approach of including the entire family,  everyone gets a chance to talk things out in a small group.  Even siblings come if they are of an appropriate age and want to be involved
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Offline ZenAgent

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The Who
« Reply #593 on: January 12, 2007, 02:34:31 PM »
Hey, Who...Was Don Vardell the administrator during your malingering association with ASR?  He was at Peninsula Village.  Does ASR change administrators as often as PV, like every 1 1/2 years?  

Love the even and measured tone, Whodude, but I'll bet your monitor's got cracks in it and your keyboard's a wreck from angrily whacking them before composing yourself and your replies.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2007, 02:35:34 PM by Guest »
\"Allah does not love the public utterance of hurtful speech, unless it be by one to whom injustice has been done; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing\" - The Qur\'an

_______________________________________________
A PV counselor\'s description of his job:

\"I\'m there to handle kids that are psychotic, suicidal, homicidal, or have commited felonies. Oh yeah, I am also there to take them down when they are rowdy so the nurse can give them the booty juice.\"

Offline Anne Bonney

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« Reply #594 on: January 12, 2007, 02:35:16 PM »
Now that you've been spanked, yet again.....I must be off.  Gotta get the boat ready to head down to Sarasota tomorrow.

 8-)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #595 on: January 12, 2007, 02:38:24 PM »
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Now that you've been spanked, yet again.....I must be off.  Gotta get the boat ready to head down to Sarasota tomorrow.

 8-)


Nah, its okay, I think it has been positive and we made some good progress.
Have a good trip.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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« Reply #596 on: January 12, 2007, 02:40:57 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
For those that are new to this and are not familiar with ASR.  I think one misconception that goes along with TBS?s is that "the Kid needs to be fixed?.  This is hardly ever the case, it is always a family problem and ASR takes the approach of including the entire family,  everyone gets a chance to talk things out in a small group.  Even siblings come if they are of an appropriate age and want to be involved



:roll:  :roll:


http://www.swiftriver.com/student_profile.htm

At the time of admission, however, these are not the descriptors that many would use to characterize them. Instead, they are typically seen as underachieving, impulsive, and oppositional and defiant. Many of our students begin their journey at Swift River possessing a low self-esteem, making poor decisions, lacking a direction in life, and not understanding the negative impact that they are having on their family and friends. Additionally, many of our students have experimented with drugs and/or alcohol, been sexually promiscuous, are acting out at home and in the classroom, and have shown decreasing respect for themselves and others. These students are also making poor choices of peers and have become unresponsive to authority figures.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Anne Bonney

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« Reply #597 on: January 12, 2007, 02:41:32 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Now that you've been spanked, yet again.....I must be off.  Gotta get the boat ready to head down to Sarasota tomorrow.

 8-)

Nah, its okay, I think it has been positive and we made some good progress.
Have a good trip.


Still think you're a moron, but thanks.  I will.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #598 on: January 12, 2007, 02:49:08 PM »
Quote
Hey, Who...Was Don Vardell the administrator during your malingering association with ASR? He was at Peninsula Village. Does ASR change administrators as often as PV, like every 1 1/2 years?

I don?t recall the name, but many staff names have changed in the past 3 years.

Quote
Love the even and measured tone, Whodude, but I'll bet your monitor's got cracks in it and your keyboard's a wreck from angrily whacking them before composing yourself and your replies.


That?s funny, Yeah, I hear ya.  My nephew was over and hooked me up to a 70? plasma screen.  We saw one at a party over Christmas where people were picking music off the screen.  It was kind of cool, so he tossed my monitor and now I have to throw something at it because it is across the room.  I can still bang my keyboard on the table, though.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #599 on: January 12, 2007, 02:53:46 PM »
The treatment modality of TBS's is a failed treatment, it is snake oil, it is inferior to real treatments that actually help.

Community based care is the gold standard for behavioral therapy and treatment.

I don't use the term "behavior modification" because of its Skinnerian implications, the poor understanding of laymen as to the ramifications of various Skinnerian techniques as applied to humans, and the poor judgment of a class of substandard providers in application of those techniques.

Most mental health patients have dysfunctional behaviors and maladaptice coping strategies that need to be replaced with functional, adaptive ones in treatment. Patients need help to perceive the problems some behaviors are causing them and to learn a variety of alternative behaviors and strategies they can select from--select for themselves--to get their needs and wants met without the bad effects of the problem behaviors.

Medical model RTC's have a valid place in the industry because psychiatry still has problems matching up individual patients with biomedical mental illnesses with the medications that will stabilize them without unliveable side effects. When a specific patient's medication match-up is exceptionally challenging to find, the trial and error process can take long enough that the patient needs an RTC for safety, or wants one for convenience, speed, or comfort. It has to be pretty bad for the patient to be more comfortable in an inpatient setting---inpatient mental health care is almost always no fun at all. At least medical model RTC's don't take pains to make the medical stabilization process more unpleasant for the patient.

Substance abuse inpatient facilities, voluntarily and for limited time, or court-ordered for limited time when substance abuse endangers others, have a valid place in the industry.

Behavior modification facilities are contra-indicated for unstabilized mental illness, and are contra-indicated for basic substance abuse for various reasons.

Behavior modification facilities are contra-indicated for criminality because without due process of law, there's too much risk of incarcerating those who are innocent or simple misdemeanants, which does far more harm than good.

Behavior modification facilities, being essentially privately-run penitentiaries---in the original meaning of the term---aren't necessarily contraindicated for felony criminal offenders convicted with due process of law. It's just that private prisons typically have a worse track record for cruel and unusual treatment of inmates, and other violations of inmate rights, than government-run prisons.

Misdemeanants who get jail time are better served with short, finite sentences in jails with other misdemeanants, not felons. They are usually better served with community service and ordered community-based care than jail time.

Behavior modification facilities are simply inferior to community based care for treating dysfunctional behaviors and maladaptive coping behaviors of non-criminal teen and adult patients.

The TBS is a treatment for nobody. Where it's not contra-indicated outright by the patient's serious problems, it's clearly inferior to other treatment options.

I, personally, do not believe it is abusive to require a teen with behavior problems to attend therapy sessions. I do believe it is abusive to punish a teen or anyone else for what they do or don't do in therapy sessions as long as they aren't attacking people or property. I do believe it is abusive to violate therapist-patient confidentiality for teens except for warning of threats of harm to self or others.

This is a very moderate position on mental health including involuntary care of teens, and a very moderate position on incarceration of teens who perpetrate crimes.

Opposing TBS's as a treatment modality for teen problems is no more extreme than opposing freudian psychoanalysis, past life regression therapy, or homeopathy as treatment modalities.

TBS's are frequently harmful, and at best substandard treatment for any psychiatric, psychological, or behavioral problem in the book.

It doesn't matter how well a TBS is run. For any problem that does require taking a kid out of the home, there are better options. For any problem that does not require taking a kid out of the home, taking the kid out of the home does more harm than good--as government literature reviews of extant studies have found.

If I'm morbidly obese, and I eat a calorie reducing 50% of calories from fat, 50 calories of carbs, and the rest from protein every day, I will lose weight. It's a stupid way to do it compared to the optimal solution of balanced diet, healthy glycemic index, moderately reduced calorie, and moderate exercise.

One can be a weight loss moderate and totally, adamantly opposed to starvation diets or diets lacking essential nutrients. An educated, sensible weight loss moderate is totally opposed to those things.

An educated, sensible mental health moderate not only can be but must be totally opposed to TBS's---because, like the crash diet, they're a failed, frequently dangerous, always sub-optimal treatment.

I would not, however, be opposed to a traditional prep school, open campus---meaning in a town or city and students completely free to go into town in their free time, that made appointments for students to be independently evaluated by board-certified adolescent psychiatrists upon parental request, that provided a counseling center for voluntary non-group student treatment with full HIPAA therapeutic confidentiality plus confidentiality from parents, that provided a counseling center with mandatory non-group attendance for students who had committed what would otherwise be an expulsion offense--mandatory being that attendance is a condition for continued enrollment--but still with full HIPAA therapeutic confidentiality plus confidentiality from parents and no punishment of any kind for attendance minus "satisfactory participation," or that worked in concert with a medical model RTC (even if owned by the same entity) only for genuinely voluntary inpatient care or involuntary inpatient care in situations that would qualify an adult for involuntary commitment. Any group therapy should always be strictly voluntary with no coercive measures whatsoever, and should only take place with full, informed consent of the patient.

In other words, Hogwarts with a good, ethical counseling center and timely medical care (psychiatry is medical), and ethical counseling as an alternative to expulsion, is fine.

Note that all Hogwarts thirteen year olds, with permission slips, are allowed Hogsmeade visits. If the school makes one of its selling points how good its mental health support is, it should require that permission slip as a condition of acceptance to the school to prevent the demonstrated hazards of therapeutic abuses.

The reason mandatory attendance without a requirement for satisfactory participation is not a paper tiger is that most people, if they absolutely have to be in the room regularly with a competent, ethical therapist, simply can't help interacting with the therapist. This results in people who don't have genuine problems being inconvenienced and annoyed, and people who do have genuine problems being helped in a way that is highly unlikely to do harm.

Any therapist or psychiatrist who doesn't have, "First, do no harm," as priority one of their ethics is a dangerous quack.

Julie[/i]
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