The Who

[TheWho]

I think the problem stems because I choose to focus on TBS?s and the reason I chose this is because that is what I am familiar with and my daughter had attended one.  I believe it would be useful to pull together numbers that would show how safe kids were in TBS vs the public sector.  As I was researching and pulling together the data I found the data available on the public sector was split between ?At School? and ?Away from School? and since the kids at a TBS spend the entire day there (24 hours) we combined the data and used the NCES data as comparison (so yes DJ is right we did change the set-up mid stream).  To try to specify if a child died during his academic time or on the way to class, at a TBS, would be too difficult and the data may not be available in all cases so combining them made the most sense.

I guess another reason not to just lump all regions of the Therapeutic industry together is that they may not have the same fatality rates and if a person is considering a specific area (i.e. TBS, wilderness, boot camp) they can see just that aspect if they like.

[RobertBruce]

No right now you are looking at Theraputic boarding schools. So far youve been so unwilling to establish parameters with anyone else that people are simply tuning out what you have to say on the matter. I'm only discussing it with you now because you expressed interest in working together. I'm curious to see how willing to do that you really are. My money at this point is betting that you can't handle it.


I have always just been looking at TBS's, Bob. I have been taking a look at the safety of TBS's vs the public sector. After this we can move on to Wilderness or Bootcamps if that suits everyone. I would eventually like to cover the entire industry so we have a complete picture.

My statement was meant to emphasis that you were focused on TBS's, not "we" are focused on TBS's. Sorry for any confusion.

I guess another reason not to just lump all regions of the Therapeutic industry together is that they may not have the same fatality rates and if a person is considering a specific area (i.e. TBS, wilderness, boot camp) they can see just that aspect if they like

Fine, this is the first legitimate reason youve given which I appreciate. That being said though can you understand why some parents might want all the options left open to them, and that by withholding that information you are effectively trying to make the choice for them?

Why not present the entire picture and then allow the parents to decide what they are and what they are not interested in?

[TheWho]

I don?t think we should withhold any information.  I know some of my analogies piss people off (or miss the mark), but, say someone was going in for an operation and the doctor told her that it will be fine don?t worry 99% of all patients recover from their operation.  But what he failed to tell her was her specific operation had a 80% mortality rate.  I thought it would be of value to break it down into categoires so the parents could look at the area they are chosing for their kid and see if it was safe.
My intention is to not discard any information, I am not trying to steer parents away from boot camps and have them send there kids  to TBS?s, it was just a beginning.  If my daughter had gone to a boot camp I would have probably chosen to measure them first?. Does that make sense?

[RobertBruce]

It do see what youre saying but do you see where Im coming from. This is not a well known industry to people who have not experienced it. Its not as if youll find alot of commericals on television telling you to ship your kid off if he misbehaves. That being the case many parents come into this industry not knowing what to expect and what their options are.

A good analogy might be this; you're a waiter at a resturant, two people come in who have never eaten at your place before. When you bring them the menu youve purposely marked out several items on the menu. When they ask you why you state, "Oh you won't like those items, I can tell." The truth is though you cant tell, youre denying them options based on what you think they want or need.

I feel they should be given all the options and the truth behind each one.

How about this, do it my way and if in the end its too confusing or disjointed we'll go back and do it your way section by section. Ill even help you and wont say a bad word about it.

Agreed?

[TheWho]

Maybe something like this?

July 1, 1999 thru June 2000  (Test Table)

Public Sector: -------There where 1,537 Homicides  and 1,415 suicides , X other, X Total

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS -------------------There where 0 Homicides, 2 suicides,   0 accidental, 0 other, 2 Total

Boot camp ----------There where X Homicides, X suicides, X accidental, 0 other, X Total

Wilderness ----------There where X Homicides, X suicides, X accidental, 0 other, X Total

Mental Facility -----There where X Homicides, X suicides, X accidental, 0 other, X Total

Other -----------------There where X Homicides, X suicides,   X accidental, 0 other, X Total

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry ---There where X Homicides , X suicides, X accidental, 0 other, X Total

[Troll Control]

Sure, that ought to keep you busy for about three or four years.  Go right ahead and get going on it.  We could all use a break from you.

[RobertBruce]

Maybe something like this?

July 1, 1999 thru June 2000  (Test Table)

Public Sector: -------There where 1,537 Homicides  and 1,415 suicides , X other, X Total

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS -------------------There where 0 Homicides, 2 suicides,   0 accidental, 0 other, 2 Total

Boot camp ----------There where X Homicides, X suicides, X accidental, 0 other, X Total

Wilderness ----------There where X Homicides, X suicides, X accidental, 0 other, X Total

Mental Facility -----There where X Homicides, X suicides, X accidental, 0 other, X Total

Other -----------------There where X Homicides, X suicides,   X accidental, 0 other, X Total

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry ---There where X Homicides , X suicides, X accidental, 0 other, X Total

I think thats reasonable.

[TheWho]

Can you/anyone think of categories we can add to the table?

[Deborah]

Who, your analogies don't "piss people off". They're just stupid. As          are Spaeth's in this argument against state regulation of programs in Montana.

The only programs on the record opposing the legislation (for state regulation) were Spring Creek Lodge Academy of Thompson Falls and Monarch School of Heron.

Only two people verbally testified in opposition to the bill. The first was Gary Spaeth, a lobbyist for the Montana Alternative Adolescent Private Programs (MAAPP), an organization Spaeth said represents ?between 10 and 12? programs operating in Montana (Spaeth couldn?t recall which Montana schools were members of MAAPP, nor could Patrick McKenna, director of Monarch School and the organization?s president).

?I appear here as an opponent of this particular bill, but a very light opponent,? Spaeth said, adding that he agreed ?with everything that was said? in previous testimony. ?We applaud this bill. We recognize the need in this state for licensure.?  Yet Spaeth expressed concern over the bill?s particulars, including its prohibition on the transfer or sale of licenses.

(Imagine that!)[/i]in which case then I don?t feel like the program voice is really going to be heard as well,? McKenna said.

But Sen. Carol Williams of Missoula thought McKenna?s concerns were unjustified.

?I think this bill goes a long way to making it so that it?s more transparent, there are more peopled involved in it, and it isn?t controlled by the industry or a few people in the industry or a few areas within the industry,? Williams said. (self-regulation)

Sen. Jim Elliott of Trout Creek plans to introduce a competing bill, Spaeth said, that addresses some of the details to MAAPP?s satisfaction. At press time that bill was still in draft form.

Meanwhile, everyone at Friday?s hearing seemed to agree that serious regulation of Montana?s teen help industry is long overdue.

?As one parent wrote me, ?the state of Montana needs to step in with regulations which ensure safety,?? Schmidt said in closing, ??because when it comes to unregulated boarding schools for disturbed adolescents, they are sure sitting on a powder keg.??

[TheWho]

Well, I said sometimes my analogies ?piss people off? because I usually get unusual or angry responses after I use them, like yours just then.  The analogy you posted I don?t feel was intended to be offensive to Sen. Kim Gillan.  Many people use analogies to try to make a point and are not received well, but typically the intention is to draw a parallel where none exists.
I have drawn criticism by comparing children to cars and other objects.  My intention (and other people when this is used) isn?t to belittle the child but to show a relationship between unrelated subject matters where one isn?t obvious and by doing this the person hopes to make a point.
But we do run the risk of offending people as it appears Gary Spaeth did.

[TheWho]

July 1, 2000 thru June 2001   -------There where 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides   , X other, X Total  

TBS ---------------------There where 0 Homicides, 1 suicides,   0 accidental, 0 other, 1 Total

Wilderness ----------There where 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, 0 accidental, 1 other, 1 Total

RTC --------------------There where 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, 0 accidental, 2 other, 2 Total

Boot Camp ----------There where 0Homicides, 0 suicides, 0 accidental, 0 other, 0 Total

Other ------------------There where 0 Homicides, 0 suicides,   0 accidental, 1 other, 1 Total

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -----There where 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, 0 accidental, 4 other, 5 Total

TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
NCES ? National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles, posts and PM?s
X -- Incomplete

[RobertBruce]

Why are we are we starting with 00-01 instead of 99-00?

[TheWho]

Why are we are we starting with 00-01 instead of 99-00?

Because I am missing the names from my data base and cant provide Back up data for that year.  I will post it when I find them.  Do you possibly have that info?

So I have created a "Data File" here on fornits so it will not happen again.

[psy]

Why are we are we starting with 00-01 instead of 99-00?

Because I am missing the names from my data base and cant provide Back up data for that year.  I will post it when I find them.  Do you possibly have that info?

So I have created a "Data File" here on fornits so it will not happen again.

Did I ever mention I used to work in IT.  In addition to being a sys-admin, rack monkey, and general purpose tech, i was also the resident DBA (database admin)...  for the SQL database I designed...  And yes i wrote the frontend as well... in a language I HATE and refuse to ever ... ever use again.

What software are you using to analyze/store the data you are collecting?  Notepad?  I am actually curious, considering losing just a single year is an impressive feat?  How did you manage?

Most of this thread I ignore completely.  I just happen to find what you did mildly amusing.

[TheWho]

Why are we are we starting with 00-01 instead of 99-00?

Because I am missing the names from my data base and cant provide Back up data for that year.  I will post it when I find them.  Do you possibly have that info?

So I have created a "Data File" here on fornits so it will not happen again.

Did I ever mention I used to work in IT.  In addition to being a sys-admin, rack monkey, and general purpose tech, i was also the resident DBA (database admin)...  for the SQL database I designed...  And yes i wrote the frontend as well... in a language I HATE and refuse to ever ... ever use again.

What software are you using to analyze/store the data you are collecting?  Notepad?  I am actually curious, considering losing just a single year is an impressive feat?  How did you manage?

Most of this thread I ignore completely.  I just happen to find what you did mildly amusing.

Why amusing?  I am trying to organize some data so that people can access it.  Thought I would throw it up on Fornits so others could contribute and add names as they come across them.  I Just asked Ginger if she had any suggestion on where I could place the data for safe keeping and so it can be retrieved.  Not looking to create a relational database or anything.. any suggestions?

We have SQL on our system and I like Access as a front end (for my stuff).  I was told its a pig on memory but I can get reports and changes done quickly.  What did you build the front end with?

Most of this thread is not worth reading I agree, you could compress it down to 25 posts if you eliminated the spam, trolls and flame wars.  I havnt been working on this for a year, I have been out of the country for a good part of 2006.